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Post by Skaathar on Sept 7, 2020 16:51:05 GMT
Was reading reviews of the new Mulan movie and apparently they made Mulan into a Mary Sue similar to Rey from Star Wars.
That got me worried about Black Widow. What do you think are the chances of Disney turning her into a Mary Sue?
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Post by thisguy4000 on Sept 7, 2020 17:20:58 GMT
Black Widow has already been in more than half a dozen movies. People should be familiar enough with her character at this point to have an idea of what she’s about.
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Post by politicidal on Sept 7, 2020 18:01:55 GMT
She's already an accomplished spy and superhero by this point in the timeline.
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Post by hobowar on Sept 7, 2020 18:44:59 GMT
Mary Sue is a garbage term so I don't really care. Tony Stark can create impossible flying suits out of scraps in caves and somehow gets a pass. No female character will ever reach his level of Mary Sueness.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 8, 2020 2:55:07 GMT
Your question insinuates that Natasha has to earn something. She doesn’t. She’s the Black Widow.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 8, 2020 3:04:16 GMT
Mary Sue is a garbage term so I don't really care. Tony Stark can create impossible flying suits out of scraps in caves and somehow gets a pass. No female character will ever reach his level of Mary Sueness. That's not what a Mary Sue is. Just because you're ridiculously good at something doesn't make one a Mary Sue.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 8, 2020 3:04:56 GMT
Your question insinuates that Natasha has to earn something. She doesn’t. She’s the Black Widow. No insinuations meant. The question is as straight-forward as it is.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Sept 8, 2020 3:18:51 GMT
Your question insinuates that Natasha has to earn something. She doesn’t. She’s the Black Widow. My question insinuates nothing. It's just a straight forward question. I mean, we already know that she’s an extremely skilled combatant, due to being a trained assassin, and as I mentioned, she’s already been in multiple movies before this. There’s not really any criteria by which to judge her as a supposed Mary Sue in her own movie, when she’s been an established hero in this setting for 10 years.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 8, 2020 3:29:19 GMT
My question insinuates nothing. It's just a straight forward question. I mean, we already know that she’s an extremely skilled combatant, due to being a trained assassin, and as I mentioned, she’s already been in multiple movies before this. There’s not really any criteria by which to judge her as a supposed Mary Sue in her own movie, when she’s been an established hero in this setting for 10 years. Ok, then your answer is no. I can respect that. However, I could think of a dozen ways to make even established characters become Mary Sues (or Gary Stus for that matter).
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 8, 2020 14:40:58 GMT
We're complaining about Mulan now? A live action remake of a cartoon adapted from a folk tale? Why do animals like Snow White so much? Is it ever explained?
Regarding Black Widow, I agree with the sentiments already expressed in this thread. She's an established badass, I don't know how she could be a 'Mary Sue' at this point.
On a related note, I don't think Captain Marvel was anymore of a Mary Sue than Thor or Iron Man. It's a weird double standard for female characters. She doesn't even start kicking ass until the end of the film.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 8, 2020 16:01:18 GMT
We're complaining about Mulan now? A live action remake of a cartoon adapted from a folk tale? Why do animals like Snow White so much? Is it ever explained? Regarding Black Widow, I agree with the sentiments already expressed in this thread. She's an established badass, I don't know how she could be a 'Mary Sue' at this point. On a related note, I don't think Captain Marvel was anymore of a Mary Sue than Thor or Iron Man. It's a weird double standard for female characters. She doesn't even start kicking ass until the end of the film. I don't consider Captain Marvel a Mary Sue, at least not yet. She ticks off some of the boxes but not enough to make her one - though she does come close. To make a character become a Mary Sue, all you really need to do is have a film bend over backwards and break its own rules to service them. You can do that even with established characters. Thor and Ironman don't do that but the MCU did come close to doing that with Captain America in Civil War. If he didn't struggle so much in that movie he could have been labelled a Gary Stu. On a related note, it's not a double standard for female characters, it's simply that the viewing public stopped being tolerant with Gary Stus earlier. Majority of action heroes in the 80's and 90's were all Gary Stu's, and the public has grown more mature and stopped liking the near perfect action fighter who never runs out of bullets and never struggles with obstacles. That's why you keep getting the "grittier and more vulnerable" version of male heroes nowadays. Dwayne Johnson's characters are probably the last remaining offshoots of the 80's perfect hero. To be fair, the general movie-public does tend to misuse the term Mary Sue. That doesn't mean it's not a legitimate writing issue.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 8, 2020 16:47:09 GMT
