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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 26, 2020 9:06:30 GMT
A lot depends on context and there can be thousands of those. I am not following. People often use "working definitions" when some context arises that needs a new word or definition. Discussing miracles does as you say "depend on what you mean by" miracles and there can be many different discussions in many different contexts and they might require different terminology. A "working" definition is also called an "ad hoc" definition. Ignoring troublesome questions can be expedient, but asking students to call the tornado-junkyard-working-car argument a "false equivalence" insults their intelligence and the integrity of the school system.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 26, 2020 9:17:46 GMT
People often use "working definitions" when some context arises that needs a new word or definition. Discussing miracles does as you say "depend on what you mean by" miracles and there can be many different discussions in many different contexts and they might require different terminology. A "working" definition is also called an "ad hoc" definition. Ignoring troublesome questions can be expedient, but asking students to call the tornado-junkyard-working-car argument a "false equivalence" insults their intelligence and the integrity of the school system. Ignoring troublesome questions can also be a form of mental preservation. I do it all the time, because if I don't do it I tend to start not caring about anything. I often feel like my sanity (whatever sanity I have left ) will slip away completely. Depends on the question. There is a lot I am unable to understand. I can understand most stuff to a certain extent, but once much more intelligent people start getting deeper and more specific my brain feels like it is about to malfunction. I am not even that concerned with the end of the world. Life to me is just something to pass the time until I die. I am 37 and am already bored with my own existence, though I do still enjoy some stuff in my life. I hope to die before the age 60. If the judgmental God does exist, he can sort that shit out.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Sept 26, 2020 10:12:41 GMT
Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'.
It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable.
Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.'
No, it can't.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 26, 2020 11:22:31 GMT
Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'. It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable. Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.' No, it can't. And how does your big brain know all this for certain?
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Post by OldSamVimes on Sept 26, 2020 11:46:27 GMT
Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'. It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable. Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.' No, it can't. And how does your big brain know all this for certain? It's simple observation. If scientists have explained the foundation of consciousness, let me know. ...I'll wait.
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Post by rizdek on Sept 26, 2020 12:04:54 GMT
Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'. It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable. Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.' No, it can't. I'm not sure 'atheists' think that way. Perhaps some do. I certainly don't. I know my brain can't explain everything and I'm convinced humans are incapable of studying certain aspects of nature...IOW I agree with you...No, it/we can't. But that just means there is a ton of 'nature' we don't know about that could, theoretically, explain the conundrums of, say, consciousness.
So the question remains...how is consciousness explained? I think we can agree pretty much unreservedly that it DOES exist. So there must be an explanation.
If you say it's a big mystery and we'll never know...then I would agree. But I don't think it helps to push the explanation to some higher realm..,to God, the divine, the supernatural and just assert, based on nothing more than conjecture and guessing that this realm/God CAN be the explanation. I think that amounts to special pleading and if one is going to engage in special pleading they may as well just assert, with the same confidence that the natural world might be the explanation for consciousness.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Sept 26, 2020 12:11:24 GMT
Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'. It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable. Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.' No, it can't. I'm not sure 'atheists' think that way. Perhaps some do. I certainly don't. I know my brain can't explain everything and I'm convinced humans are incapable of studying certain aspects of nature...IOW I agree with you...No, it/we can't. But that just means there is a ton of 'nature' we don't know about that could, theoretically, explain the conundrums of, say, consciousness.
So the question remains...how is consciousness explained? I think we can agree pretty much unreservedly that it DOES exist. So there must be an explanation.
If you say it's a big mystery and we'll never know...then I would agree. But I don't think it helps to push the explanation to some higher realm..,to God, the divine, the supernatural and just assert, based on nothing more than conjecture and guessing that this realm/God CAN be the explanation. I think that amounts to special pleading and if one is going to engage in special pleading they may as well just assert, with the same confidence that the natural world might be the explanation for consciousness.
I can say, with the same confidence, that the natural world is a product OF consciousness. I think it's more believable that everything we experience is a product of consciousness rather than our consciousness being a product of everything. Can you have anything without consciousness?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 26, 2020 12:19:29 GMT
And how does your big brain know all this for certain? It's simple observation. If scientists have explained the foundation of consciousness, let me know. ...I'll wait. I think you missed the point, which was that if the human brain cannot for sure know everything that can be known, then how can we be sure that one knows that this is the case ? Also, while the 'hard problem' of consciousness is still, well, a problem that does not necessarily mean it must necessarily remain so.
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Post by rizdek on Sept 26, 2020 12:21:57 GMT
I'm not sure 'atheists' think that way. Perhaps some do. I certainly don't. I know my brain can't explain everything and I'm convinced humans are incapable of studying certain aspects of nature...IOW I agree with you...No, it/we can't. But that just means there is a ton of 'nature' we don't know about that could, theoretically, explain the conundrums of, say, consciousness.
