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Post by hi224 on Sept 8, 2020 10:22:57 GMT
Iago's motivations? Well, he didn't get what he wanted and thought he was going to get: the position that went to Michael Cassio. From Iago's point of view, the interloper, Othello, has taken everything: the hottest bachelorette, all the glories of war, the top position in the army, the ability to appoint who he wants into open jobs. And of course he's incensed at Cassio's appointment - after all, Othello had been beside him in battle. I always tell my students to think about, when this is true, Othello DIDN'T appoint Iago. What did O see? But Iago is almost an agent of chaos, he doesn't seem to at all entirely care about promotions or honors, he seems to really enjoy manipulating events, I feel like him simply being jealous simplifies his motives too much.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Sept 11, 2020 23:26:11 GMT
The reason I dislike it is because there’s no reason Shakespeare couldn’t have written his plays. Shakespeare along with his collaborators were in the theatre and may gave done a lot improv writing scenes in the process rather than a lonely playwright like David Mamet, but a team effort to put into production and sell tickets rather than to create great art. It possible Shakespeare never wrote any of the plays entirely by himself. De Vere, Marlowe, and others probably contributed somewhat. I think the other theory is Marlowe wrote the plays and used Shakespeare as a beard to not draw attention to his homosexuality. The Marlowe theory is interesting; I'd never heard that one. But yep, it's a certainty that there was a lot of cross-collaboration among the playwrights of Shakes' time. It's probable that many of the plays of that era had more than one writer's hand in on them, the Bard definitely included. One of the reasons that I object to the de Vere theory--among the many there exist to object to--is its plain snobbery: the inference that only someone of royal/aristocratic birth could have written of the lives of kings and princes as Shakespeare did. This supposes the notion that the plays are some manner of manuals of courtly etiquette first and foremost, as opposed to the penetrating psychological studies they frequently are. That they are formatted within the context of royalty is no more than the adherence to the centuries old notion, come down from Greek tragedy, that only those of noble birth could be the proper exponents for this type of character-driven drama. Shakespeare, whoever he was, did not of necessity need to be a member of the aristocracy to have written them. Pretty much hit the nail on the head. I was disappointed to find out Keanu Reeves supports this theory.
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mmexis
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Post by mmexis on Sept 16, 2020 2:31:50 GMT
Iago's motivations? Well, he didn't get what he wanted and thought he was going to get: the position that went to Michael Cassio. From Iago's point of view, the interloper, Othello, has taken everything: the hottest bachelorette, all the glories of war, the top position in the army, the ability to appoint who he wants into open jobs. And of course he's incensed at Cassio's appointment - after all, Othello had been beside him in battle. I always tell my students to think about, when this is true, Othello DIDN'T appoint Iago. What did O see? But Iago is almost an agent of chaos, he doesn't seem to at all entirely care about promotions or honors, he seems to really enjoy manipulating events, I feel like him simply being jealous simplifies his motives too much. I disagree, nothing has hurt him more than NOT getting that promotion. Instead of giving it to someone who had proven himself in battle it was given to a "mathematician". Iago is not jealous of Cassio getting the position, he is angry and wants revenge. Yes, he does enjoy manipulating all the "lesser thans" and doesn't hesitate to let us know it.
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Post by hi224 on Sept 16, 2020 2:57:14 GMT
But Iago is almost an agent of chaos, he doesn't seem to at all entirely care about promotions or honors, he seems to really enjoy manipulating events, I feel like him simply being jealous simplifies his motives too much. I disagree, nothing has hurt him more than NOT getting that promotion. Instead of giving it to someone who had proven himself in battle it was given to a "mathematician". Iago is not jealous of Cassio getting the position, he is angry and wants revenge. Yes, he does enjoy manipulating all the "lesser thans" and doesn't hesitate to let us know it. But Iago himself doesn't seem to be able to understand or remember at all why hes committing his actions, at several points throughout the play, and he never gives a real answer. This is what makes Iago the most impenetrable high villain in literature. Why? Early in the play, Iago tries to manufacture reasons for his villainy, but it is clear that he doesn't really know. He has reasons, but they are after-the-fact of his malice. And in the final act, Shakespeare again gives him a chance to explain, and he choses silence. I don't think he really knows - what he does know is that all the "good" people around him will manufacture much better reasons for his vile actions than he could. He seems amused at the process - watching those good people assign him motives so that there is some cassis-belli, some wrong that motivates him. It is laughable that they will take comfort that such behavior has reasons. It is a chilling thought that Iago may have no reasons at all, that there may be monsters among us. He has a Hannibal Lecter quality. He does these things for the same reason a man scratches his itchy ass in front of a horse who cannot reach that constantly-itchy part of his body. Because he can. And he doesn't think twice about it.
