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Post by Power Ranger on Oct 1, 2020 13:07:42 GMT
OMG. I hate it so much. One the very worst films ever. Where to begin? The plot. It was NONSENSE.
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Post by Power Ranger on Oct 1, 2020 13:15:33 GMT
It reminds of Endgame in that it has some the best moments in the franchise, but as a movie, I just can't bring myself say I liked it. Best moments? Like what? |
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Oct 1, 2020 16:17:03 GMT
Hate is a strong word. But yes, I'm one of the few people who dislike this film. I dislike it even more that so many people hold it in such high esteem and I get attacked every time I try to criticize it. But sure, I'll try to give my criticisms: 1. The action completely sucks. This is not the biggest issue with the movie but it is one of the most obvious ones. And for a multi-million dollar movie of this level, it's actually pretty pathetic how bad the action scenes are. You have people falling down for no reason, punches that obviously never connect, clunky and slow choreography, inconsistencies in physics, etc. Speaking of inconsistencies... 2. So many inconsistencies and scenes with just plain dumb logic. There are youtube videos out there that list all of them but a few that I can remember were: Motorcycle goes into tunnel at daytime, exits the tunnel a few minutes later and it's fully night time. Police armed with batons charge a heavily armed militia (they even had a tank), and very few of the policemen are gunned down. Bruce Wayne has destroyed his joints, something about no longer having cartilege or something. He fixes this by putting a robo-brace on ONE knee. Later on doesn't even need the brace as spelunks around in prison. What the F??? Robin saying he figured out who Batman was from a look in his eyes. C'mon man, you can be far more creative than that! 3. Minimal character development - Bruce Wayne, Batman, Catwoman, Alfred, Talia, "Robin"... we don't really get that much development of their characters. Bruce Wayne/Batman is pretty much just riding the character wave of the first two movies. Alfred has one good scene but isn't really used. Robin, Talia and Catwoman have now been forgotten by majority of the population who watched it because they really were not well fleshed-out characters. Bane at least is memorable... but his character arc was basically done via exposition. 4. It was just kinda boring - I mean, still better than a good chunk of other blockbusters out there but compared to BB, TDK and majority of the MCU movies? Nothing much happens in this movie. There's some dramatic scenes here and there, a few lackluster action sets interspersed but nothing much happens other than a lot of thematic music and heavily-framed shots. The one cool scene that had good build-up and tension was the first fight between Bane and Batman... and that was marred by the crappy fight choreography. The next decent scene is Bruce trying to escape his prison. Other than that, majority of the scenes are pretty meh. To me, BB was still the best of that trilogy. The only thing that makes TDK kinda rival it (IMO) is Ledger's performance. If we take out Ledger's performance then TDK as a movie is clearly below BB. TDKR didn't have Ledger nor did it have the story, character development and uniqueness of Batman Begins. This is NOT an attack on you. But I would like to discuss some of the points you raised... 1) action sucks - That's a matter of taste. I liked the climactic batplane/truck sequence, I really liked Banes beat down of Batman, and I LOVED the opening airplane sequence. 2) Motorcycle goes into tunnel at daytime, exits the tunnel a few minutes later and it's fully night time - I might agree with that if not for two things: A) they were trying to show that time passed, and B) I've actually had it happen to me, where I go into a store to shop and when I come out a half hour later its dark out. Certain times of the year its like that. Hardly a reason to hate on a movie. 3) Bruce Wayne no longer having cartilage but spelunks around in prison. What the F??? - The point is that he's ignoring the pain his body feels. He's muscling through because "He's Batman!" Its one more kind of punishment that he endures and triumphs over. 4) Police armed with batons charge a heavily armed militia (they even had a tank), and very few of the policemen are gunned down. - to be fair very few of the villains are gunned down either. The cops were NOT only armed with batons. They may have been trapped underground but they still had their guns with them. As for the tank... actually there were two present and Batman takes out one of them before the cops charge. I think the point overall is that both "armies" if you will were large enough that even if some died up front there was still going to be a large battle. (If anything I find it more egregious that 3000 cops didn't find a way to escape the tunnels earlier themselves!) 4) Minimal character development - I'll give you that one. The problem is that there are too many characters. Third movies in a franchise always have this problem. Spider-Man 3 anyone? But they still do a better job than other similar third movies. 5) Robin figured out who Batman was from a look in his eyes. - This one I can take or leave. Its neither here nor there. I think the point of this scene is that Robin and he have a kind of connection because of their pasts, and that Robin is a particularly sharp dude for a rookie. Also its a way to info dump for his character in a short scene. 6) Boring? Again, a matter of taste. I love that thematically the story is as much an attack on Bruce Waynes soul as it is on the city of Gotham itself. That's not necessarily bombastic, but it is engaging. Thanks
