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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 13, 2020 21:54:37 GMT
Well if I'm not deciding for myself who is? You're making it sound like you aren't deciding for yourself unless you like what you decide. Is that it? Hey now, you're the one who said you didn't want to believe what you do, as if you have no choice. Of course, I have a choice. All of us do. George Orwell once said of himself that he had an ability to deal with unpleasant facts. I have the same ability.
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Post by Admin on Sept 13, 2020 21:58:50 GMT
Hey now, you're the one who said you didn't want to believe what you do, as if you have no choice. Of course, I have a choice. All of us do. George Orwell once said of himself that he had an ability to deal with unpleasant facts. I have the same ability. So you choose what you don't want? Well, alrighty then.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 13, 2020 22:03:09 GMT
Of course, I have a choice. All of us do. George Orwell once said of himself that he had an ability to deal with unpleasant facts. I have the same ability. So you choose what you don't want? Well, alrighty then. I can choose what I want to be true, but I can't make it true by wanting it.
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Post by Admin on Sept 13, 2020 22:56:30 GMT
So you choose what you don't want? Well, alrighty then. I can choose what I want to be true, but I can't make it true by wanting it. I agree; if something is true (or not), it's going to remain true (or not) regardless of whether or not anyone believes it. However, you said you don't want it to be true, but that you believe it anyway because that's where the evidence led you. It's either a choice or it isn't. If the evidence is what's making you believe something despite your desire not to believe it, it isn't a choice. But here you are, saying you decide for yourself what to believe. Are you going to eat that cake or what?
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 13, 2020 23:09:35 GMT
My ex-girlfriend is as straight as they come.
That makes her more straight than me.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 13, 2020 23:13:07 GMT
I can choose what I want to be true, but I can't make it true by wanting it. I agree; if something is true (or not), it's going to remain true (or not) regardless of whether or not anyone believes it. However, you said you don't want it to be true, but that you believe it anyway because that's where the evidence led you. It's either a choice or it isn't. If the evidence is what's making you believe something despite your desire not to believe it, it isn't a choice. But here you are, saying you decide for yourself what to believe. Are you going to eat that cake or what? It is very possible to block out information that you realized was true at one point and go back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe. The choice to block it out fully is a choice, but once you are past the point where you don't even remember the truth anymore, but only what you want to believe that is no longer a choice. It is self-deception of the highest order. I realize looking back at your reply that we might be talking about something slightly different.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 13, 2020 23:21:28 GMT
I can choose what I want to be true, but I can't make it true by wanting it. I agree; if something is true (or not), it's going to remain true (or not) regardless of whether or not anyone believes it. However, you said you don't want it to be true, but that you believe it anyway because that's where the evidence led you. It's either a choice or it isn't. If the evidence is what's making you believe something despite your desire not to believe it, it isn't a choice. But here you are, saying you decide for yourself what to believe. Are you going to eat that cake or what? Oh, sure it is. If I wanted to tell myself that the pictures of the ISS aren't faked I certainly have the power to do so.
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Post by Admin on Sept 13, 2020 23:30:15 GMT
I agree; if something is true (or not), it's going to remain true (or not) regardless of whether or not anyone believes it. However, you said you don't want it to be true, but that you believe it anyway because that's where the evidence led you. It's either a choice or it isn't. If the evidence is what's making you believe something despite your desire not to believe it, it isn't a choice. But here you are, saying you decide for yourself what to believe. Are you going to eat that cake or what? Oh, sure it is. If I wanted to tell myself that the pictures of the ISS aren't faked I certainly have the power to do so. You can tell yourself whatever you want to, but this is about whether or not you're choosing to believe it. No matter how much I want to believe that I'm not sitting at a desk right now composing a response to you, I just can't...at least not rationally. And I can tell myself that two plus two equals negative seven thousand, but I couldn't believe it. It is impossible to lie to oneself.