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marco266
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Post by marco266 on Sept 16, 2020 20:57:12 GMT
I disagree, nothing has hurt him more than NOT getting that promotion. Iago is not jealous of Cassio getting the position, he is angry and wants revenge. It is a chilling thought that Iago may have no reasons at all, that there may be monsters among us. Bingo. What makes Hitchcock's THE BIRDS so frightening and dark? Answer: no reason is ever given for why the birds do what they do. There was no science experiment gone wrong; there is no behavior of man that leads to what the birds do; pollution didn't cause it.... The birds do what they do and no reason is given. There is no reason. They just do what they do in that film. That's the most chilling aspect of that film. I'd say the same applies to Iago. Richard III and Macbeth have their reasons. Iago may have none. And, yes, that's a chilling thought, as you say.
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Post by hi224 on Sept 17, 2020 1:45:35 GMT
It is a chilling thought that Iago may have no reasons at all, that there may be monsters among us. Bingo. What makes Hitchcock's THE BIRDS so frightening and dark? Answer: no reason is ever given for why the birds do what they do. There was no science experiment gone wrong; there is no behavior of man that leads to what the birds do; pollution didn't cause it.... The birds do what they do and no reason is given. There is no reason. They just do what they do in that film. That's the most chilling aspect of that film. I'd say the same applies to Iago. Richard III and Macbeth have their reasons. Iago may have none. And, yes, that's a chilling thought, as you say. Arguably we never get a true motive from Richard either.
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Post by hi224 on Sept 20, 2020 22:51:43 GMT
But Iago is almost an agent of chaos, he doesn't seem to at all entirely care about promotions or honors, he seems to really enjoy manipulating events, I feel like him simply being jealous simplifies his motives too much. I disagree, nothing has hurt him more than NOT getting that promotion. Instead of giving it to someone who had proven himself in battle it was given to a "mathematician". Iago is not jealous of Cassio getting the position, he is angry and wants revenge. Yes, he does enjoy manipulating all the "lesser thans" and doesn't hesitate to let us know it. problem is that every time Iago talks about his hatred of Othello, he gives a different reason for it. First it was the promotion, then it was that he thinks Othello slept with Emilia, then it’s that he wants to sleep with Desdemona. His hatred of Cassio is equally baffling, first it’s the promotion, then it’s because Cassio is so beautiful that it makes him feel ugly. Add to that, the fact that Iago lies so god damned much, that you can’t trust anything he says. And add to it, that when he has the opportunity to actually tell Othello why he hates him, when he has no more reason to hide his feelings, when he can finally open up and get his hatred off his chest, he refuses to do so. I’m no scholar, but I’ve personally never found Iago’s motivations simple or easily understood and a lot of people much smarter than me have also found his motivations opaque and complex.
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Post by llanwydd on Sept 20, 2020 23:38:14 GMT
Bingo. What makes Hitchcock's THE BIRDS so frightening and dark? Answer: no reason is ever given for why the birds do what they do. There was no science experiment gone wrong; there is no behavior of man that leads to what the birds do; pollution didn't cause it.... The birds do what they do and no reason is given. There is no reason. They just do what they do in that film. That's the most chilling aspect of that film. I'd say the same applies to Iago. Richard III and Macbeth have their reasons. Iago may have none. And, yes, that's a chilling thought, as you say. Arguably we never get a true motive from Richard either. I think he explains the motive in his opening speech. "Therefore, since I cannot prove a lover to entertain these fair, well-spoken days, I am determined to prove a villain and hate the idle pleasures of these days". The reason for his motive is that he is "cheated of feature by dissembling nature...sent before my time into this breathing world scarce half made up". He is identifying nature as an intelligent force and blaming it for his physical defects.
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Post by hi224 on Sept 21, 2020 1:32:27 GMT
Arguably we never get a true motive from Richard either. I think he explains the motive in his opening speech. "Therefore, since I cannot prove a lover to entertain these fair, well-spoken days, I am determined to prove a villain and hate the idle pleasures of these days". The reason for his motive is that he is "cheated of feature by dissembling nature...sent before my time into this breathing world scarce half made up". He is identifying nature as an intelligent force and blaming it for his physical defects. perhaps.
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Post by Prime etc. on Sept 21, 2020 21:13:13 GMT
How would one say "hey bud, let's party" in Shakespearen lingo?
My guess:
Oh cherished blossom of my adoration, shall we commence a bacchanalia to court the Heavens?
Or "I'll be back."
Like the wayward progeny of Laertes, by Calypso's bosom held, after a score he doth alight upon his kingdom's shores again, so I too shall venture back to this august station.
