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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 0:58:14 GMT
So "gender" is now a "social construct", (its a term that has been around for yonks and the construct of it was to determine if one had a huhu or a ding dong), then you say it is linked to biological sex. Biological sex is either male or female and for many is also represented by gender.
If one is born into the biological sex of a male, but then claim they feel like a female, how would they know what it really feels like to have female biological reproductive organs, when they will NEVER have them, even if the external is altered to resemble that of a female image. It is all a caricature of image.
Ask a professional. I am just relaying what I have heard. I have my own feelings on the matter that will just frustrate me to discuss with you. I also don't want to offend anybody. Your opinion does count and what you perceive also. With this touchy subject, it also needs to be seen with a reasonable take of sensibility and rationale. One needs to pick and choose their battles, but since its a constructed discussion about TG, I hardly think those are participating are going to feel offended, and if it is "truth" that they get offended by, then they need to own that for themselves. You may have something worth saying that they, "the offended", or others may need to hear.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 1:00:54 GMT
Ask a professional. I am just relaying what I have heard. I have my own feelings on the matter that will just frustrate me to discuss with you. I also don't want to offend anybody. Your opinion does count and what you perceive also. With this touchy subject, it also needs to be seen with a reasonable take of sensibility and rationale. One needs to pick and choose their battles, but since its a constructed discussion about TG, I hardly think those are participating are going to feel offended, and if it is "truth" that they get offended by, then they need to own that for themselves. You may have something worth saying that they, "the offended", or others may need to hear. I actually edited my previous reply to include my understanding of what it means to be transgender. I don't mind discussing this stuff because I have no stake in it, meaning that I am not going to shy away from truth if you can provide it in a way that I can both understand and agree with.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 1:01:13 GMT
Ask a professional. I am just relaying what I have heard. I have my own feelings on the matter that will just frustrate me to discuss with you. I also don't want to offend anybody. Your opinion does count and what you perceive also. With this touchy subject, it also needs to be seen with a reasonable take of sensibility and rationale. One needs to pick and choose their battles, but since its a constructed discussion about TG, I hardly think those are participating are going to feel offended, and if it is "truth" that they get offended by, then they need to own that for themselves. You may have something worth saying that they, "the offended", or others may need to hear. I'm just happy to see a thread reach 5 pages with no childish incivility. Ok, almost none, but I'll take it anyway. 
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 1:15:41 GMT
I'll also add that transgender is a description of a person and how they see themselves compared to other people. If this was just a handful of people then it wouldn't have a label and would likely be brushed off, but this is something that effects millions of people across the world in every culture.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 1:17:27 GMT
I'll also add that transgender is a description of a person and how they see themselves compared to other people. If this was just a handful of people then it wouldn't have a label and would likely be brushed off, but this is something that effects millions of people across the world in every culture. I remember saying something similar when all those kids were eating Tide pods.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 1:19:50 GMT
I'll also add that transgender is a description of a person and how they see themselves compared to other people. If this was just a handful of people then it wouldn't have a label and would likely be brushed off, but this is something that effects millions of people across the world in every culture. I remember saying something similar when all those kids were eating Tide pods. I have not heard of that. Can you explain the story.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 1:21:12 GMT
I remember saying something similar when all those kids were eating Tide pods.I have not heard of that. Can you explain the story. Sure. A bunch of kids were eating Tide pods.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 1:22:45 GMT
I have not heard of that. Can you explain the story. Sure. A bunch of kids were eating Tide pods. Cool. Sounds like a bunch of kids being idiots.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 1:27:26 GMT
Sure. A bunch of kids were eating Tide pods. Cool. Sounds like a bunch of kids being idiots. Bandwagons can be very enticing.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 1:43:11 GMT
So "gender" is now a "social construct", (its a term that has been around for yonks and the construct of it was to determine if one had a huhu or a ding dong), then you say it is linked to biological sex. Biological sex is either male or female and for many is also represented by gender.
If one is born into the biological sex of a male, but then claim they feel like a female, how would they know what it really feels like to have female biological reproductive organs, when they will NEVER have them, even if the external is altered to resemble that of a female image. It is all a caricature of image.
Ask a professional. I am just relaying what I have heard. I have my own feelings on the matter that will just frustrate me to discuss with you. I also don't want to offend anybody. EDIT - I will respond with caution. From what I gather, a transgender female comes to the conclusion that they have a female mind based on their thoughts and feelings when compared to males and females. It is correct imo that men and women have traits throughout history and a transgender person relates entirely to what they perceive as the female mind. This then causes them to want to be a female in every way because they feel like their mind is in the wrong body. You have to actually discuss this with a transgender person to understand in more detail. I responded after I read your edit and have read your other response movie.