So the question remains...how is consciousness explained? I think we can agree pretty much unreservedly that it DOES exist. So there must be an explanation.
If you say it's a big mystery and we'll never know...then I would agree. But I don't think it helps to push the explanation to some higher realm..,to God, the divine, the supernatural and just assert, based on nothing more than conjecture and guessing that this realm/God CAN be the explanation. I think that amounts to special pleading and if one is going to engage in special pleading they may as well just assert, with the same confidence that the natural world might be the explanation for consciousness.
I can say, with the same confidence, that the natural world is a product OF consciousness. I think it's more believable that everything we experience is a product of consciousness rather than our consciousness being a product of everything. Can you have anything without consciousness? That is the level of confidence I was referring to...so...I kind of already knew it.
But as to 'can you have anything without consciousness?' I don't know. Why not?
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 26, 2020 12:24:07 GMT
People often use "working definitions" when some context arises that needs a new word or definition. Discussing miracles does as you say "depend on what you mean by" miracles and there can be many different discussions in many different contexts and they might require different terminology. A "working" definition is also called an "ad hoc" definition. Ignoring troublesome questions can be expedient, but asking students to call the tornado-junkyard-working-car argument a "false equivalence" insults their intelligence and the integrity of the school system. Ignoring troublesome questions can also be a form of mental preservation. I do it all the time, because if I don't do it I tend to start not caring about anything. I often feel like my sanity (whatever sanity I have left ) will slip away completely. Depends on the question. There is a lot I am unable to understand. I can understand most stuff to a certain extent, but once much more intelligent people start getting deeper and more specific my brain feels like it is about to malfunction. I am not even that concerned with the end of the world. Life to me is just something to pass the time until I die. I am 37 and am already bored with my own existence, though I do still enjoy some stuff in my life. I hope to die before the age 60. If the judgmental God does exist, he can sort that shit out. I have always said that if you can sit all day by a lake and holding a fishing pole and it keeps food on your table and you out of debt you're a genius. I'm not sure I could do that. Never tried.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Sept 26, 2020 12:37:26 GMT
It's simple observation. If scientists have explained the foundation of consciousness, let me know. ...I'll wait. I think you missed the point, which was that if the human brain cannot for sure know everything that can be known, then how can we be sure that one knows that this is the case ? Also, while the 'hard problem' of consciousness is still, well, a problem that does not necessarily mean it must necessarily remain so. We cannot know for sure... just like we can't know for sure that a fruit fly cannot understand how a jet engine works. However, we've never seen a fruit fly build a jet engine, just like we've never seen a person who 'Knows everything there is to know'. Perhaps that analogy is poor... alas, I only have a human brain to work with.
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 26, 2020 12:45:25 GMT
It's simple observation. If scientists have explained the foundation of consciousness, let me know. ...I'll wait. I think you missed the point, which was that if the human brain cannot for sure know everything that can be known, then how can we be sure that one knows that this is the case ? Also, while the 'hard problem' of consciousness is still, well, a problem that does not necessarily mean it must necessarily remain so. What might be possible is that somebody already discovered the psi particle or both of them if there is one for input and one for output, and they just aren't sharing. You have quite the talent for missing the point yourself. The "just because it hasn't happen yet" argument is the exact same thing as the "absolutely anything can happen" argument. Fair warning, you probably will not be taken seriously. Of course some things are more likely than others. The top processing speed of CPUs peaked at about three gigahertz about twenty years ago. Then they more or less gave up and tried multiple CPUs, but that only helps with certain types of tasks (videos). You might want to sit there and say "that doesn't mean" CPUs can't run at five gigs "someday." But you do need to remember that there probably are limits and it is very possible we already found them. Or else anything can happen which might make you popular with the friends Marianne Williamson and Shirley MacLaine, but not with your "logic" dependent current crowd.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Sept 26, 2020 12:57:31 GMT
I think you missed the point, which was that if the human brain cannot for sure know everything that can be known, then how can we be sure that one knows that this is the case ? Also, while the 'hard problem' of consciousness is still, well, a problem that does not necessarily mean it must necessarily remain so. We cannot know for sure... just like we can't know for sure that a fruit fly cannot understand how a jet engine works. However, we've never seen a fruit fly build a jet engine, just like we've never seen a person who 'Knows everything there is to know'. Perhaps that analogy is poor... alas, I only have a human brain to work with. It is indeed poor; since to compare the potential for knowing of a human to a fruit fly is a false equivalence. But I am happy that you agree that we cannot know for sure about whether we will ever know, especially if the original claim is that we can never know everything, since that is the inevitable logic.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 26, 2020 13:05:53 GMT
Ignoring troublesome questions can also be a form of mental preservation. I do it all the time, because if I don't do it I tend to start not caring about anything. I often feel like my sanity (whatever sanity I have left ) will slip away completely. Depends on the question. There is a lot I am unable to understand. I can understand most stuff to a certain extent, but once much more intelligent people start getting deeper and more specific my brain feels like it is about to malfunction. I am not even that concerned with the end of the world. Life to me is just something to pass the time until I die. I am 37 and am already bored with my own existence, though I do still enjoy some stuff in my life. I hope to die before the age 60. If the judgmental God does exist, he can sort that shit out. I have always said that if you can sit all day by a lake and holding a fishing pole and it keeps food on your table and you out of debt you're a genius. I'm not sure I could do that. Never tried. I know I couldn't do that, but wish I could. Isn't that sort of what "off the grid" survivalists do?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Sept 26, 2020 15:38:42 GMT
Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'. It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable. Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.' No, it can't. "Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'. " Some folks? You mean highly educated neurologists that spend their entire lives studying this stuff? "It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable." You don't actually know that "Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.' " If by "atheists" you mean naturalists/materialists/skeptics/etc, that's not at all what they say. Typically what they say is more like "We don't know how something works, perhaps one day we will, perhaps we won't, either way it doesn't mean we get just to arbitrarily insert a magic sky genie as the answer until then".
