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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 3:18:25 GMT
It is important to be looked into more and attempted to be understood. The treatment of transgender people as human beings is the issue and to try to get them to find their happiness. Transgender people are prone to severe depression and other issues because they don't fit in comfortably to any category and have been treated as second class citizens for a very long time. This comes down to morals, personal freedom and finding the best way to be happy in their own skin. That is all I care about.Discomfort with stuff people don't understand is the cause of violence and hate. People's ignorance regarding what they don't get or understand, is a large part of human nature in many issues. I know I will NEVER understand TG and I can't see how such "extreme" notions of body identity can ever lead to happiness, depending on what one's take of happiness is. I am ignorant about a lot of people too, but that doesn't give me any right to treat those people like shit and take away their freedoms. Unless they are infringing on my freedoms or the freedoms of others. There are many people who still would like to see gay people have their rights taken away and this is because of ignorance. Ignorance needs to confronted head on. The extreme notions of body identity in these cases are innate within them and may never lead to happiness for many. There is evidence that many transgender people are happy once they become accepted and aren't treated like shit though.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 3:28:05 GMT
People's ignorance regarding what they don't get or understand, is a large part of human nature in many issues. I know I will NEVER understand TG and I can't see how such "extreme" notions of body identity can ever lead to happiness, depending on what one's take of happiness is. I am ignorant about a lot of people too, but that doesn't give me any right to treat those people like shit and take away their freedoms. Unless they are infringing on my freedoms or the freedoms of others. There are many people who still would like to see gay people have their rights taken away and this is because of ignorance. Ignorance needs to confronted head on. The extreme notions of body identity in these cases are innate within them and may never lead to happiness for many. There is evidence that many transgender people are happy once they become accepted and aren't treated like shit though. If others choose to treat others like crap, that is the space they are coming from. It can’t be changed by any other individual wanting to change them. There are many prejudices and bigotries people carry around and even getting frustrated at others who are behaving in a manner we may not approve of, could also be seen as a form of prejudice, because they aren’t doing what we want. A TG person will just have to navigate best they can around their living environment and be careful who they choose to associate with. Most people will treat others accordingly, the rest is just out of our control.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 3:39:43 GMT
I am ignorant about a lot of people too, but that doesn't give me any right to treat those people like shit and take away their freedoms. Unless they are infringing on my freedoms or the freedoms of others. There are many people who still would like to see gay people have their rights taken away and this is because of ignorance. Ignorance needs to confronted head on. The extreme notions of body identity in these cases are innate within them and may never lead to happiness for many. There is evidence that many transgender people are happy once they become accepted and aren't treated like shit though. A TG person will just have to navigate best they can around their living environment and be careful who they choose to associate with. Most people will treat others accordingly, the rest is just out of our control. Yes, I agree. These people are often objectively wrong though. People have gotten much more accepting once knowledge was gained. Of course there are people who are just assholes and hate simply because they don't like something and prefer staying ignorant because they need stuff to hate or because that hate is misplaced. Once those assholes infringe on other people's rights, society has the right to take action against them. There is no easy answer and this stuff is very complicated. If someone said they think certain people's rights should be taken away without good reason, I am just going to ignore their existence. Their opinion means nothing to me at that point.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 4:05:46 GMT
If others choose to treat others like crap, that is the space they are coming from. It can’t be changed by any other individual wanting to change them. There are many prejudices and bigotries people carry around and even getting frustrated at others who are behaving in a manner we may not approve of, could also be seen as a form of prejudice, because they aren’t doing what we want. A TG person will just have to navigate best they can around their living environment and be careful who they choose to associate with. Most people will treat others accordingly, the rest is just out of our control. Yes, I agree. These people are often objectively wrong though. People have gotten much more accepting once knowledge was gained. Of course there are people who are just assholes and hate simply because they don't like something and prefer staying ignorant because they need stuff to hate or because that hate is misplaced. Once those assholes infringe on other people's rights, society has the right to take action against them. There is no easy answer and this stuff is very complicated. If someone said they think certain people's rights should be taken away without good reason, I am just going to ignore their existence. Their opinion means nothing to me at that point. Freedoms and rights affect everybody and TG get the same rights as everyone else. Once a violation of say a physical violent or sexual abuse takes place, it may be dealt with accordingly by law. Some things however just won’t be changed or controlled, with or without law as a boundary to say what is right, wrong or acceptable. It is up to each individual. If someone is making and decision about themselves that is not harming anyone else, even if it may be harmful to them, I have no beef with that. I may question the decision and dynamic behind it though. And the paradox here, is that any cosmetic surgeon that does perform transition surgeries, could very well be contributing to further harm of the individual.