Mind is the main issue to me, yet mind is also abstract, so what is it really? It is only the ego mind that is identifying as gender and the social construct of placing attributes to what male/female represents. For a TG, gender does appear to be the key issue and where the focus lies. This is identification of "self" and edges into narcissism.
I don't believe enough acceptance goes into what their biological body represents and wanting to tear away from that, means for what ultimate purpose? The body internally is still the same and the brain that comes with that biological gender package would only work in sync with that body.
Does a TG female have more fabulous genes than most other males that is more in touch with feminine traits? If so, I see no issue in wanting to be drawn to something that attracts them and dress and present themselves as they choose, yet the "extremity" of physical change that can only fundamentally go skin deep, cannot possibly determine what it "genuinely" feels like to be the opposite gender. It's superficial! If it was possible to transfer a TG brain into a real female body, they may not like it. Same goes for TG males.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 1:50:01 GMT
Ask a professional. I am just relaying what I have heard. I have my own feelings on the matter that will just frustrate me to discuss with you. I also don't want to offend anybody. EDIT - I will respond with caution. From what I gather, a transgender female comes to the conclusion that they have a female mind based on their thoughts and feelings when compared to males and females. It is correct imo that men and women have traits throughout history and a transgender person relates entirely to what they perceive as the female mind. This then causes them to want to be a female in every way because they feel like their mind is in the wrong body. You have to actually discuss this with a transgender person to understand in more detail. I responded after I read your edit and have read your other response movie. Mind is the main issue to me, yet mind is also abstract, so what is it really? It is only the ego mind that is identifying as gender and the social construct of placing attributes to what male/female represents. For a TG, gender does appear to be the key issue and where the focus lies. This is identification of "self" and edges into narcissism.
I don't believe enough acceptance goes into what their biological body represents and wanting to tear away from that, means for what ultimate purpose? The body internally is still the same and the brain that comes with that biological gender package would only work in sync with that body.
Does a TG female have more fabulous genes than most other males that is more in touch with feminine traits? If so, I see no issue in wanting to be drawn to something that attracts them and dress and present themselves as they choose, yet the "extremity" of physical change that can only fundamentally go skin deep, cannot possibly determine what it "genuinely" feels like to be the opposite gender. It's superficial! If it was possible to transfer a TG brain into a real female body, they may not like it. Same goes for TG males.
Perhaps it's much simpler. Let's put this on the table: Transgenderism is extreme homophobia.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 1:56:16 GMT
Ask a professional. I am just relaying what I have heard. I have my own feelings on the matter that will just frustrate me to discuss with you. I also don't want to offend anybody. EDIT - I will respond with caution. From what I gather, a transgender female comes to the conclusion that they have a female mind based on their thoughts and feelings when compared to males and females. It is correct imo that men and women have traits throughout history and a transgender person relates entirely to what they perceive as the female mind. This then causes them to want to be a female in every way because they feel like their mind is in the wrong body. You have to actually discuss this with a transgender person to understand in more detail. I responded after I read your edit and have read your other response movie.
Mind is the main issue to me, yet mind is also abstract, so what is it really? It is only the ego mind that is identifying as gender and the social construct of placing attributes to what male/female represents. For a TG, gender does appear to be the key issue and where the focus lies. This is identification of "self" and edges into narcissism.
I don't believe enough acceptance goes into what their biological body represents and wanting to tear away from that, means for what ultimate purpose? The body internally is still the same and the brain that comes with that biological gender package would only work in sync with that body.
Does a TG female have more fabulous genes than most other males that is more in touch with feminine traits? If so, I see no issue in wanting to be drawn to something that attracts them and dress and present themselves as they choose, yet the "extremity" of physical change that can only fundamentally go skin deep, cannot possibly determine what it "genuinely" feels like to be the opposite gender. It's superficial! If it was possible to transfer a TG brain into a real female body, they may not like it. Same goes for TG males. I am not willing to jump to any conclusion besides that they feel a certain way and wish they were born as biological women or men depending on the person transitioning. I find it relatively useless talking in the abstract that way you want to hear. It is all just speculation at that point. This is for the transgender community, social sciences and psychology to figure out. As I said, I am just explaining what I have been told by transgender people and read in studies. For anything else you need to figure out for yourself and come to your own conclusion. Makes no difference to me. Some people seem to really be bothered by the transgender mindset and this because they are incapable of understanding it. That is ego all the way. It is their decision to do whatever they want with their own body, just like it is my decision to do what I want with my own body. My only issue comes in when teenagers under 17 are allowed to be put on hormones and stuff like that. I am not an expert though, maybe the the people who study this know something I don't.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 2:01:20 GMT
I responded after I read your edit and have read your other response movie. Mind is the main issue to me, yet mind is also abstract, so what is it really? It is only the ego mind that is identifying as gender and the social construct of placing attributes to what male/female represents. For a TG, gender does appear to be the key issue and where the focus lies. This is identification of "self" and edges into narcissism.
