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Post by Power Ranger on Oct 4, 2020 18:43:32 GMT
A new direction doesn’t equal a good direction. It could be a terrible direction. Who determines that? When the new direction is poor characterisation and stupid dialogue (even worse than the low bar set by previous SW films) then it’s a bad direction.
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 5, 2020 22:58:17 GMT
When the new direction is poor characterisation and stupid dialogue (even worse than the low bar set by previous SW films) then it’s a bad direction. That didn't answer my question.
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Jason143
Junior Member
@glaceon
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Post by Jason143 on Oct 6, 2020 10:55:01 GMT
Yes it took it in the direction of nose diving downwards into the Himalayan mountains at supersonic speed.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Oct 8, 2020 13:31:33 GMT
That gives him too much credit. Star Wars fans understand the characters, mythos, canon, etc. They also want to honor all of it. Johnson admitted he didn't care about that. I really don't think fans truly understand the characters, mythos, canon or the lore. There's a lot of nostalgic hero worshiping when it comes to them. Especially with Luke. People wanted Luke to be treated like he was more than he was. It's funny how people cry about how Luke acted when Rey got there not thinking that that's exactly what he'd do. Remember he was trained by Yoda and he did that to Luke when he found him on Dagobah. I bet he even taught at the academy the same way Yoda trained him.
Also, like other fantasy stories and old serials, the mythos and canon is constantly changing. That's why we keep getting new Jedi abilities in each movie (even abilities in the prequels that's not in the OT). Hell, Force choking is a Sith thing, but we see Luke do it in RotJ. We don't see telekinesis until ESB.
[More about the entire ST than just TLJ] And honoring all of it. Not really a good thing. That goes back to the nostalgic worshiping. The Abrams movies is what you'd get from fans trying to honor the movies (even though they hate to admit it). The best thing they could have done would be to soft reboot it by doing a Knights of the New Republic. Go opposite of KOTOR and go hundreds of years into the future.
Because it isn’t what Luke would do. You’re drawing that conclusion from one detail you isolated between Yoda and Luke on Dagobah; incorrectly interpreting its meaning; and ignoring a multitude of other evidence about Luke’s character that argues he wouldn’t have acted like that when Rey arrived. When you do that, your “Luke hero worship” argument falls flat on its face. (I can outline that evidence if need be).
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 9, 2020 0:00:05 GMT
I really don't think fans truly understand the characters, mythos, canon or the lore. There's a lot of nostalgic hero worshiping when it comes to them. Especially with Luke. People wanted Luke to be treated like he was more than he was. It's funny how people cry about how Luke acted when Rey got there not thinking that that's exactly what he'd do. Remember he was trained by Yoda and he did that to Luke when he found him on Dagobah. I bet he even taught at the academy the same way Yoda trained him.
Also, like other fantasy stories and old serials, the mythos and canon is constantly changing. That's why we keep getting new Jedi abilities in each movie (even abilities in the prequels that's not in the OT). Hell, Force choking is a Sith thing, but we see Luke do it in RotJ. We don't see telekinesis until ESB.
[More about the entire ST than just TLJ] And honoring all of it. Not really a good thing. That goes back to the nostalgic worshiping. The Abrams movies is what you'd get from fans trying to honor the movies (even though they hate to admit it). The best thing they could have done would be to soft reboot it by doing a Knights of the New Republic. Go opposite of KOTOR and go hundreds of years into the future.