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marco266
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Post by marco266 on Sept 22, 2020 0:14:24 GMT
Richard III and Macbeth have their reasons. Arguably we never get a true motive from Richard. Yes, we do. He had a vision he would end up here: And he did:
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 28, 2020 15:19:31 GMT
Arguably we never get a true motive from Richard either. I think he explains the motive in his opening speech. "Therefore, since I cannot prove a lover to entertain these fair, well-spoken days, I am determined to prove a villain and hate the idle pleasures of these days". The reason for his motive is that he is "cheated of feature by dissembling nature...sent before my time into this breathing world scarce half made up". He is identifying nature as an intelligent force and blaming it for his physical defects. Sounds similar to Don John's, "It must not be denied but I am a plain-dealing villain." Villainy for villainy's sake and any excuse or reason is incidental.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 28, 2020 17:54:56 GMT
I think he explains the motive in his opening speech. "Therefore, since I cannot prove a lover to entertain these fair, well-spoken days, I am determined to prove a villain and hate the idle pleasures of these days". The reason for his motive is that he is "cheated of feature by dissembling nature...sent before my time into this breathing world scarce half made up". He is identifying nature as an intelligent force and blaming it for his physical defects. Sounds similar to Don John's, "It must not be denied but I am a plain-dealing villain." Villainy for villainy's sake and any excuse or reason is incidental. One of the things that distinguishes Shakespeare from his contemporaries is the attempt to show some sort of psychology-rooted motivation behind the villainy. it may not be plain or even always credible, but it's usually there in some form. He hardly ever gave the audience a character who was malign with no discernible motive whatsoever.
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Post by hi224 on Sept 29, 2020 7:26:11 GMT
Sounds similar to Don John's, "It must not be denied but I am a plain-dealing villain." Villainy for villainy's sake and any excuse or reason is incidental. One of the things that distinguishes Shakespeare from his contemporaries is the attempt to show some sort of psychology-rooted motivation behind the villainy. it may not be plain or even always credible, but it's usually there in some form. He hardly ever gave the audience a character who was malign with no discernible motive whatsoever. albeit theres actually Iago who we still don't know the reasoning.
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Post by amyghost on Sept 29, 2020 20:28:19 GMT
One of the things that distinguishes Shakespeare from his contemporaries is the attempt to show some sort of psychology-rooted motivation behind the villainy. it may not be plain or even always credible, but it's usually there in some form. He hardly ever gave the audience a character who was malign with no discernible motive whatsoever. albeit theres actually Iago who we still don't know the reasoning. Iago may be the most mystifying villain in Shakespeare if you count the number of words that have been devoted to unravelling his motives.
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marco266
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Post by marco266 on Sept 29, 2020 21:34:51 GMT
Jeez, is this entire Shakespeare thread going to be about one character?
Folks, there are 37 plays to discuss; 154 sonnets; 2 narrative poems; and there are a boatload of films, operas, ballets based on his works.
But all anybody here wants to talk about is this guy Iago. Two pages of it already. Anybody here read anything other than Othello?
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Post by hi224 on Sept 29, 2020 23:36:06 GMT
Jeez, is this entire Shakespeare thread going to be about one character? Folks, there are 37 plays to discuss; 154 sonnets; 2 narrative poems; and there are a boatload of films, operas, ballets based on his works. But all anybody here wants to talk about is this guy Iago. Two pages of it already. Anybody here read anything other than Othello? you are sure pleasant nice......
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marco266
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Post by marco266 on Sept 29, 2020 23:42:16 GMT
Jeez, is this entire Shakespeare thread going to be about one character? Folks, there are 37 plays to discuss; 154 sonnets; 2 narrative poems; and there are a boatload of films, operas, ballets based on his works. But all anybody here wants to talk about is this guy Iago. Two pages of it already. Anybody here read anything other than Othello? you are sure pleasant nice...... I am pleasant. I am nice. I also see that this Shakespeare thread is all about one character from one play. I tried steering the conversation to Macbeth or to Richard III....but, nope, all anybody wants to talk about is Iago. I suggest you change the title of this thread from 'Anyone Wanna Discuss Shakespeare' to 'Anyone Wanna Discuss Iago.'
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Post by hi224 on Sept 29, 2020 23:56:28 GMT
you are sure pleasant nice...... I am pleasant. I am nice. I also see that this Shakespeare thread is all about one character from one play. I tried steering the conversation to Macbeth or to Richard III....but, nope, all anybody wants to talk about is Iago. I suggest you change the title of this thread from 'Anyone Wanna Discuss Shakespeare' to 'Anyone Wanna Discuss Iago.' Well I guess you better mention another character.....
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Sept 30, 2020 7:38:10 GMT
you are sure pleasant nice...... I am pleasant. I am nice. Mabey you are that in real life, but on this forum you are mostly rude, arrogant and opinionated.
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