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Post by onethreetwo on Sept 2, 2020 18:49:46 GMT
I did mean to insult anybody. That’s just how I see it. Like Shakespeare with the Prince of Denmark tale being well known then. Shakespeare even named his son after the character long before he wrote the play. Nolan is working the tropes well known to anyone who has read science-fiction in its original form. The theme of time dilation has been written about a lot. Nolan uses this to illustrate how love transcends this physical boundary. And love transcending boundaries is probably one of the most popular themes in literature.
Wait a minute here. That is the big secret? Even I know that. I assumed that it was also meant to make scientific sense. People think it is suppose to make sense literally. You are making it sound like the entire last act is metaphor. 🤔 Interesting. |
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 2, 2020 18:55:18 GMT
Wait a minute here. That is the big secret? Even I know that. I assumed that it was also meant to make scientific sense. People think it is suppose to make sense literally. You are making it sound like the entire last act is metaphor. In themes about love, metaphor is usually how it’s handled. So obviously you got it. But why would you think I’m insulting you if you did or didn’t. Not every sci-if movie has to have a simple plot, a clearcut hero, or slam-blam special effects. Not every movie must please the “common man.”
I do like to insult folks who think every movie has to please them and if it doesn’t, they take as a personal insult and trash the work of people who are not putting out standard schlock. God, knows that’s usually what anyone talks about in film discussions forums. First of all, you are correct. I am one of the people who likes movies that don't have a simple plot. In the case of Interstellar however I assumed based on the rest of the movie that the ending was meant to make literal sense, because the rest of the movie does. That is why this movie jumps the shark imo. The funny thing is I watch it as metaphor because that is the only way it works. According to you that was the pupose the whole time, so I understood it without actually understanding it. That is a strange spot to be in. Forget about the isult thing. I now think I took it the wrong way based on your respectful replies following what I felt was a condescending remark about some filmmakers making movie for grownups with more than a High School education.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 2, 2020 19:07:12 GMT
Maybe I took it the wrong way. You should be careful when saying something like, "Some filmmakers make movies for grownups with more than a High School education." That sounds very condescending to me. If you didn't mean it that way than I apologize. I stand by that line as I’m not apologizing for spending most of life educating myself. Because it’s popular today to trash education and critical thinking. I know some ‘thangs and wear it on my sleeve. And I’m sick of populism. I’m not directing this at anyone in particular. Hey, I agree 100%. The thing is you were responding to me and it sure seemed like you assumed I don't have interest in furthering my knowledge, such as the stuff you mention above. I just don't read much fiction. I don't even know how to respond to "I'm not apologizing for educating myself." What does that have to do with the condescending remark? It was a completely unnecessary remark that had no business being written and added nothing to the discussion.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 2, 2020 19:17:53 GMT
Hey, I agree 100%. The thing is you were responding to me and it sure seemed like you assumed I don't have interest in furthering my knowledge, such as the stuff you mention above. I just don't read much fiction. Just a suggestion to further your horizon and read more. I’ve read a lot of Southern Gothic fiction such O’Connor, Walker Percy, etc, and this helps me deal with living within my Southern heritage as a real and often positive thing rather than the stereotype. I am not interested in reading fiction. I tend to spend time reading about psychology, religion, history, critical thinking, science and philosophy. I try to know a little bit about as many things as I can, but movies are my main interest. Btw, the theme of the 20th century seems to be "being very arrogant about being ignorant." I am just going to pull stuff out of my ass and then rub it all over everyone's faces. Or to quote George Carlin "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 2, 2020 19:28:47 GMT
I am not interested in reading fiction. I tend to spend time reading about psychology, religion, history, critical thinking, science and philosophy. I try to know a little bit about as many things as I can, but movies are my main interest. Btw, the theme of the 20th century seems to be "being very arrogant about being ignorant." I am just going to pull stuff out of my ass and then rub it all over everyone's faces. People have gotten stupid nowadays. Even my high school drop out Daddy was well read. Anyway, you should try some fiction just for your own expansion of knowledge about the world. It will enhance your other readings and as a moviegoer. You can start here: My mistake. I actually meant the 21st century. The issue is that some people no longer care about being smart. You can't force someone to care about something they genuinely don't care about. Like try making a sociopath care about other people. It isn't going to happen.
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Post by onethreetwo on Sept 2, 2020 19:31:02 GMT
I'm fascinated with the idea that Interstellar is just a metaphore and the scifi mumbo-jumbo is just incoherent details, but I'm not necessarily convinced that was Nolan's intent. Maybe it was, but I can think of other, better ways of getting that message accross than through confusing scifi details. Details that would then be meaningless.
And then do we apply this to other movies that make little sense? Are those movies metaphores, too? What movies get this pass and what movies don't? Good discussion though.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 2, 2020 19:37:05 GMT
I'm fascinated with the idea that Interstellar is just a metaphore and the scifi mumbo-jumbo is just incoherent details, but I'm not necessarily convinced that was Nolan's intent. Maybe it was, but I can think of other, better ways of getting that message accross than through confusing scifi details. Details that would then be meaningless. And then do we apply this to other movies that make little sense? Are those movies metaphores, too? What movies get this pass and what movies don't? Good discussion though. You have to understand the metaphor and then you will know it was done on purpose. My issue with the ending of Interstellar is that the rest of the movie does make literal sense. Inception on the other hand is another beast entirely. The entire movie is about dreams and subconscious, with characters literally named for Greek mythology.