Because it isn’t what Luke would do. You’re drawing that conclusion from one detail you isolated between Yoda and Luke on Dagobah; incorrectly interpreting its meaning; and ignoring a multitude of other evidence about Luke’s character that argues he wouldn’t have acted like that when Rey arrived. When you do that, your “Luke hero worship” argument falls flat on its face. (I can outline that evidence if need be). The meaning was to test his patience. And I'm saying is that Luke would test someone like that. He doesn't know who Rey is. You can see the shift in how he acts when she first meets him to later on when he starts to train her (though still jaded). And, yes, it does go straight into nostalgic hero worshiping for Luke. People want Luke to be how he is in the EU. They can't see a place where Luke would fall on hard times. They want Luke to be the big hero he never was in the movies. His contribution was standing up to Vader and the Emperor. When he asks Rey if she wanted him to stand up to the First Order with a lazer sword and the fans say "yes" They don't know Luke. That's not him.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Oct 9, 2020 9:22:07 GMT
Because it isn’t what Luke would do. You’re drawing that conclusion from one detail you isolated between Yoda and Luke on Dagobah; incorrectly interpreting its meaning; and ignoring a multitude of other evidence about Luke’s character that argues he wouldn’t have acted like that when Rey arrived. When you do that, your “Luke hero worship” argument falls flat on its face. (I can outline that evidence if need be). The meaning was to test his patience. And I'm saying is that Luke would test someone like that. He doesn't know who Rey is. You can see the shift in how he acts when she first meets him to later on when he starts to train her (though still jaded). And, yes, it does go straight into nostalgic hero worshiping for Luke. People want Luke to be how he is in the EU. They can't see a place where Luke would fall on hard times. They want Luke to be the big hero he never was in the movies. His contribution was standing up to Vader and the Emperor. When he asks Rey if she wanted him to stand up to the First Order with a lazer sword and the fans say "yes" They don't know Luke. That's not him. I beg to differ. It’s not a question of seeing Luke fall on hard times. It’s a question of how Luke responds to hard times. As the actor who plays him himself said. He wouldn’t run away and hide for an eternity because of hard times. The same Luke Skywalker who ran to save his friends from hard times in TESB is supposed to do the complete opposite in TLJ. The same Luke who rendezvoused and strategized to support his friends in the final battle of ROTJ is supposed to refuse contact with the Resistance and hide from his own sister (in TLJ). The same Luke who of his own accord risked his life to try to turn his evil father - steeped in the Darkside for decades - back to the Light, is supposed to be this person who stood over his nephew with murderous intent because of a Dark vision/dream. A blood relative who hadn’t committed a single evil deed yet. The same Luke who learned from ObiWan and Yoda their reasons for hiding: to preserve the Jedi Order, watch over its last chance in secrecy and rebuild it; decides he is going to hide to end it! To the contrary, very little of any expectation of different behavior from Luke in TLJ has to do with hero worship. It has to do with the person Luke was at his core, who he had grown into (over the course of a trilogy), and who he CLEARLY demonstrated he was and how he handled “hard times” and adversity.I almost find it amusing that you suggest with such confidence that you have such insight into who Luke truly is in contrast to the (quote/unquote) “hero worshippers” of Luke. Especially based on such few snippets of Luke’s character. And I clearly outlined far more evidence that supports Luke is not the character of TLJ. Evidence not drawn from any EU novel or comic book, but evidence drawn right from the movies.
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Post by ThatGuy on Oct 9, 2020 16:28:05 GMT
The meaning was to test his patience. And I'm saying is that Luke would test someone like that. He doesn't know who Rey is. You can see the shift in how he acts when she first meets him to later on when he starts to train her (though still jaded). And, yes, it does go straight into nostalgic hero worshiping for Luke. People want Luke to be how he is in the EU. They can't see a place where Luke would fall on hard times. They want Luke to be the big hero he never was in the movies. His contribution was standing up to Vader and the Emperor. When he asks Rey if she wanted him to stand up to the First Order with a lazer sword and the fans say "yes" They don't know Luke. That's not him. I beg to differ. It’s not a question of seeing Luke fall on hard times. It’s a question of how Luke responds to hard times. As the actor who plays him himself said. He wouldn’t run away and hide for an eternity because of hard times. The same Luke Skywalker who ran to save his friends from hard times in TESB is supposed to do the complete opposite in TLJ. The same Luke who rendezvoused and strategized to support his friends in the final battle of ROTJ is supposed to refuse contact with the Resistance and hide from his own sister (in TLJ). The same Luke who of his own accord risked his life to try to turn his evil father - steeped in the Darkside for decades - back to the Light, is supposed to be this person who stood over his nephew with murderous intent because of a Dark vision/dream. A blood relative who hadn’t committed a single evil deed yet. The same Luke who learned from ObiWan and Yoda their reasons for hiding: to preserve the Jedi Order, watch over its last chance in secrecy and rebuild it; decides he is going to hide to end it! To the contrary, very little of any expectation of different behavior from Luke in TLJ has to do with hero worship. It has to do with the person Luke was at his core, who he had grown into (over the course of a trilogy), and who he CLEARLY demonstrated he was and how he handled “hard times” and adversity.I almost find it amusing that you suggest with such confidence that you have such insight into who Luke truly is in contrast to the (quote/unquote) “hero worshippers” of Luke. Especially based on such few snippets of Luke’s character. And I clearly outlined far more evidence that supports Luke is not the character of TLJ. Evidence not drawn from any EU novel or comic book, but evidence drawn right from the movies. Mark Hamill might think he won't, but the movies (OT) show a different take on that. He'd sit in a corner and cry until he got a pep talk. The big difference between the Luke in the OT and the Luke in the ST is that Yoda only trained Luke to survive as a Force user. He gave him the basics. Luke in the ST learned more about the Force through his self-imposed exile. Kylo was the reason he left (didn't learn from his failure). He stayed in exile because of what he learned about the Force. It's like reading a movie summery, then watching the movie and realizing you just watched Fant4stic.