I don't believe enough acceptance goes into what their biological body represents and wanting to tear away from that, means for what ultimate purpose? The body internally is still the same and the brain that comes with that biological gender package would only work in sync with that body.
Does a TG female have more fabulous genes than most other males that is more in touch with feminine traits? If so, I see no issue in wanting to be drawn to something that attracts them and dress and present themselves as they choose, yet the "extremity" of physical change that can only fundamentally go skin deep, cannot possibly determine what it "genuinely" feels like to be the opposite gender. It's superficial! If it was possible to transfer a TG brain into a real female body, they may not like it. Same goes for TG males.
Perhaps it's much simpler. Let's put this on the table: Transgenderism is extreme homophobia. I don't see TG as a sexuality, it goes far beyond the simpler mechanism of homosexuality. They are not embracing and endorsing their gender, where a homo does, so perhaps in that respect, it could be.
I have read of TG that have transitioned male to female and then become a lesbian. That is confusing, when they were likely straight to begin with. Perhaps the desire for the female is so strong, that the need to feel as much like a woman physically was a sexual catalyst.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2020 2:08:05 GMT
Perhaps it's much simpler. Let's put this on the table: Transgenderism is extreme homophobia. I don't see TG as a sexuality, it goes far beyond the simpler mechanism of homosexuality. They are not embracing and endorsing their gender, where a homo does, so perhaps in that respect, it could be.
I have read of TG that have transitioned male to female and then become a lesbian. That is confusing, when they were likely straight to begin with. Perhaps the desire for the female is so strong, that the need to feel as much like a woman physically was a sexual catalyst.
Meh. I'm just spitballing here... "I'm attracted to men, but I'm not gay, so I must be a woman trapped in a man's body." If it has nothing to do with sexuality, then surely the TG community has plenty of impotent men, frigid women, and asexual people of all persuasions.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 2:21:13 GMT
I responded after I read your edit and have read your other response movie.
Mind is the main issue to me, yet mind is also abstract, so what is it really? It is only the ego mind that is identifying as gender and the social construct of placing attributes to what male/female represents. For a TG, gender does appear to be the key issue and where the focus lies. This is identification of "self" and edges into narcissism.
I don't believe enough acceptance goes into what their biological body represents and wanting to tear away from that, means for what ultimate purpose? The body internally is still the same and the brain that comes with that biological gender package would only work in sync with that body.
Does a TG female have more fabulous genes than most other males that is more in touch with feminine traits? If so, I see no issue in wanting to be drawn to something that attracts them and dress and present themselves as they choose, yet the "extremity" of physical change that can only fundamentally go skin deep, cannot possibly determine what it "genuinely" feels like to be the opposite gender. It's superficial! If it was possible to transfer a TG brain into a real female body, they may not like it. Same goes for TG males. I am not willing to jump to any conclusion besides that they feel a certain way and wish they were born as biological women or men depending on the person transitioning. I find it relatively useless talking in the abstract that way you want to hear. It is all just speculation at that point. This is for the transgender community, social sciences and psychology to figure out. As I said, I am just explaining what I have been told by transgender people and read in studies. For anything else you need to figure out for yourself and come to your own conclusion. Makes no difference to me. Some people seem to really be bothered by the transgender mindset and this because they are incapable of understanding it. That is ego all the way.
It is their decision to do whatever they want with their own body, just like it is my decision to do what I want with my own body. My only issue comes in when teenagers under 17 are allowed to be put on hormones and stuff like that. I am not an expert though, maybe the the people who study this know something I don't. Those that do the scientific and/or psychological studies, may NEVER find an absolute answer or understanding and that is part of what I was expressing, it is ALL mind abstract. The objectivity comes in with the original biological package one is born with, not anything else attributed to it, other than boy body or girl body. The rest becomes about societal "norm" and expectations and is all subjective.
How can one possibly "ever" understand the TG mindset, when it is far removed from the acceptance of biological sex that the majority of humans accept and connect with? I see that as ego for others thinking they should understand.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 2:22:45 GMT
I am not willing to jump to any conclusion besides that they feel a certain way and wish they were born as biological women or men depending on the person transitioning. I find it relatively useless talking in the abstract that way you want to hear. It is all just speculation at that point. This is for the transgender community, social sciences and psychology to figure out. As I said, I am just explaining what I have been told by transgender people and read in studies. For anything else you need to figure out for yourself and come to your own conclusion. Makes no difference to me. Some people seem to really be bothered by the transgender mindset and this because they are incapable of understanding it. That is ego all the way.