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Post by Stammerhead on Sept 26, 2020 15:40:38 GMT
Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'. It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable. Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.' No, it can't. I’m quite happy living with the knowledge that we’ll never get to know everything and even if we did we’d disagree on what it actually means.
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 26, 2020 16:09:18 GMT
I have always said that if you can sit all day by a lake and holding a fishing pole and it keeps food on your table and you out of debt you're a genius. I'm not sure I could do that. Never tried. I know I couldn't do that, but wish I could. Isn't that sort of what "off the grid" survivalists do? I wish I knew.
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Post by rizdek on Sept 26, 2020 16:11:12 GMT
Have any brave Christian or Muslim scientists come out and said something like, 'if there is life on Venus, it's because God put it there...end of story!'?
Don't you see the irony here though? It seems you as an atheist are saying if there is life on Venus there is no God. Life on Venus has no bearing on the question of whether there is or is not a God. You're just as myopic as any theist. No that's not what that means at all. The point is that life on Venus would shed no light on whether there's a God or not.
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Post by Arlon10 on Sept 26, 2020 16:17:20 GMT
Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'. It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable. Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.' No, it can't. "Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'. " Some folks? You mean highly educated neurologists that spend their entire lives studying this stuff? "It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable." You don't actually know that "Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.' " If by "atheists" you mean naturalists/materialists/skeptics/etc, that's not at all what they say. Typically what they say is more like "We don't know how something works, perhaps one day we will, perhaps we won't, either way it doesn't mean we get just to arbitrarily insert a magic sky genie as the answer until then". That's an interesting rule. Who made it up, you? Why? Does it seem at all plausible to you that one day we might reach the limit of what can be known with the ordinary senses? It seems necessary to me. When we get there, if you keep believing in anything else it has to be a magic sky genie.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Sept 26, 2020 16:29:10 GMT
"Some folks seem to believe that someday scientists will explain how masses of neurons and biological matter can produce 'consciousness'. " Some folks? You mean highly educated neurologists that spend their entire lives studying this stuff? "It doesn't matter how finely you dissect the brain. You can map out every neuron and electrical impulse, consciousness as we experience it is unfathomable." You don't actually know that "Atheists are under the spell of 'species narcissism'. 'My big human brain can explain everything, if you give me enough time.' " If by "atheists" you mean naturalists/materialists/skeptics/etc, that's not at all what they say. Typically what they say is more like "We don't know how something works, perhaps one day we will, perhaps we won't, either way it doesn't mean we get just to arbitrarily insert a magic sky genie as the answer until then". That's an interesting rule. Who made it up, you? Why? Does it seem at all plausible to you that one day we might reach the limit of what can be known with the ordinary senses? It seems necessary to me. When we get there, if you keep believing in anything else it has to be a magic sky genie. "That's an interesting rule. Who made it up, you? Why??" Obivously not, God of the Gaps is a pretty well known meme. As for "why", trying to say "God done did it" is just intellectuall laziness and can hold back human progress and thinking. People used to think the sun was a god, imagine if people with your attitude had their way? We would still be bowing down to a giant ball of gas. People used to think rain was caused by rain gods, imagine if people like like you had their way? We would still be praying for rain whenever there's a drought. We used to think seizures and other brain disorders were caused by demons, imagine if people like you had their way? We would be trying people down with brain tumors and performing pointless exorcisms instead of performing brain surgery. You see where I'm going with this right? "Does it seem at all plausible to you that one day we might reach the limit of what can be known with the ordinary senses?" Perhaps, that doesn't really invalidate what I said. You're essentially just arguing from ignorance at that point. Just because something hasn't been disproven doesn't mean it's a feasible hypothesis. For all you know the earth could have been made by a race of outer space leprechauns. Oh what's that you, that's riddiculous? Well you can't disprove it, so it's a perfectly reasonoble hypothesis. You see the problem with that reasoning?
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