What evidence from the movies? In both ANH and TESB, Luke moped in a corner when something happened. He only went with Obi Wan because he had nothing left. RoTJ he finally had an actual quest to go on to save his dad. That was the only time he took something head on that wasn't about survival. When it was personal to him. The Luke in TLJ didn't have people to give him a pep talk to get back in the fight because those were the people he felt shame for failing. This is different than the direction they took in the EU. He pretty much grew into being Superman. Everyone, except Jedi haters, loved him and saw him as that unstoppable hero. This is how people see Luke.
Just this gif looping over and over.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Oct 9, 2020 21:31:52 GMT
I beg to differ. It’s not a question of seeing Luke fall on hard times. It’s a question of how Luke responds to hard times. As the actor who plays him himself said. He wouldn’t run away and hide for an eternity because of hard times. The same Luke Skywalker who ran to save his friends from hard times in TESB is supposed to do the complete opposite in TLJ. The same Luke who rendezvoused and strategized to support his friends in the final battle of ROTJ is supposed to refuse contact with the Resistance and hide from his own sister (in TLJ). The same Luke who of his own accord risked his life to try to turn his evil father - steeped in the Darkside for decades - back to the Light, is supposed to be this person who stood over his nephew with murderous intent because of a Dark vision/dream. A blood relative who hadn’t committed a single evil deed yet. The same Luke who learned from ObiWan and Yoda their reasons for hiding: to preserve the Jedi Order, watch over its last chance in secrecy and rebuild it; decides he is going to hide to end it! To the contrary, very little of any expectation of different behavior from Luke in TLJ has to do with hero worship. It has to do with the person Luke was at his core, who he had grown into (over the course of a trilogy), and who he CLEARLY demonstrated he was and how he handled “hard times” and adversity.I almost find it amusing that you suggest with such confidence that you have such insight into who Luke truly is in contrast to the (quote/unquote) “hero worshippers” of Luke. Especially based on such few snippets of Luke’s character. And I clearly outlined far more evidence that supports Luke is not the character of TLJ. Evidence not drawn from any EU novel or comic book, but evidence drawn right from the movies. Mark Hamill might think he won't,
Do the OT movies show a different take? Only if you take certain scenes out of context and make them seem like the entire representation of the character. Luke would sit in a corner and cry until he got a pep talk? He only did that several times during his training with Yoda.
This is not onscreen. What did Luke ever do or say in TLJ that showed he learned more in exile? Nothing. Nothing in his dialogue indicates that. Nothing was said in anything he said about his meditation in solitude indicated he learned anything new. This is you (again) imagining narratives that fill in blanks. And filling them in simply to support your argument. But that’s not evidence.
Nothing in any Force power he used was new. The only thing you could argue might be new here is what he did on Krait. But we have no way of knowing whether he learned to do that when he was in exile or before he went in exile. That was not established onscreen.
At no time did Luke ever say he stayed in exile because of what he learned about the Force. There’s no dialogue in TLJ that supports this. The only motive he gives for his exile is his failure with Kylo and simply not wanting to be found or get involved. How are you coming up with this?