It is their decision to do whatever they want with their own body, just like it is my decision to do what I want with my own body. My only issue comes in when teenagers under 17 are allowed to be put on hormones and stuff like that. I am not an expert though, maybe the the people who study this know something I don't. Those that do the scientific and/or psychological studies, may NEVER find an absolute answer or understanding and that is part of what I was expressing, it is ALL mind abstract. The objectivity comes in with the original biological package one is born with, not anything else attributed to it, other than boy body or girl body. The rest becomes about societal "norm" and expectations and is all subjective.
How can one possibly "ever" understand the TG mindset, when it is far removed from the acceptance of biological sex that the majority of humans accept and connect with? I see that as ego for others thinking they should understand.
Okay then. I agree that transgender people make the same mistake. Being offended that people can't wrap their mind around an idea that sounds irrational. I am not going to make some ignorant statement about something I don't understand, though I have my own thoughts about it that is nobody else's business. I have repeatedly stated that I am no expert and will only discuss my understanding of it from the perspective of TG people that I have talked to and read about.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 2:37:50 GMT
I don't see TG as a sexuality, it goes far beyond the simpler mechanism of homosexuality. They are not embracing and endorsing their gender, where a homo does, so perhaps in that respect, it could be.
I have read of TG that have transitioned male to female and then become a lesbian. That is confusing, when they were likely straight to begin with. Perhaps the desire for the female is so strong, that the need to feel as much like a woman physically was a sexual catalyst.
Meh. I'm just spitballing here... "I'm attracted to men, but I'm not gay, so I must be a woman trapped in a man's body." If it has nothing to do with sexuality, then surely the TG community has plenty of impotent men, frigid women, and asexual people of all persuasions. While there will be sexual drive, one born of male sex and is attracted to other males, will be classified homosexual. If this is the the case with a person who claims they are then TG and not really male but a female, does this not move it out of the sexuality sphere into something more complex than mere sexual attraction?
To my understanding, TG are originally gay males if the sexual attraction is for other other males, but the majority of gay dudes don't want to be born into a female body either. They are content with the gender package they came with. The ALL persuasions affects the entire human population as a complete whole, yet what are these persuasions? The labeling is what becomes the social problem to categorize what they like sexually and that can only be male or female or both. People are just sexual pronto.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 2:41:41 GMT
Those that do the scientific and/or psychological studies, may NEVER find an absolute answer or understanding and that is part of what I was expressing, it is ALL mind abstract. The objectivity comes in with the original biological package one is born with, not anything else attributed to it, other than boy body or girl body. The rest becomes about societal "norm" and expectations and is all subjective.
How can one possibly "ever" understand the TG mindset, when it is far removed from the acceptance of biological sex that the majority of humans accept and connect with? I see that as ego for others thinking they should understand.
Okay then. I agree that transgender people make the same mistake. Being offended that people can't wrap their mind around an idea that sounds irrational. I am not going to make some ignorant statement about something I don't understand, though I have my own thoughts about it that is nobody else's business. I have repeatedly stated that I am no expert and will only discuss my understanding of it from the perspective of TG people that I have talked to and read about. Like you mentioned, it is something only really to be understood from a TG perspective and even then, it doesn't mean that it is going to be, has to be, or should be understood by the many. It just possibly can't, unless one identifies as TG themselves.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 2:49:28 GMT
Okay then. I agree that transgender people make the same mistake. Being offended that people can't wrap their mind around an idea that sounds irrational. I am not going to make some ignorant statement about something I don't understand, though I have my own thoughts about it that is nobody else's business. I have repeatedly stated that I am no expert and will only discuss my understanding of it from the perspective of TG people that I have talked to and read about. Like you mentioned, it is something only really to be understood from a TG perspective and even then, it doesn't mean that it is going to be, has to be, or should be understood by the many. It just possibly can't, unless one identifies as TG themselves. It is important to be looked into more and attempted to be understood. The treatment of transgender people as human beings is the issue and to try to get them to find their happiness. Transgender people are prone to severe depression and other issues because they don't fit in comfortably to any category and have been treated as second class citizens for a very long time. This comes down to morals, personal freedom and finding the best way to be happy in their own skin. That is all I care about. Discomfort with stuff people don't understand is the cause of violence and hate.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 2:57:22 GMT
Like you mentioned, it is something only really to be understood from a TG perspective and even then, it doesn't mean that it is going to be, has to be, or should be understood by the many. It just possibly can't, unless one identifies as TG themselves. It is important to be looked into more and attempted to be understood. The treatment of transgender people as human beings is the issue and to try to get them to find their happiness. Transgender people are prone to severe depression and other issues because they don't fit in comfortably to any category and have been treated as second class citizens for a very long time. This comes down to morals, personal freedom and finding the best way to be happy in their own skin. That is all I care about.Discomfort with stuff people don't understand is the cause of violence and hate. People's ignorance regarding what they don't get or understand, is a large part of human nature in many issues. I know I will NEVER understand TG and I can't see how such "extreme" notions of body identity can ever lead to happiness, depending on what one's take of happiness is.
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