Your question insinuates that Natasha has to earn something. She doesn’t. She’s the Black Widow. No insinuations meant. The question is as straight-forward as it is. Then my "straight-forward" answer is no. There isn't a precedent I am aware of for concern over her being portrayed as a Mary Sue, (i.e., there is no Avengers film where Black Widow, after a minimal training montage, saved all of the Avengers from the main villain). And a Mary Sues isn't a bad thing on the face of it. You can have a skilled female character in a story while simultaneously avoiding undercutting the drama. Ripley in Aliens is considered a Mary Sue to some. Still, the fact that she is a quick-study who is hyper-competent never takes away from the story's overall tension because the obstacles she faces are calibrated correctly to her innate skills.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 8, 2020 16:59:41 GMT
No insinuations meant. The question is as straight-forward as it is. Then my "straight-forward" answer is no. There isn't a precedent I am aware of for concern over her being portrayed as a Mary Sue, (i.e., there is no Avengers film where Black Widow, after a minimal training montage, saved all of the Avengers from the main villain). And a Mary Sues isn't a bad thing on the face of it. You can have a skilled female character in a story while simultaneously avoiding undercutting the drama. Ripley in Aliens is considered a Mary Sue to some. Still, the fact that she is a quick-study who is hyper-competent never takes away from the story's overall tension because the obstacles she faces are calibrated correctly to her innate skills. I think the problem here is that a number of people don't understand what a Mary Sue is. Being hyper-competent doesn't make someone a Mary Sue, not on its own anyway. Anyone who thinks Ripley is a Mary Sue doesn't know what the term means. But if you don't think that Black Widow is in any risk to this then that's fine, I respect that answer.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 8, 2020 17:12:25 GMT
Then my "straight-forward" answer is no. There isn't a precedent I am aware of for concern over her being portrayed as a Mary Sue, (i.e., there is no Avengers film where Black Widow, after a minimal training montage, saved all of the Avengers from the main villain). And a Mary Sues isn't a bad thing on the face of it. You can have a skilled female character in a story while simultaneously avoiding undercutting the drama. Ripley in Aliens is considered a Mary Sue to some. Still, the fact that she is a quick-study who is hyper-competent never takes away from the story's overall tension because the obstacles she faces are calibrated correctly to her innate skills. I think the problem here is that a number of people don't understand what a Mary Sue is. Being hyper-competent doesn't make someone a Mary Sue, not on its own anyway. Anyone who thinks Ripley is a Mary Sue doesn't know what the term means. Agreed, several factors contribute to a Mary Sue categorization. The reason people don't understand the term is that a precise definition is often in dispute. Even the person who coined the phrase can't seem to clearly and consistently state a definition. None of that stops us from understanding the negative impact on a story of a so-called Mary Sue. The undisputed consequence is drama that is flat, absurd, and implausible storytelling. Other than the screenwriter's stated attitude about comic book movies, I see no evidence to suggest that Black Widow will be rendered as a Mary Sue.
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Post by Skaathar on Sept 8, 2020 17:22:02 GMT
I think the problem here is that a number of people don't understand what a Mary Sue is. Being hyper-competent doesn't make someone a Mary Sue, not on its own anyway. Anyone who thinks Ripley is a Mary Sue doesn't know what the term means. Agreed, several factors contribute to a Mary Sue categorization. The reason people don't understand the term is that a precise definition is often in dispute. Even the person who coined the phrase can't seem to clearly and consistently state a definition. None of that stops us from understanding the negative impact on a story of a so-called Mary Sue. The undisputed consequence is drama that is flat, absurd, and implausible storytelling. Other than the screenwriter's stated attitude about comic book movies, I see no evidence to suggest that Black Widow will be rendered as a Mary Sue. Full disclosure: Over a decade ago I used to write fanfiction. I had this dream of becoming a writer.... didn't go so well. Anyway, that's how I got to learn about the term (Mary Sue) and had to learn specifically not to fall into the easy trap of writing mary sue characters. The book community (especially the writing community) was intimately familiar with this trope way before the movie community ever used the term. Nowadays the movie community started co-opting the term and they don't always understand what it actually means.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 8, 2020 17:45:54 GMT