I guess you didn’t notice that Luke didn’t need a pep talk when it came to blowing up the Death Star. In fact he was the one handing out pep talks to the other pilots... constantly.
As far as him needing a pep talk to leave Tattooine, there were plenty of scenes that showed he was enthusiastic and eager to leave. The only thing stopping him was a guilt trip his uncle had been putting on him his entire life. That’s not the same as a defining personality trait to mope and cry in a corner at a moment’s whim.
I guess we can also forget that he didn’t need a pep talk to jump right into battle and excel after being attacked by the Wampa beast. He didn’t need a pep talk in TESB to fearlessly confront Vader.
In TROJ he didn’t need a pep talk to go into Jabba’s lair and singlehandedly rescue his friends. Defeating all of Jabba’s army. He didn’t mope or need a pep talk to completely devote himself to facing the Emperor or trying to turn his father back to the Light.
There were more times he didn’t need a pep talk than when he did. And over the course of the trilogy he grew out of that.
I don’t even need to bring the EU into this discussion to competently defend my point. There is plenty of onscreen evidence that supports it... as long as you don’t edit it out of your recollection or the narrative.
Just this gif looping over and over.
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Post by dazz on Oct 10, 2020 6:18:08 GMT
The thing with TLJ for me is as I have said many times before is not the direction it took but the details in which it took them, Luke being in isolation, cut off from the force, openly resisting the pleads to re-join the fight, and being down on himself COULD have worked but RJ just told the story so poorly imo.
For me Luke should have left to try and learn more about the Force, specifically a way to use the Force to purify ones soul or mind of the corruption of the Darkside, as we have seen Darkside users have used the force and other things to corrupt others under their control so Luke wanted to find a way to save his nephew, as well as get stronger to fight Snoke, so he is still connected to the Force he has felt the evil Kylo and Snoke have done, he felt the deaths of those worlds at their hands like Obi-Wan felt the destruction of Alderaan, but more specifically he felt Kylo kill Han and that is what has broken him, his actions pushed Ben over the edge and rather than stay to fight him he left for a "greater purpose" but in the end he just allowed billions or even trillions to die including one of his best friends.
This would be why Luke would stay out of the fighting in TLJ and be hesitant to train Rey, he has JUST been broken, he is now doubting his purpose, his place in the force, some hero he is, he created a monster worse than Darth Vader though his own fears, fears he still harbours, so how can he teach Rey to be a Jedi? Also this is why he believes the Jedi should end, his fear is turning to anger, turning him to the Darkside as Yoda warned, wallowing in his fear and anger is corrupting him and his beliefs.
But in the end Luke should have gone back with Rey, not because he's the galaxies greatest hero but because he is Luke and the one thing that motivates Luke more than anything is his loved ones, Leia is still in danger, more so than ever before in the OT what motivates Luke more than those he cares about? Luke can be conflicted all he wants, he is angry at Kylo, he wants revenge for Han, but he also still loves Ben, feels responsible for his action and knows that Han wouldn't want to see Ben hurt, so he's torn between his own anger and desire for revenge and his duty to honour Han and his wish to save Ben but also his need to save his sister and what remains of his friends.
I even think the end could play out mostly the same, Luke astral projecting onto the battlefield but from the Falcon, he has to do this because his body is somewhat beaten down and he knows he cannot face all those walkers alone, so he projects himself also to get inside the base and tell them of their way out, then he walks out to fight, he survives the blasts as he does and he faces Kylo, though in this I would say DO NOT make Kylo look like an idiot who is outclassed so badly by Luke, allow the projection to actually fight, we set up that Rey or Kylo manifested the effects from the others location earlier, I think Kylo got water on his hand from where Rey was right? so Luke can physically interact with Kylo, Kylo looks strong but Luke is stronger, but Luke like Obi-Wan gives in, except maybe here you don't have Kylo go for the killing blow as Luke has been using this time to forgive Ben for his actions, so when Luke offers himself Ben hesitates like he did with Leia earlier, but Luke knowing this is his destiny sacrifices himself on Kylo's blade, so Luke does still die, except not alone on wherever he was but on the Falcon surrounded by those he saved including his sister who he imparts words of hope to for Ben telling her Ben is still in there before both his physical and astral bodies become one with the force.
