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Post by DC-Fan on May 16, 2017 7:32:05 GMT
DC-Fan you keep acting like Bucky had full control over his actions as Winter Soldier, when all the information shown in both TWS and CW state he did not have control over his actions and that it was all HYDRA's doing. It's not a Darth Vader situation where the character was emotionally manipulated to join the dark side but hypnotized and experimented on to be a weapon, in short no free will to act on their own. And like I said before, that's all a question for a jury to decide and not for Captain America to unilaterally decide on his own. That's what trials are for and that's why the U.S. Constitution guarantees every citizen who is charged with a crime the right to a trial by jury. But Captain America doesn't want that because he wants to be a tyrant (just like Hitler and Stalin) and he wants to unilaterally decide what's best for the people (just like Hitler and Stalin unilaterally decided what was best for their people). Captain America couldn't wait for Bucky to stand trial, or continue to fight for his freedom because Zemo made that impossible when he infiltrated the prison and set him free And Captain America found him again, Captain America could've brought him in so he could have his trial and defend himself in a court of law. But instead, Captain America aided and abetted a murderer to escape from the law. They tried to tell everybody else something was up, but they were deadest on Bucky going back to jail. Because it was no more Iron Man's job to unilaterally decide Bucky's guilt any more than it was Captain America's job to unilaterally decide. It's the job of a jury to decide. Iron Man's job was simply to detain Bucky so that he could be held for trial, where a jury could decide because that's what trials are for that's why the U.S. Constitution guarantees every citizen who is charged with a crime the right to a trial by jury. But Captain America doesn't want that because he wants to be a tyrant (just like Hitler and Stalin) and he wants to unilaterally decide what's best for the people (just like Hitler and Stalin unilaterally decided what was best for their people).
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Post by ThatGuy on May 16, 2017 13:11:50 GMT
I really think he only half pays attention to the movies he watches. He fills in the blanks with his own ideas. I think that's why he likes the DC movies more. The DCEU is so dumbed down that you can easily fill in the blanks.
Also, he took this thread away from where it's suppose to be, The Fantastic Four in the MCU.
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Post by formersamhmd on May 16, 2017 13:23:42 GMT
The Accords are about taking the Avengers and making them nothing but living weapons instead of actually being able to help people. It's entirely about making sure they can't do their jobs effectively. No, the Sokovia Accords are about making sure the Avengers do their jobs better and more effectively and not endangering civilian lives by doing something reckless, like chasing Crossbones through a crowded market where civilians could be hurt or killed. And that's how the people in the building got killed when Scarlett Witch set off the bomb that blew out the side of the building. Because the Avengers recklessly chased Crossbones through a crowded market where civilians would be hurt or killed. Resulting in the deaths of the people in that building who wouldn't have died if not for the reckless actions of the Avengers. Also, your comparison of the Sokovia Accords to slavery is weak. None of the Avengers were forced to sign the Sokovia Accords. If they didn't want to sign the Sokovia Accords, then they would be allowed to retire and quit the Avengers without any reprisal from the government. I've never heard of any slavery in which a slave was allowed to retire and quit being a slave if he didn't want to be a slave anymore so your comparison of the Sokovia Accords to slavery is weak. No, the Accords are about making sure they can't do their jobs effectively just to make the Governments feel more in control. MORE people will die with the Accords then without them. Crossbone would've killed more people if the Avengers hadn't been there. Maybe not the people in that building, but peoples in that city would've died regardless. More than the ones in the building. They weren't going to just be "retired". For those with actual powers, they'd end up with permanent house arrest. "Retired" was just a soft term.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 16:11:12 GMT
DC-Fan you keep acting like Bucky had full control over his actions as Winter Soldier, when all the information shown in both TWS and CW state he did not have control over his actions and that it was all HYDRA's doing. It's not a Darth Vader situation where the character was emotionally manipulated to join the dark side but hypnotized and experimented on to be a weapon, in short no free will to act on their own. And like I said before, that's all a question for a jury to decide and not for Captain America to unilaterally decide on his own. That's what trials are for and that's why the U.S. Constitution guarantees every citizen who is charged with a crime the right to a trial by jury. But Captain America doesn't want that because he wants to be a tyrant (just like Hitler and Stalin) and he wants to unilaterally decide what's best for the people (just like Hitler and Stalin unilaterally decided what was best for their people). Captain America couldn't wait for Bucky to stand trial, or continue to fight for his freedom because Zemo made that impossible when he infiltrated the prison and set him free And Captain America found him again, Captain America could've brought him in so he could have his trial and defend himself in a court of law. But instead, Captain America aided and abetted a murderer to escape from the law. They tried to tell everybody else something was up, but they were deadest on Bucky going back to jail. Because it was no more Iron Man's job to unilaterally decide Bucky's guilt any more than it was Captain America's job to unilaterally decide. It's the job of a jury to decide. Iron Man's job was simply to detain Bucky so that he could be held for trial, where a jury could decide because that's what trials are for that's why the U.S. Constitution guarantees every citizen who is charged with a crime the right to a trial by jury. But Captain America doesn't want that because he wants to be a tyrant (just like Hitler and Stalin) and he wants to unilaterally decide what's best for the people (just like Hitler and Stalin unilaterally decided what was best for their people). DC-Fan: still a nunce
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on May 17, 2017 17:25:20 GMT
DC-Fan, its not up for the jury to decide if Bucky was acting on his own or being controlled because there's nothing to open a debate about - All HYDRA records show that he was used as nothing but a puppet for their own doing, basically a robot programmed for specific tasks and very little else. If the evidence is all there and it reads concretely with no conflicting evidence then there is nothing to debate about.