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Post by moonchild on Sept 14, 2020 4:18:05 GMT
moviemouth I agree. What they feel on the inside doesn't match with how they look on the outside. It would be like waking up with the body of the opposite sex. You know you're a man but you have a woman's body
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 4:22:58 GMT
Yes, I agree. These people are often objectively wrong though. People have gotten much more accepting once knowledge was gained. Of course there are people who are just assholes and hate simply because they don't like something and prefer staying ignorant because they need stuff to hate or because that hate is misplaced. Once those assholes infringe on other people's rights, society has the right to take action against them. There is no easy answer and this stuff is very complicated. If someone said they think certain people's rights should be taken away without good reason, I am just going to ignore their existence. Their opinion means nothing to me at that point. Freedoms and rights affect everybody and TG get the same rights as everyone else. Once a violation of say a physical violent or sexual abuse takes place, it may be dealt with accordingly by law. Some things however just won’t be changed or controlled, with or without law as a boundary to say what is right, wrong or acceptable. It is up to each individual. If someone is making and decision about themselves that is not harming anyone else, even if it may be harmful to them, I have no beef with that. I may question the decision and dynamic behind it though. And the paradox here, is that any cosmetic surgeon that does perform transition surgeries, could very well be contributing to further harm of the individual. Yes, that is a predicament. That is up to the doctor and the patient though. If the doctor is fine with it and the patient wants it then it isn't my business. There is nothing about this that is or should be illegal imo. I see nothing morally wrong here. I think the TG community would argue that they aren't getting equal rights. Gay people and trans people don't even have the right to get married in some states. That is inequality right there. We can teach people to think better and educate people better. We can strive for that and that is the point I am making. We have proof that this works. Every minority group in the U.S. has more freedom and are more accepted now than they ever have been in the history of this country. It is still far from perfect, but we have come a long way.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 4:28:30 GMT
moviemouth I agree. What they feel on the inside doesn't match with how they look on the outside. It would be like waking up with the body of the opposite sex. You know you're a man but you have a woman's body I think most people agree that that is how they feel, but to many people that sounds like a serious mental illness. I understand that position, but am not claiming that it is in fact a mental disorder. Experts seem to have varying opinions on this.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 4:55:55 GMT
Freedoms and rights affect everybody and TG get the same rights as everyone else. Once a violation of say a physical violent or sexual abuse takes place, it may be dealt with accordingly by law. Some things however just won’t be changed or controlled, with or without law as a boundary to say what is right, wrong or acceptable. It is up to each individual. If someone is making and decision about themselves that is not harming anyone else, even if it may be harmful to them, I have no beef with that. I may question the decision and dynamic behind it though. And the paradox here, is that any cosmetic surgeon that does perform transition surgeries, could very well be contributing to further harm of the individual. Yes, that is a predicament. That is up to the doctor and the patient though. If the doctor is fine with it and the patient wants it then it isn't my business. There is nothing about this that is or should be illegal imo. I see nothing morally wrong here. I think the TG community would argue that they aren't getting equal rights. Gay people and trans people don't even have the right to get married in some states. That is inequality right there. We can teach people to think better and educate people better. We can strive for that and that is the point I am making. We have proof that this works. Every minority group in the U.S. has more freedom and are more accepted now than they ever have been in the history of this country. It is still far from perfect, but we have come a long way. Gay people can GET married in case you haven’t heard. It is a federal ruling in the US as far as I know, unless something has changed. Any state that refuses a marriage license is breaking the law. Marriage is over-rated anyway and to my mind, not the best measure for what represents human rights in society.