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Post by Admin on Sept 13, 2020 23:30:40 GMT
I agree; if something is true (or not), it's going to remain true (or not) regardless of whether or not anyone believes it. However, you said you don't want it to be true, but that you believe it anyway because that's where the evidence led you. It's either a choice or it isn't. If the evidence is what's making you believe something despite your desire not to believe it, it isn't a choice. But here you are, saying you decide for yourself what to believe. Are you going to eat that cake or what? It is very possible to block out information that you realized was true at one point and go back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe. The choice to block it out fully is a choice, but once you are past the point where you don't even remember the truth anymore, but only what you want to believe that is no longer a choice. It is self-deception of the highest order. I realize looking back at your reply that we might be talking about something slightly different. Confirmation bias can be a vicious beast, and it's extremely prevalent.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 13, 2020 23:36:51 GMT
It is very possible to block out information that you realized was true at one point and go back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe. The choice to block it out fully is a choice, but once you are past the point where you don't even remember the truth anymore, but only what you want to believe that is no longer a choice. It is self-deception of the highest order. I realize looking back at your reply that we might be talking about something slightly different. Confirmation bias can be a vicious beast, and it's extremely prevalent. I don't even think I am talking about confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is when you look for the stuff you want to be true and ignore the stuff that goes against that. That isn't exactly what I am talking about.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 13, 2020 23:39:03 GMT
Oh, sure it is. If I wanted to tell myself that the pictures of the ISS aren't faked I certainly have the power to do so. You can tell yourself whatever you want to, but this is about whether or not you're choosing to believe it. No matter how much I want to believe that I'm not sitting at a desk right now composing a response to you, I just can't...at least not rationally. And I can tell myself that two plus two equals negative seven thousand, but I couldn't believe it. It is impossible to lie to oneself. Baloney. People lie to themselves every day. They can even look at the botched ISS videos and still manage to convince themselves that the videos have been altered by conspiracy theorists.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 13, 2020 23:47:43 GMT
You can tell yourself whatever you want to, but this is about whether or not you're choosing to believe it. No matter how much I want to believe that I'm not sitting at a desk right now composing a response to you, I just can't...at least not rationally. And I can tell myself that two plus two equals negative seven thousand, but I couldn't believe it. It is impossible to lie to oneself. Baloney. People lie to themselves every day. They can even look at the botched ISS videos and still manage to convince themselves that the videos have been altered by conspiracy theorists. You still reach a point where you either fully believe something or you don't. If someone is aware they are lying to their self then they don't actually believe it they just try really hard to believe it. Conspiracy theorists actually beleive the stuff they say in many cases. These people are irrational imo, but they do seem to actually believe what they claim to believe.
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Post by Admin on Sept 13, 2020 23:53:52 GMT
Confirmation bias can be a vicious beast, and it's extremely prevalent. I don't even think I am talking about confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is when you look for the stuff you want to be true and ignore the stuff that goes against that. That isn't exactly what I am talking about. Blocking out information that you realized was true at one point and going back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe sounds a lot like confirmation bias to me.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 13, 2020 23:57:13 GMT
I don't even think I am talking about confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is when you look for the stuff you want to be true and ignore the stuff that goes against that. That isn't exactly what I am talking about. Blocking out information that you realized was true at one point and going back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe sounds a lot like confirmation bias to me. I'll accept that. I just didn't realize that still fell under the confirmation bias umbrella. Is suppressed memory (if it does in fact exist in the way we commonly think about it) confirmation bias?
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Post by Admin on Sept 13, 2020 23:58:19 GMT
You can tell yourself whatever you want to, but this is about whether or not you're choosing to believe it. No matter how much I want to believe that I'm not sitting at a desk right now composing a response to you, I just can't...at least not rationally. And I can tell myself that two plus two equals negative seven thousand, but I couldn't believe it. It is impossible to lie to oneself. Baloney. People lie to themselves every day. They can even look at the botched ISS videos and still manage to convince themselves that the videos have been altered by conspiracy theorists. If you really believe the lies you tell yourself, you need help. After all, don't you know when you're telling a lie?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 14, 2020 0:00:00 GMT
Baloney. People lie to themselves every day. They can even look at the botched ISS videos and still manage to convince themselves that the videos have been altered by conspiracy theorists. You still reach a point where you either fully believe something or you don't. If someone is aware they are lying to their self then they don't actually believe it they just try really hard to believe it. Conspiracy theorists actually beleive the stuff they say in many cases. These people are irrational imo, but they do seem to actually believe what they claim to believe. Irrational = people who don't lie to themselves just because they don't like what they're seeing? If you have a flat tire, you have a flat tire, no matter how much you would prefer not to see it.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 14, 2020 0:01:18 GMT
Baloney. People lie to themselves every day. They can even look at the botched ISS videos and still manage to convince themselves that the videos have been altered by conspiracy theorists. If you really believe the lies you tell yourself, you need help. After all, don't you know when you're telling a lie? 
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 0:05:41 GMT
Blocking out information that you realized was true at one point and going back to legitimately believing what you prefer to believe sounds a lot like confirmation bias to me. I'll accept that. I just didn't realize that still fell under the confirmation bias umbrella. It's not that wide. Blocking out only what you don't want to believe in order to confirm what you do want to believe is another way of saying confirmation bias.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 0:11:26 GMT
You still reach a point where you either fully believe something or you don't. If someone is aware they are lying to their self then they don't actually believe it they just try really hard to believe it. Conspiracy theorists actually beleive the stuff they say in many cases. These people are irrational imo, but they do seem to actually believe what they claim to believe. Irrational = people who don't lie to themselves just because they don't like what they're seeing?
If you have a flat tire, you have a flat tire, no matter how much you would prefer not to see it. No, that is rational. You either misunderstood what I was saying or I misunderstood what you were saying.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 14, 2020 0:11:38 GMT
I'll accept that. I just didn't realize that still fell under the confirmation bias umbrella. It's not that wide. Blocking out only what you don't want to believe in order to confirm what you do want to believe is another way of saying confirmation bias. Exactly! About six times I've put up the link about babies born with both male and female genitalia, and the hospitals arbitrarily decide which gender the child is to be, and in most cases the parents are never informed. And it gets ignored......because people don't want to believe it.
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