Captain America and Falcon didn't take Bucky back to the prison center because they were trying to figure out what Zemo was up to, as well as find out who really set off the bomb in Wakanda, a crime Bucky was falsely accused of for.
Steve Rogers' ideals are based on how America perceived the very best a person could be in WWII, he was the symbol of America's spirit, and he was raised well to be a good person to stand up for the little guy( despite being one himself). Him disagreeing with current American political matters doesn't make him a tyrant, Rogers has disagreed with current American politics since he was brought back in the comics in the 1960's. Heck, he also gave up being Captain America for a little while in the 70's after finding out how crooked the White House was.
OK, BACK to the Fantastic Four in the MCU...Has anyone seen MovieBob's videos on how he'd approach a Marvel F4 movie? It's not bad, I don't regularly agree with Chipman, but his take wasn't bad at all, like his approach to The Puppet Master.
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Post by DC-Fan on May 17, 2017 17:51:06 GMT
DC-Fan, its not up for the jury to decide if Bucky was acting on his own or being controlled because there's nothing to open a debate about - All HYDRA records show that he was used as nothing but a puppet for their own doing, basically a robot programmed for specific tasks and very little else. If the evidence is all there and it reads concretely with no conflicting evidence then there is nothing to debate about. It is for a jury to decide. Howard and Maria Stark were murdered. Regardless of why Bucky did it, there has to be a jury to decide if Bucky is guilty of the murders or if Bucky is not guilty either because the murders were justified (e.g. self-defense or defense of others) or because there were mitigating circumstances (e.g. not guilty be reason of insanity). It's no different than when a cop shoots and kills someone in the line of duty. Regardless of whether the person shot and killed was a criminal suspect or an innocent bystander and regardless of whether or not it was obvious that the shooting was justified, IA still has to look at the evidence and decide if the shooting was justified. Likewise, regardless of what evidence there is supporting Bucky's claim that he was brainwashed, there still has to be a jury to look at the evidence and decide if Bucky is guilty. In other words, it's still a question for a jury to decide and not for Captain America to unilaterally decide. Captain America and Falcon didn't take Bucky back to the prison center because they were trying to figure out what Zemo was up to, as well as find out who really set off the bomb in Wakanda, a crime Bucky was falsely accused of for. And Cap and Falcon can still carry out their investigation independent of Bucky. Just because Bucky is detained and held in a prison cell doesn't prevent nor stop Cap and Falcon from carrying out their investigation. Steve Rogers' ideals are based on how America perceived the very best a person could be in WWII, he was the symbol of America's spirit And 1 of the foundations of the American justice system is that every citizen who is charged with a crime has the constitutional right to defend themselves in a trial by a jury of one's peers. But Captain America clearly is opposed to that very foundation of the American justice system and clearly doesn't believe in trial by jury. Him disagreeing with current American political matters doesn't make him a tyrant Cap wanting the Avengers to unilaterally decide what's best for the people (just like Hilter and Stalin unilaterally decided what was best for their people) instead of the elected representatives of the people does indeed make Captain America a tyrant. That's the very definition of a tyrant - someone who is opposed to democracy and wants unilateral power to decide what's best for the people. BACK to the Fantastic Four in the MCU A moot discussion since the Fantastic Four aren't part of the MCU and never will be. It would be like asking would Burger King have more customers if Burger King started selling Big Macs. There's a much better chance of an X-Men/Fantastic Four crossover movie than there is of a Fantastic Four movie in MCU.