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Jason143
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Post by Jason143 on Sept 2, 2020 19:38:13 GMT
I've made the point that it's not a well-reviewed movie, and people often "correct" me that it's got a good RT score. My response to that is that the "good" reviews often sound a lot like bad reviews, except they end with, "but I liked it anyway".This is exactly what Im talking about. Its like fans already accepted before they even saw the movie that it was going to be great and have now forced themselves to like it. I dont know if this could be because fans were just desperate to get back into the cinema and Tenet happens to be the first big release, but something is up because I've never seen reviews like this before. |
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Post by Jason143 on Sept 2, 2020 19:41:49 GMT
This is a valid statement to make depending on the movie. For instance I didn't "understand" Eraserhead (it's more of a visual experience that doesn't have a real coherent plot structure). However with mainstream blockbusters that typically are supposed to have straight forward plots, that leads me to believe Tenet is an inchorent mess. That being the key. Nolan doesn't like straight-forward plots. He couldn't even tell Dunkirk in a straight-forward way. The movie makes sense obviously, but the typical blockbuster it is not. I liked Dunkirk but again, why does it need a spin on time? And this overthinking and over complicating plots has manifested into one of the most incoherent big budget stories ever displayed in Tenet. I pray Nolan just goes back to a simple linear story in his next project. |
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Jason143
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Post by Jason143 on Sept 2, 2020 19:55:19 GMT
This is a precious post I made here: "Explain to me how we're supposed to believe this: I'll give brief answers to this, mainly because I enjoyed Interstellar for its science as I work in science education He needed observational data from the singularity in the black hole. This is a real life problem too. To fully understand gravity you need to unite general relativity (physics of large, heavy objects) with quantum mechanics (physics of small, atomic scale objects). The singularity in the black hole is both. Its very small yet very heavy (dense). Similar answer. They need to observe the singularity and "read" its physical properties. Its mentioned earlier by Romily that a probe moving fast enough across the black holes horizon can survive to relay data after glimsping the singularity. This is mathematically possible. Yea this is where it gets a bit messy and becomes more taxing to believe. But again it is theoretically possible, hed just be translating into morse for a lot longer. This is a genuine plot hole. She has no way of knowing her father was the ghost all along. |
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 2, 2020 19:56:36 GMT
I'm fascinated with the idea that Interstellar is just a metaphore and the scifi mumbo-jumbo is just incoherent details, but I'm not necessarily convinced that was Nolan's intent. Maybe it was, but I can think of other, better ways of getting that message accross than through confusing scifi details. Details that would then be meaningless. And then do we apply this to other movies that make little sense? Are those movies metaphores, too? What movies get this pass and what movies don't? Good discussion though. I’m glad there are many levels of complexity in some movies, some straight forward, others more nuanced. I’m sure you agree. If they were all the same, how boring would that be? As I’ve said, I’ve not seen Tenet. It might suck. Except 123 LIKES Interstellar. For someone who congratulates himself for being so intelligent, you certainly missed the boat on this one.
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Post by Prime etc. on Sept 2, 2020 20:14:25 GMT
Populism is sorely lacking in today's film world.
Nolan is an idiosyncratic director being given populist-level film money and advertising.
Like Rian Johnson being given a Star Wars movie when his idol is Woody Allen.
Or Ang Lee doing a Hulk movie.
It sounds cool to link a director with material that is totally alien to them, but this produces alienating works for the intended audience.
The last Nolan movie I watched was Inception and it was terrible.
Michael Caine is reduced to dialogue like "you are here to ask for one of my students."
Why not have the characters interact more normally to get to the intent?
It worked for John Huston and other intelligent directors.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Sept 2, 2020 20:24:51 GMT
Populism is sorely lacking in today's film world. Nolan is an idiosyncratic director being given populist-level film money and advertising. Like Rian Johnson being given a Star Wars movie when his idol is Woody Allen. Or Ang Lee doing a Hulk movie. It sounds cool to link a director with material that is totally alien to them, but this produces alienating works for the intended audience. The last Nolan movie I watched was Inception and it was terrible. Michael Caine is reduced to dialogue like "you are here to ask for one of my students." Why not have the characters interact more normally to get to the intent? It worked for John Huston and other intelligent directors. Or David Lynch doing a Dune movie
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Post by thisguy4000 on Sept 2, 2020 20:54:53 GMT
I haven’t seen Tenet, but Christopher Nolan’s movies aren’t that difficult to understand. He’s not David Lynch.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Sept 2, 2020 21:03:40 GMT
I'm not gonna say Nolan doesn't have his cultists - TDKR is IMDb's 71st greatest movie of all time and Rotten Tomatoes shut down user comments when critics that dared give it negative reviews were met with death threats - but...