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Post by gameboy on Sept 14, 2020 4:59:38 GMT
I responded after I read your edit and have read your other response movie. Mind is the main issue to me, yet mind is also abstract, so what is it really? It is only the ego mind that is identifying as gender and the social construct of placing attributes to what male/female represents. For a TG, gender does appear to be the key issue and where the focus lies. This is identification of "self" and edges into narcissism.
I don't believe enough acceptance goes into what their biological body represents and wanting to tear away from that, means for what ultimate purpose? The body internally is still the same and the brain that comes with that biological gender package would only work in sync with that body.
Does a TG female have more fabulous genes than most other males that is more in touch with feminine traits? If so, I see no issue in wanting to be drawn to something that attracts them and dress and present themselves as they choose, yet the "extremity" of physical change that can only fundamentally go skin deep, cannot possibly determine what it "genuinely" feels like to be the opposite gender. It's superficial! If it was possible to transfer a TG brain into a real female body, they may not like it. Same goes for TG males.
Perhaps it's much simpler. Let's put this on the table: Transgenderism is extreme homophobia. You actually hit the nail on the head for some transgender. Take a country like Iran where male homosexuality is punishable by death, but the Iranian government supports transgender surgery.
I do believe there are homosexuals boys who are browbeaten by society's homophobia and believe they must be trapped in the wrong body because they are attracted to other males.
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Post by moonchild on Sept 14, 2020 5:01:16 GMT
moviemouth I agree. What they feel on the inside doesn't match with how they look on the outside. It would be like waking up with the body of the opposite sex. You know you're a man but you have a woman's body I think most people agree that that is how they feel, but to many people that sounds like a serious mental illness. I understand that position, but am not claiming that it is in fact a mental disorder. Experts seem to have varying opinions on this. It could be, but in the cases I've seen like Chaz Bono or Caitlyn Jenner, they seem to be enjoying their lives after they transitioned
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 5:09:31 GMT
I think most people agree that that is how they feel, but to many people that sounds like a serious mental illness. I understand that position, but am not claiming that it is in fact a mental disorder. Experts seem to have varying opinions on this. It could be, but in the cases I've seen like Chaz Bono or Caitlyn Jenner, they seem to be enjoying their lives after they transitioned I’d say Ms. Moon, examples listed are very highly intelligent people and not to mention, with or without any transition surgery, being the prolific individuals they are, they have pretty much lived the good life due to privilege. I don’t feel TG is so much a mental illness, in the sense that it is a debilitating illness that prevents them from functioning ordinarily in mundane society, but I do feel there are some mind disorders existing on the spectrum somewhere, if one wants to go down the psychological route.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 5:10:27 GMT
I think most people agree that that is how they feel, but to many people that sounds like a serious mental illness. I understand that position, but am not claiming that it is in fact a mental disorder. Experts seem to have varying opinions on this. It could be, but in the cases I've seen like Chaz Bono or Caitlyn Jenner, they seem to be enjoying their lives after they transitioned I have other thoughts on the matter that are more controversial and possibly problematic that I will stay away from. My position on the matter is that it is their life. I actually do have a mental disorder and my disorder is none of anyone else's business unless I do something to harm other people. It makes no difference to me whether it is a disorder or not.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 5:13:08 GMT
Yes, that is a predicament. That is up to the doctor and the patient though. If the doctor is fine with it and the patient wants it then it isn't my business. There is nothing about this that is or should be illegal imo. I see nothing morally wrong here. I think the TG community would argue that they aren't getting equal rights. Gay people and trans people don't even have the right to get married in some states. That is inequality right there. We can teach people to think better and educate people better. We can strive for that and that is the point I am making. We have proof that this works. Every minority group in the U.S. has more freedom and are more accepted now than they ever have been in the history of this country. It is still far from perfect, but we have come a long way. Gay people can GET married in case you haven’t heard. It is a federal ruling in the US as far as I know, unless something has changed. Any state that refuses a marriage license is breaking the law. Marriage is over-rated anyway and to my mind, not the best measure for what represents human rights in society. Okay, you got me there. Now I am informed about something I was ignorant about. See, it isn't hard.