Broken hermit Luke could work, with the right motivations, I don't think Luke refusing to get involved works due to that not in any way being true to his character from the past movies, at worst he was like this when Obi-Wan offered him a chance but that was due to Luke feeling obligated to his family, Luke's friends and family have been a constant motivation for him in the series, so why he doesn't care about them in TLJ doesn't ring true to me, you could have Luke in TLJ having shut himself off from the Force after Han died, so he doesn't know the danger Leia is in, until Rey's persistence convinces him to once he does thats what motivates them to leave, Rey goes to face Kylo as she does because Kylo senses her, whilst Luke masks his presence and Rey does believe Ben can be saved still, so again the events mostly still play out the same just different motivations.
For me I watch TLJ and every character leaves the movie worse than they entered it, except Leia because she's in a coma for 80% of the damn thing, Luke's an idiot, Rey's an idiot though a powerful one, Kylo's a chump, Snoke is the ultimate chump, Hux is a buffoon, Finn's meh, Rose is a fucking moron, Holdo's also a moron but not quite as bad, Poe's a fool, it's like ok Chewie is Chewie and R2 and BB8 are still as they were but everyone else is like ok what is this a fucking moron convention? why the hell should we care about these idiots?
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Oct 10, 2020 15:29:13 GMT
The thing with TLJ for me is as I have said many times before is not the direction it took but the details in which it took them, Luke being in isolation, cut off from the force, openly resisting the pleads to re-join the fight, and being down on himself COULD have worked but RJ just told the story so poorly imo. For me Luke should have left to try and learn more about the Force, specifically a way to use the Force to purify ones soul or mind of the corruption of the Darkside, as we have seen Darkside users have used the force and other things to corrupt others under their control so Luke wanted to find a way to save his nephew, as well as get stronger to fight Snoke, so he is still connected to the Force he has felt the evil Kylo and Snoke have done, he felt the deaths of those worlds at their hands like Obi-Wan felt the destruction of Alderaan, but more specifically he felt Kylo kill Han and that is what has broken him, his actions pushed Ben over the edge and rather than stay to fight him he left for a "greater purpose" but in the end he just allowed billions or even trillions to die including one of his best friends. This would be why Luke would stay out of the fighting in TLJ and be hesitant to train Rey, he has JUST been broken, he is now doubting his purpose, his place in the force, some hero he is, he created a monster worse than Darth Vader though his own fears, fears he still harbours, so how can he teach Rey to be a Jedi? Also this is why he believes the Jedi should end, his fear is turning to anger, turning him to the Darkside as Yoda warned, wallowing in his fear and anger is corrupting him and his beliefs. But in the end Luke should have gone back with Rey, not because he's the galaxies greatest hero but because he is Luke and the one thing that motivates Luke more than anything is his loved ones, Leia is still in danger, more so than ever before in the OT what motivates Luke more than those he cares about? Luke can be conflicted all he wants, he is angry at Kylo, he wants revenge for Han, but he also still loves Ben, feels responsible for his action and knows that Han wouldn't want to see Ben hurt, so he's torn between his own anger and desire for revenge and his duty to honour Han and his wish to save Ben but also his need to save his sister and what remains of his friends. I even think the end could play out mostly the same, Luke astral projecting onto the battlefield but from the Falcon, he has to do this because his body is somewhat beaten down and he knows he cannot face all those walkers alone, so he projects himself also to get inside the base and tell them of their way out, then he walks out to fight, he survives the blasts as he does and he faces Kylo, though in this I would say DO NOT make Kylo look like an idiot who is outclassed so badly by Luke, allow the projection to actually fight, we set up that Rey or Kylo manifested the effects from the others location earlier, I think Kylo got water on his hand from where Rey was right? so Luke can physically interact with Kylo, Kylo looks strong but Luke is stronger, but Luke like Obi-Wan gives in, except maybe here you don't have Kylo go for the killing blow as Luke has been using this time to forgive Ben for his actions, so when Luke offers himself Ben hesitates like he did with Leia earlier, but Luke knowing this is his destiny sacrifices himself on Kylo's blade, so