My girlfriend said the same thing and she doesn't know dick about Nolan. "I didn't understand it, but I liked it and I want to see it again to figure it out".
It's not every movie that you see a fight scene where one player is going backwards and the other forwards. The film is certainly unique, and it challenges you and gets you talking about it. That's gotta count for something in today's climate when the majority of film discourse seems to be franchise properties and how too diverse or not diverse enough the casts are. People do like solving puzzles, after all. And maybe it's a nice change of pace to have a blockbuster that's too complicated as opposed to too simple.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 2, 2020 21:12:07 GMT
I'm not gonna say Nolan doesn't have his cultists - TDKR is IMDb's 71st greatest movie of all time and Rotten Tomatoes shut down user comments when critics that dared give it negative reviews were met with death threats - but... My girlfriend said the same thing and she doesn't know dick about Nolan. "I didn't understand it, but I liked it and I want to see it again to figure it out". It's not every movie that you see a fight scene where one player is going backwards and the other forwards. The film is certainly unique, and it challenges you and gets you talking about it. That's gotta count for something in today's climate when the majority of film discourse seems to be franchise properties and how too diverse or not diverse enough the casts are. People do like solving puzzles, after all. And maybe it's a nice change of pace to have a blockbuster that's too complicated as opposed to too simple. I am in 100% agreement. I am a fan of TDKR but don't get me started on it being the 71st greatest movie of all time. Don't even get me started on TDK being the 4th best movie of all time on IMDB. I'd say that TDKR should be out of the Top 250 completely and movie TDK to #71.
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Jason143
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Post by Jason143 on Sept 2, 2020 21:30:52 GMT
I'm not gonna say Nolan doesn't have his cultists - TDKR is IMDb's 71st greatest movie of all time and Rotten Tomatoes shut down user comments when critics that dared give it negative reviews were met with death threats - but... My girlfriend said the same thing and she doesn't know dick about Nolan. "I didn't understand it, but I liked it and I want to see it again to figure it out". It's not every movie that you see a fight scene where one player is going backwards and the other forwards. The film is certainly unique, and it challenges you and gets you talking about it. That's gotta count for something in today's climate when the majority of film discourse seems to be franchise properties and how too diverse or not diverse enough the casts are. People do like solving puzzles, after all. And maybe it's a nice change of pace to have a blockbuster that's too complicated as opposed to too simple. I do give it credit in being daring and challenging to the mainstream. But are we at the point where we are so deeply drowned in cliched, simplistic franchise movies/remakes/sequels that any sort of divergence is automatically hailed as cinemas saviour, as Nolan has implied this movie could be, despite it being as you say too complicated (which to me translates to bad storytelling)? Im sure if this movie came out 20-30 years ago it would have the opposite reaction. People wouldnt say "I didnt understand it but I really enjoyed it". Theyd just forget about it and go to the theatres the following week to watch the latest great movie of that time which was a regular occurrence. |
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Jason143
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Post by Jason143 on Sept 2, 2020 21:32:38 GMT
I haven’t seen Tenet, but Christopher Nolan’s movies aren’t that difficult to understand. He’s not David Lynch. It is difficult to understand because the way the story is presented is not user friendly. Its a mixture of Primer and Cloud Atlas. Comment back in here after youve seen it, I would be interested in you're take. |
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Sept 2, 2020 22:47:11 GMT
I'm not gonna say Nolan doesn't have his cultists - TDKR is IMDb's 71st greatest movie of all time and Rotten Tomatoes shut down user comments when critics that dared give it negative reviews were met with death threats - but... My girlfriend said the same thing and she doesn't know dick about Nolan. "I didn't understand it, but I liked it and I want to see it again to figure it out". It's not every movie that you see a fight scene where one player is going backwards and the other forwards. The film is certainly unique, and it challenges you and gets you talking about it. That's gotta count for something in today's climate when the majority of film discourse seems to be franchise properties and how too diverse or not diverse enough the casts are. People do like solving puzzles, after all. And maybe it's a nice change of pace to have a blockbuster that's too complicated as opposed to too simple. I do give it credit in being daring and challenging to the mainstream. But are we at the point where we are so deeply drowned in cliched, simplistic franchise movies/remakes/sequels that any sort of divergence is automatically hailed as cinemas saviour, as Nolan has implied this movie could be, despite it being as you say too complicated (which to me translates to bad storytelling)? Im sure if this movie came out 20-30 years ago it would have the opposite reaction. People wouldnt say "I didnt understand it but I really enjoyed it". Theyd just forget about it and go to the theatres the following week to watch the latest great movie of that time which was a regular occurrence. Isn't the saving cinema rhetoric in relation to the pandemic and lack of big movies coming out in general? From the user reviews you quoted, there's a lot of the word "enjoyed", which isn't exactly the biggest word in movie appraisal. People "enjoy" a lot of things. And even on Nolanhub (re: imdb), it failed to crack the top 250. |
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Post by janntosh on Sept 3, 2020 2:00:46 GMT
Don’t see what’s wrong with this. It’s possible for a movie to make much sense but still be an entertaining watch
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