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Post by Atom(ica) Discord on May 17, 2017 17:55:37 GMT
DC-Fan, its not up for the jury to decide if Bucky was acting on his own or being controlled because there's nothing to open a debate about - All HYDRA records show that he was used as nothing but a puppet for their own doing, basically a robot programmed for specific tasks and very little else. If the evidence is all there and it reads concretely with no conflicting evidence then there is nothing to debate about. It is for a jury to decide. Howard and Maria Stark were murdered. Regardless of why Bucky did it, there has to be a jury to decide if Bucky is guilty of the murders or if Bucky is not guilty either because the murders were justified (e.g. self-defense or defense of others) or because there were mitigating circumstances. It's no different than when a cop shoots and kills someone in the line of duty. Regardless of whether the person shot and killed was a criminal suspect or an innocent bystander and regardless of whether or not it was obvious that the shooting was justified, IA still has to look at the evidence and decide if the shooting was justified. Likewise, regardless of what evidence there is supporting Bucky's claim that he was brainwashed, there still has to be a jury to look at the evidence and decide if Bucky is guilty. In other words, it's still a question for a jury to decide and not for Captain America to unilaterally decide. Captain America and Falcon didn't take Bucky back to the prison center because they were trying to figure out what Zemo was up to, as well as find out who really set off the bomb in Wakanda, a crime Bucky was falsely accused of for. And Cap and Falcon can still carry out their investigation independent of Bucky. Just because Bucky is detained and held in a prison cell doesn't prevent nor stop Cap and Falcon from carrying out their investigation. Steve Rogers' ideals are based on how America perceived the very best a person could be in WWII, he was the symbol of America's spirit And 1 of the foundations of the American justice system is that every citizen who is charged with a crime has the constitutional right to defend themselves in a trial by a jury of one's peers. But Captain America clearly is opposed to that very foundation of the American justice system and clearly doesn't believe in trial by jury. Him disagreeing with current American political matters doesn't make him a tyrant Cap wanting the Avengers to unilaterally decide what's best for the people (just like Hilter and Stalin unilaterally decided what was best for their people) instead of the elected representatives of the people does indeed make Captain America a tyrant. That's the very definition of a tyrant - someone who is opposed to democracy and wants unilateral power to decide what's best for the people. BACK to the Fantastic Four in the MCU A moot discussion since the Fantastic Four aren't part of the MCU and never will be. It would be like asking would Burger King have more customers if Burger King started selling Big Macs. There's a much better chance of an X-Men/Fantastic Four crossover movie than there is of a Fantastic Four movie in MCU. SaveSave
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 21:04:41 GMT
DC-Fan, its not up for the jury to decide if Bucky was acting on his own or being controlled because there's nothing to open a debate about - All HYDRA records show that he was used as nothing but a puppet for their own doing, basically a robot programmed for specific tasks and very little else. If the evidence is all there and it reads concretely with no conflicting evidence then there is nothing to debate about. Captain America and Falcon didn't take Bucky back to the prison center because they were trying to figure out what Zemo was up to, as well as find out who really set off the bomb in Wakanda, a crime Bucky was falsely accused of for. Steve Rogers' ideals are based on how America perceived the very best a person could be in WWII, he was the symbol of America's spirit, and he was raised well to be a good person to stand up for the little guy( despite being one himself). Him disagreeing with current American political matters doesn't make him a tyrant, Rogers has disagreed with current American politics since he was brought back in the comics in the 1960's. Heck, he also gave up being Captain America for a little while in the 70's after finding out how crooked the White House was. OK, BACK to the Fantastic Four in the MCU...Has anyone seen MovieBob's videos on how he'd approach a Marvel F4 movie? It's not bad, I don't regularly agree with Chipman, but his take wasn't bad at all, like his approach to The Puppet Master. Yes, I have, and his ideas were pretty solid. Except for making Sue's film into a romance movie. We can have a Sue Storm-centric movie without that.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on May 17, 2017 21:14:21 GMT
DC-Fan, it isn't real life. Bucky is not a real person, HYDRA is not a real organization, pretty much everything in the MCU has little to no relation to how things work out in the real world. A trial is unnecessary given what we the audience have been given in the information from the movies and the events taking place made such a situation impossible to happen.
You are literally the only person I've seen on the entire internet who is calling Captain America in the movies a tyrant, nobody else is making this claim except for you, want to know why? Because your argument is completely unsubstantiated and silly, and most of your reasoning is from your own twisted perspective that your imagination created.
Once again, the topic of discussion isn't asking when the rights to the Fantastic Four will go back to Marvel Studios, the question is WHAT-IF. You know what what-if means, right? You are already using your own imagination to say Captain America as portrayed in the movies is a blood thirsty, disgusting tyrant so what is wrong with everybody else using their own imaginations to think of how an MCU Fantastic Four film would and could be like?
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