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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Sept 9, 2020 17:08:14 GMT
Got touched on in the Seaver RIP threads. Who was the best pitcher of all time. Cy Young, poppycock. To my mind, there are four candidates
1. Walter Perry Johnson. 417 wins for a team that sucked ass for 75% of his career. The Big Train would have had 900 wins if he had pitched for the A's, Giants, Cubs or any team the could hit the ball. He won 33 games for the 1912 Nationals no one can name another player on that team. I got two names that stick out to me, Clyde Milan and the crook Chick Gandil. the 1912 Nationals won 91 games, probably don't win 65 w/o Johnson (he closed 13 games!). One of the cases where win totals for pitchers does count
2. Robert Moses Grove. Lefty. 300 wins on the button 2266 K's. But was "robbed" of probably 80-100 wins and 900 K's. If you don't know the story, Grove was kept in the minors for four years when he could have easily been on a major league roster. The owner of the minor league Baltimore Orioles, Jack Dunn, got burned once when he sold a pitcher named George Ruth to the Red Sox in 1914. he vowed never to do it again and kept Lefty for years until pressure from Kennesaw Landis and a $100,600 check from Connie Mack changed his mind. Mack used him in relief a lot and he pitched in a more hitting dominant era than Johnson.
3. Sanford Koufax. The Left Arm of God. 165 wins, are you shitting me? Koufax had not one but two albatrosses tied to his neck. First, the "Bonus Baby Rule". When he signed, the rules stated that any player signed for a huge bonus had to stay on the major league roster for two years. Killed many prospects, totally unready to play, their skills atrophied on the bench. Certainly hurt Koufax. Then the Dodgers kept bouncing him from the bullpen to the rotation. But, from 1962-1966, he was the best of all time. Look at the batters he had to face on a daily basis. Mays, Aaron, McCovey, Mathews, Banks, Stargell, Clemente, Robinson. Rose, Allen, et al. The Dodgers then ran him into the ground. He threw 154 pitches in an exhibition in 1966 when the Dodgers knew his arm was falling off.
4. Gregory Alan Maddox. In the era he pitched in, astonishing. Unbelievable. But he made it look so easy. Look at Johnson, Grove and Koufax (not to mention Seaver, Carlton, Gibson, Marichal) and how violently they threw. Maddux looked like he was tossing BP. Yet he got chemically enhanced freaks out every damned day. In context, Maddux from 1992-1995 might rival Koufax from 1962-1966.
I've thought forever that Koufax was the man, then Johnson and Grove. But, the more I think, the more I'm convinced that Greg Maddux was the best ever.
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marco266
Junior Member
 
@marco266
Posts: 535
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Post by marco266 on Sept 9, 2020 17:16:53 GMT
Forget stats and history books. Let's use our own eyes to determine the greatest pitcher.
My eyes tell me these guys:
Mariano Rivera Dwight Gooden Fernando Valenzuela Ron Guidry Tom Seaver Jim Palmer
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Post by twothousandonemark on Sept 9, 2020 17:27:25 GMT
Walter Johnson
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Sept 9, 2020 17:43:33 GMT
Sidd Finch
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Sept 9, 2020 18:06:09 GMT
For the most part it’s hard to compare modern pitchers to old timey ones. Walter Johnson would probably have had success today, but would Pete Alexander or Christy Mathewson? Conversely, Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez would have racked up 500 wins back then.
In my lifetime (70s onward) I’d go with Maddux, Carlton, Pedro, Randy Johnson, and Seaver in some order. Halladay was utterly dominant at his peak as well but might be a hair below those guys.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Sept 9, 2020 18:08:20 GMT
Forget stats and history books. Let's use our own eyes to determine the greatest pitcher. My eyes tell me these guys: Mariano Rivera Dwight Gooden Fernando Valenzuela Ron Guidry Tom Seaver Jim Palmer Mo - best closer ever. No question.
Gooden - For his first few years, yeah he might have been the best. Not only did he have great stuff but he KNEW how to throw. He knew when to throw that fastball and when to throw that evil 12-6 "Lord Charles" curve. If only he kept his nose clean (Literally). Pity, Dioc and Strawberry would have been first ballot if they stayed away from the coke. Straw has the sweetest swing ever.
Valenzuela - Smoke and mirrors (kooky delivery) in the greatest pitchers ballpark Guidry - poor luck to pitch for the lousy Yankees of that era. See Mel Stottlemyre for another example Tom Seaver - Top 10 Palmer - Never knew what to make of Palmer. Great pitcher or very good pitcher in great teams.
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Post by movielover on Sept 9, 2020 18:08:34 GMT
Greg Maddux
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Sept 9, 2020 18:14:41 GMT
For the most part it’s hard to compare modern pitchers to old timey ones. Walter Johnson would probably have had success today, but would Pete Alexander or Christy Mathewson? Conversely, Randy Johnson or Pedro Martinez would have racked up 500 wins back then. From what I've read, pitchers, even Johnson, didn't throw fastball 90% of the time like modern day pitchers. The gas was an out pitch, set up a batter with the junk and use the gas as needed. Most pitchers at that time were what we would call today, junkballers. You either fooled a batter or got hit to hit weakly. Few speed merchants before Bob Feller and Lefty Grove changed things. Johnson and Rube Waddell were the two notables
I think a pitcher like Randy Johnson would have dominated like no player ever. No one could have dealt with 95+ mph fastballs, over and over and over. Hitters would have adjusted eventually
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Post by nutsberryfarm 🏜 on Sept 9, 2020 18:23:27 GMT
warren spahn
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Post by DrKrippen on Sept 9, 2020 19:04:51 GMT
Sandy
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Post by wonderburstanger on Sept 9, 2020 19:51:13 GMT
Anyone that can do this is the GOAT.