Agreed, several factors contribute to a Mary Sue categorization. The reason people don't understand the term is that a precise definition is often in dispute. Even the person who coined the phrase can't seem to clearly and consistently state a definition. None of that stops us from understanding the negative impact on a story of a so-called Mary Sue. The undisputed consequence is drama that is flat, absurd, and implausible storytelling. Other than the screenwriter's stated attitude about comic book movies, I see no evidence to suggest that Black Widow will be rendered as a Mary Sue. Full disclosure: Over a decade ago I used to write fanfiction. I had this dream of becoming a writer.... didn't go so well. Anyway, that's how I got to learn about the term (Mary Sue) and had to learn specifically not to fall into the easy trap of writing mary sue characters. The book community (especially the writing community) was intimately familiar with this trope way before the movie community ever used the term. Nowadays the movie community started co-opting the term and they don't always understand what it actually means. I am a published writer (although I haven't published anything in about a decade). I encountered the term in the early 2000s. I was never overly concerned about it impacting my work because I thought of it as a wish-fulfillment trap that only self-serving amateurs would fall into. Come to find that circa now, it's very prevalent in a lot of so-called professional writing.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 8, 2020 18:35:28 GMT
Agreed, several factors contribute to a Mary Sue categorization. The reason people don't understand the term is that a precise definition is often in dispute. Even the person who coined the phrase can't seem to clearly and consistently state a definition. None of that stops us from understanding the negative impact on a story of a so-called Mary Sue. The undisputed consequence is drama that is flat, absurd, and implausible storytelling. Other than the screenwriter's stated attitude about comic book movies, I see no evidence to suggest that Black Widow will be rendered as a Mary Sue. Full disclosure: Over a decade ago I used to write fanfiction. I had this dream of becoming a writer.... didn't go so well. Anyway, that's how I got to learn about the term (Mary Sue) and had to learn specifically not to fall into the easy trap of writing mary sue characters. The book community (especially the writing community) was intimately familiar with this trope way before the movie community ever used the term. Nowadays the movie community started co-opting the term and they don't always understand what it actually means. Also, sorry to hear your writing aspirations never quite took shape. To borrow a cliché, it's never too late...
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Sept 8, 2020 18:36:26 GMT
So what is the right definition of a Mary Sue?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Sept 8, 2020 19:33:57 GMT
Mary Sue is a garbage term so I don't really care. Tony Stark can create impossible flying suits out of scraps in caves and somehow gets a pass. No female character will ever reach his level of Mary Sueness. You don't know what "Mary Sue" really means, "Mary Sue" is used to describe a female character who is successful in everything they face without any explanation as to how and why they could ever achieve such efficiency and have little to no real character growth in a story. And Tony Stark isn't a Mary Sue type, really a Gary Sue if you want the gender alternative term, as they are established in the first movie, before the Mark-1 is invented in the cave, as a technical genius who was impressing educators in their youth with their work in robotics - He attended MIT and was their wonder boy of sorts. So we as the audience know before his capture that he can create something impressive with a box of scraps, its not like he knew nothing of robotics before his abduction.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Sept 8, 2020 20:12:54 GMT
Mary Sue is a garbage term so I don't really care. Tony Stark can create impossible flying suits out of scraps in caves and somehow gets a pass. No female character will ever reach his level of Mary Sueness. You don't know what "Mary Sue" really means, "Mary Sue" is used to describe a female character who is successful in everything they face without any explanation as to how and why they could ever achieve such efficiency and have little to no real character growth in a story. And Tony Stark isn't a Mary Sue type, really a Gary Sue if you want the gender alternative term, as they are established in the first movie, before the Mark-1 is invented in the cave, as a technical genius who was impressing educators in their youth with their work in robotics - He attended MIT and was their wonder boy of sorts. So we as the audience know before his capture that he can create something impressive with a box of scraps, its not like he knew nothing of robotics before his abduction. Issues of feminism, identity politics, representation, and political correctness have all clouded the core definition of a Mary Sue. Her ability to be successful at anything she tries is a crucial trait of the stereotype. However, the most significant aspect of a Mary Sue is that she is an idealized being. The character is designed to be a proxy for a special interest (for lack of a better term). This is done intentionally to portray such a group as unimpeachable and worthy of our attention and praise. That's fine if you're campaigning; however, if you're trying to tell a story, it means that someone like Rei may not actually be a person in the truest sense that we understand it. She is closer to an aspirational standard and farther away from an imperfect human being. It's this underlying aspect of the archetype that I believe causes a near-total revolution in some audience members.
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