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Post by moonchild on Sept 14, 2020 5:13:18 GMT
It could be, but in the cases I've seen like Chaz Bono or Caitlyn Jenner, they seem to be enjoying their lives after they transitioned I’d say Ms. Moon, examples listed are very highly intelligent people and not to mention, with or without any transition surgery, being the prolific individuals they are, they have pretty much lived the good life due to privilege. I don’t feel TG is so much a mental illness, in the sense that it is a debilitating illness that prevents them from functioning ordinarily in mundane society, but I do feel there are some mind disorders existing on the spectrum somewhere, if one wants to go down the psychological route. That's true and I did become acquainted with a transgender person when I was working but didn't know her well enough to know how her life was. She seemed fine as far as I could tell and I liked her a lot
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 5:15:07 GMT
Gay people can GET married in case you haven’t heard. It is a federal ruling in the US as far as I know, unless something has changed. Any state that refuses a marriage license is breaking the law. Marriage is over-rated anyway and to my mind, not the best measure for what represents human rights in society. Okay, you got me there. Now I am informed about something I was ignorant about. See, it isn't hard. You are far from ignorant and have NEVER given me that impression. We can’t know or understand everything.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 5:23:34 GMT
Okay, you got me there. Now I am informed about something I was ignorant about. See, it isn't hard. You are far from ignorant and have NEVER given me that impression. We can’t know or understand everything. I was ignorant about that subject and you pointed it out. I admitted to it and now I am no longer ignorant on the issue. There is a huge difference between ignorance and stupidity.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 5:23:40 GMT
I’d say Ms. Moon, examples listed are very highly intelligent people and not to mention, with or without any transition surgery, being the prolific individuals they are, they have pretty much lived the good life due to privilege. I don’t feel TG is so much a mental illness, in the sense that it is a debilitating illness that prevents them from functioning ordinarily in mundane society, but I do feel there are some mind disorders existing on the spectrum somewhere, if one wants to go down the psychological route. That's true and I did become acquainted with a transgender person when I was working but didn't know her well enough to know how her life was. She seemed fine as far as I could tell and I liked her a lot She was being professional and by the sound of it, if she was comfortable with how she identified, it helped to create less friction with others by not making an issue of it. Although a TG will be respected by most and referred to as their preferred choice of gender pronoun, she will always be seen as TG and not authentic female. If she was seen as a real woman, then there would no need to even comment on her as being someone who transitioned. It just comes with the territory.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 14, 2020 5:27:40 GMT
It could be, but in the cases I've seen like Chaz Bono or Caitlyn Jenner, they seem to be enjoying their lives after they transitioned I’d say Ms. Moon, examples listed are very highly intelligent people and not to mention, with or without any transition surgery, being the prolific individuals they are, they have pretty much lived the good life due to privilege. I don’t feel TG is so much a mental illness, in the sense that it is a debilitating illness that prevents them from functioning ordinarily in mundane society, but I do feel there are some mind disorders existing on the spectrum somewhere, if one wants to go down the psychological route. That isn't how I meant it. Most people with Asperger's are able to function in mundane society, but Asperger's is classified as a psychological disorder.
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Post by moonchild on Sept 14, 2020 5:28:47 GMT
That's true and I did become acquainted with a transgender person when I was working but didn't know her well enough to know how her life was. She seemed fine as far as I could tell and I liked her a lot She was being professional and by the sound of it, if she was comfortable with how she identified, it helped to create less friction with others by not making an issue of it. Although a TG will be respected by most and referred to as their preferred choice of gender pronoun, she will always be seen as TG and not authentic female. If she was seen as a real woman, then there would no need to even comment on her as being someone who transitioned. It just comes with the territory. She was a customer and yes, she did seem comfortable
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Sept 14, 2020 5:32:59 GMT
You are far from ignorant and have NEVER given me that impression. We can’t know or understand everything. I was ignorant about that subject and you pointed it out. I admitted to it and now I am no longer ignorant on the issue. There is a huge difference between ignorance and stupidity. You just weren’t aware. Ignorance goes a lot deeper to my mind. Ignorance they say is bliss, but that can apply to people that don’t want to accept or budge out of a current mindset that may not be doing them any favours.
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