Luke does still die, except not alone on wherever he was but on the Falcon surrounded by those he saved including his sister who he imparts words of hope to for Ben telling her Ben is still in there before both his physical and astral bodies become one with the force. Broken hermit Luke could work, with the right motivations, I don't think Luke refusing to get involved works due to that not in any way being true to his character from the past movies, at worst he was like this when Obi-Wan offered him a chance but that was due to Luke feeling obligated to his family, Luke's friends and family have been a constant motivation for him in the series, so why he doesn't care about them in TLJ doesn't ring true to me, you could have Luke in TLJ having shut himself off from the Force after Han died, so he doesn't know the danger Leia is in, until Rey's persistence convinces him to once he does thats what motivates them to leave, Rey goes to face Kylo as she does because Kylo senses her, whilst Luke masks his presence and Rey does believe Ben can be saved still, so again the events mostly still play out the same just different motivations. For me I watch TLJ and every character leaves the movie worse than they entered it, except Leia because she's in a coma for 80% of the damn thing, Luke's an idiot, Rey's an idiot though a powerful one, Kylo's a chump, Snoke is the ultimate chump, Hux is a buffoon, Finn's meh, Rose is a fucking moron, Holdo's also a moron but not quite as bad, Poe's a fool, it's like ok Chewie is Chewie and R2 and BB8 are still as they were but everyone else is like ok what is this a fucking moron convention? why the hell should we care about these idiots? To me the biggest problem with the Luke Skywalker of TLJ is that ridiculous writing trope Rian Johnson used. The trope that Luke had a bad dream one night of Kylo’s Darkside future. So he decides to go in and kill him in his sleep. This is actually one of the most important story elements in the entire movie. Because it’s supposed to be the catalyst for Luke becoming a completely jaded character. It’s supposed to be the entire thing that transforms him into a bitter quitter! Here’s the problem with it! How does I guy who has proven he will do almost anything to sacrifice himself for his friends and family even contemplate reacting this way? How? I guy that had so much optimistic hope in conquering the Darkside with even the tiniest presence of the Light within the same individual, that he would risk his life, safety, and future as a Force user. And now this same guy is supposed to cowardly sneak into a kid’s bedroom and attempt to kill him in his sleep because of a “Darkside maybe” he had a dream about! And that’s the problem. The only way Luke could’ve done such a thing is if he ALREADY WAS EXTREMELY JADED. So that writing trope completely fails to be believable. It fails to be faithful to Luke’s established character. Here’s how this story element could’ve been written that is faithful to Luke’s character and actually enhances the story. Luke did try to kill Kylo (Ben Solo) but here’s what happened. Kylo is one Luke’s students being trained at the Jedi academy. But feeling ignored by his parents he is eager to get all of his self worth out of becoming a famous Jedi. The best who ever lived. Luke has ancient Jedi texts that are forbidden to students, only masters are allowed to read them. One day Kylo breaks into were they are kept and he reads about a planet named Achto. There are supposed to be ancient Jedi temple ruins there. And the ruins are supposed to allow a Jedi student to make very rapid advancement. So Kylo sneaks away to Achto (yes the planet that Luke was exiled on) and goes looking for the temple ruins. Luke finds out about it. But Luke knows something Kylo never learned in reading the texts. There is a cave there full of overpowering Darkside energy. (It could be the same cave we saw Rey go into). Luke rushes off to find and stop Kylo. But when he gets there he is too late. Kylo found the cave and was drawn by the Darkside to enter it. It begins to fill Kylo with Darkside desires he never had before. Luke finds the cave and senses that Kylo is inside. He knows that the cave can overpower even a master such as himself with the Darkside. But he feels compelled to go in to try to save Kylo. When he finds Kylo, the Darkside causes Luke to see Kylo with glowing yellow eyes and skin like Palpatine’s. He thinks Kylo has already transformed into a Sith lord. And Luke begins to have a vision of Kylo going on a murderous Sith rampage where he kills all of the other students and even his own mother and father! Luke draws his lightsaber. The Darkside tricks Luke into thinking Kylo has already drawn his own lightsaber. So Luke begins attacking Kylo and overwhelming him. Then Kylo screams out “Uncle Luke!” It snaps Luke out of it. But now