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Post by Carl LaFong on Sept 9, 2020 20:10:22 GMT
I remember the Big Unit. He was impressive.
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Post by millar70 on Sept 9, 2020 20:32:04 GMT
I think one person here so far has been smart enough to mention Pedro Martinez.
I'll be quite happy to second that notion.
I'll take Pedro over one-year wonder overhyped guys like Gooden, Fernando, and Guidry any day of the week. Shit, if one incredible season is enough to be called the "greatest pitcher ever", then I'll take 1988 Orel Hershiser over any of those other guys.
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Post by masterofallgoons on Sept 9, 2020 20:34:23 GMT
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Sept 9, 2020 20:46:36 GMT
I think one person here so far has been smart enough to mention Pedro Martinez. I'll be quite happy to second that notion. I'll take Pedro over one-year wonder overhyped guys like Gooden, Fernando, and Guidry any day of the week. Shit, if one incredible season is enough to be called the "greatest pitcher ever", then I'll take 1988 Orel Hershiser over any of those other guys. What eventually makes me take Maddux over Koufax is longevity. Longevity shouldn't be a huge factor or you might make a case for Don Sutton. But Maddux did it longer than Koufax. Or Pedro. Pedro had six great seasons, his last in Montreal and five of the first six in Boston (he was hurt in '01). He was okay before 1998 and took a downturn during the 2004 season. Maddux had 11 great seasons. Martinez would be top 10 probably. He thrived for one reason. He wasn't scared to pitch inside.
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marco266
Junior Member
 
@marco266
Posts: 535
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Post by marco266 on Sept 9, 2020 21:10:51 GMT
Mariano Rivera Dwight Gooden Fernando Valenzuela Ron Guidry Tom Seaver Jim Palmer Mo - best closer ever. No question.
Gooden - For his first few years, yeah he might have been the best. Not only did he have great stuff but he KNEW how to throw. He knew when to throw that fastball and when to throw that evil 12-6 "Lord Charles" curve. If only he kept his nose clean (Literally). Pity, Dioc and Strawberry would have been first ballot if they stayed away from the coke. Straw has the sweetest swing ever.
Valenzuela - Smoke and mirrors (kooky delivery) in the greatest pitchers ballpark Guidry - poor luck to pitch for the lousy Yankees of that era. See Mel Stottlemyre for another example Tom Seaver - Top 10 Palmer - Never knew what to make of Palmer. Great pitcher or very good pitcher in great teams.
Palmer was the real deal. He just had the bad luck to be playing at the time of Carlton and Seaver and Ryan. Those guys were always perceived as the best in the game, but Jim Palmer was truly one of the best ever. Yes, that Orioles team was strong. But, uhh, I do believe the pitching staff, not the lineup, made that team strong. Palmer, McNally, Dobson, Doyle Alexander, Cuellar. Those silly Glavine Atlanta Braves always get the nod for best pitching staff. Hogwash. It was those Orioles. Wrong about Valenzuela. I don't care if his greatness didn't last long at all, but when he was great HE WAS GREAT!
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Sept 9, 2020 21:54:14 GMT
Mo - best closer ever. No question.
Gooden - For his first few years, yeah he might have been the best. Not only did he have great stuff but he KNEW how to throw. He knew when to throw that fastball and when to throw that evil 12-6 "Lord Charles" curve. If only he kept his nose clean (Literally). Pity, Dioc and Strawberry would have been first ballot if they stayed away from the coke. Straw has the sweetest swing ever.
Valenzuela - Smoke and mirrors (kooky delivery) in the greatest pitchers ballpark Guidry - poor luck to pitch for the lousy Yankees of that era. See Mel Stottlemyre for another example Tom Seaver - Top 10 Palmer - Never knew what to make of Palmer. Great pitcher or very good pitcher in great teams.
Palmer was the real deal. He just had the bad luck to be playing at the time of Carlton and Seaver and Ryan. Those guys were always perceived as the best in the game, but Jim Palmer was truly one of the best ever. Yes, that Orioles team was strong. But, uhh, I do believe the pitching staff, not the lineup, made that team strong. Palmer, McNally, Dobson, Doyle Alexander, Cuellar. Those silly Glavine Atlanta Braves always get the nod for best pitching staff. Hogwash. It was those Orioles. Wrong about Valenzuela. I don't care if his greatness didn't last long at all, but when he was great HE WAS GREAT! When Fernando was good, he was very good. When he wasn't he was a bum.
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Post by northern on Sept 9, 2020 21:59:49 GMT
To me it's Roger Clemens.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Sept 9, 2020 22:06:32 GMT
To me it's Roger Clemens. Better living though Chemistry
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Sept 9, 2020 22:06:33 GMT
To me it's Roger Clemens. Clemens isn’t in the best pitcher ever conversation for the same reason ARod isn’t on the shortstop thread.
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