it’s too late. As Luke pauses to regain his senses, Kylo runs away horrified that his uncle tried to kill him. And he turns to the Darkside. He flies back to the training academy and murders the other students. Luke arrives to find their corpses. He warns Han and Leia but now feels totally responsible. Luke decides the only thing he can do to make up for it is to exile himself to Achto and guard the entrance to the cave. So that no future students of the Light will ever repeat the same fate of Kylo. And this is why Luke refuses to be a teacher again. And this is why Luke refuses to ever leave Achto. In this scenario all of the reasons for the characters actions make sense. And it reflects a writing integrity to the characters as they have previously established themselves. Yes! That’s right! Rian Johnson wrote environmental elements into his own movie that he could’ve used to competently write the motives and transformation of Luke’s character! And Kylo’s character at the same time! And he didn’t even use them. Why? Because he wasn’t invested in any of the characters when he was writing them. Except for Rey. And at fewer times, Leia. Even fewer times Kylo, Holdo, and Rose. But Rey was mostly the character he stayed invested in. (Although he had a few writing moments with her that he didn’t but I digress). Mark Hamill said he told Johnson “Rian, we have to think about the fans”. And Rian’s response was “No we don’t. We have to think about the story”. And if you substitute the word “characters” for “fans” it pretty much sums up the reason behind Johnson’s writing failure. He wrote HOW Luke became the character he was in TLJ. But it was totally implausible because it didn’t explain WHY Luke could even do such a thing to become that character. Because he never was invested enough to. And Kathleen Kennedy only encouraged that process and green-lighted it for her own reasons.
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Post by jonesjxd on Nov 22, 2020 19:09:42 GMT
I don't think so
The Last Jedi is very much in the same style as Force Awakens and it takes the trilogy in the direction Force Awakens directed it too, is it bold storytelling? Compared to Force Awakens, yes, compared to the previous films, no. From a New Hope all the way up to Revenge of the Sith this series of movies have consistently taken left turns and challenged both its own characters and the audience. Even if we're just harping on the politics of the movie, let's not forget that George Lucas compared the Rebel Alliance to the Viet Cong, and makes direct comparisons between the Galactic Empire and the Nixon and Bush Administrations. These have always been political movies, the only difference is Rian Johnson triggered a nerve in a culture war.
Force Awakens purposefully doesn't challenge it's characters or audience, which is to an extent understandable because there was such immense pressure on them to make a Star Wars movie that felt like a Star Wars movie, but to me it doesn't feel like a Star Wars movie because it never challenges its characters. There is one specific scene I always point to as an example of why Force Awakens is not a true Star Wars movie. In the third act of the movie, when Finn, Han and Chewie sneak aboard the Starkiller Base to disable the shields and find Rey, there is literally a scene where the characters talk about how hard it'll be to find Rey, then immediately see her climbing up a wall, separated by a large gap. It immediately cuts to them bumping into each other. There is a an entire sequence that should've been between these two scenes, in A New Hope, there would've been an action scene within a suspense scene within another action scene to show you how Han, Chewie and Finn found a way across that gap and ended up in the same hallway as Rey. George Lucas would see this as an obstacle to challenge his heroes, while JJ Abrams just sees it as something boring to skip over. While the Last Jedi certainly has it's share of ambitious action set pieces, he's making the second film, where it's the dramatic boundaries that have to be overcome. He never takes a short cut, the same way as Lucas never did. His characters earn everything they overcome.
The fundamental difference between JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson, is that Abrams love of Star Wars stems from his love of his Star Wars action figures when he was young, so he took a job where he got to play with action figures. Rian Johnson's love of Star Wars stems from being a student of film, he hasn't just played with the toys and seen the movies a bunch of times, he's studied the movies that George Lucas studied. His Star Wars movie is just as influenced by Kurosawa, Wizard of Oz, westerns and WWII movies as it is influenced by Star Wars, and because of that it is a true Star Wars movie.
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