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 1, 2020 18:29:39 GMT
Hate is a strong word. But yes, I'm one of the few people who dislike this film. I dislike it even more that so many people hold it in such high esteem and I get attacked every time I try to criticize it. But sure, I'll try to give my criticisms: 1. The action completely sucks. This is not the biggest issue with the movie but it is one of the most obvious ones. And for a multi-million dollar movie of this level, it's actually pretty pathetic how bad the action scenes are. You have people falling down for no reason, punches that obviously never connect, clunky and slow choreography, inconsistencies in physics, etc. Speaking of inconsistencies... 2. So many inconsistencies and scenes with just plain dumb logic. There are youtube videos out there that list all of them but a few that I can remember were: Motorcycle goes into tunnel at daytime, exits the tunnel a few minutes later and it's fully night time. Police armed with batons charge a heavily armed militia (they even had a tank), and very few of the policemen are gunned down. Bruce Wayne has destroyed his joints, something about no longer having cartilege or something. He fixes this by putting a robo-brace on ONE knee. Later on doesn't even need the brace as spelunks around in prison. What the F??? Robin saying he figured out who Batman was from a look in his eyes. C'mon man, you can be far more creative than that! 3. Minimal character development - Bruce Wayne, Batman, Catwoman, Alfred, Talia, "Robin"... we don't really get that much development of their characters. Bruce Wayne/Batman is pretty much just riding the character wave of the first two movies. Alfred has one good scene but isn't really used. Robin, Talia and Catwoman have now been forgotten by majority of the population who watched it because they really were not well fleshed-out characters. Bane at least is memorable... but his character arc was basically done via exposition. 4. It was just kinda boring - I mean, still better than a good chunk of other blockbusters out there but compared to BB, TDK and majority of the MCU movies? Nothing much happens in this movie. There's some dramatic scenes here and there, a few lackluster action sets interspersed but nothing much happens other than a lot of thematic music and heavily-framed shots. The one cool scene that had good build-up and tension was the first fight between Bane and Batman... and that was marred by the crappy fight choreography. The next decent scene is Bruce trying to escape his prison. Other than that, majority of the scenes are pretty meh. To me, BB was still the best of that trilogy. The only thing that makes TDK kinda rival it (IMO) is Ledger's performance. If we take out Ledger's performance then TDK as a movie is clearly below BB. TDKR didn't have Ledger nor did it have the story, character development and uniqueness of Batman Begins. This is NOT an attack on you. But I would like to discuss some of the points you raised... 1) action sucks - That's a matter of taste. I liked the climactic batplane/truck sequence, I really liked Banes beat down of Batman, and I LOVED the opening airplane sequence. 2) Motorcycle goes into tunnel at daytime, exits the tunnel a few minutes later and it's fully night time - I might agree with that if not for two things: A) they were trying to show that time passed, and B) I've actually had it happen to me, where I go into a store to shop and when I come out a half hour later its dark out. Certain times of the year its like that. Hardly a reason to hate on a movie. 3) Bruce Wayne no longer having cartilage but spelunks around in prison. What the F??? - The point is that he's ignoring the pain his body feels. He's muscling through because "He's Batman!" Its one more kind of punishment that he endures and triumphs over. 4) Police armed with batons charge a heavily armed militia (they even had a tank), and very few of the policemen are gunned down. - to be fair very few of the villains are gunned down either. The cops were NOT only armed with batons. They may have been trapped underground but they still had their guns with them. As for the tank... actually there were two present and Batman takes out one of them before the cops charge. I think the point overall is that both "armies" if you will were large enough that even if some died up front there was still going to be a large battle. (If anything I find it more egregious that 3000 cops didn't find a way to escape the tunnels earlier themselves!) 4) Minimal character development - I'll give you that one. The problem is that there are too many characters. Third movies in a franchise always have this problem. Spider-Man 3 anyone? But they still do a better job than other similar third movies. 5) Robin figured out who Batman was from a look in his eyes. - This one I can take or leave. Its neither here nor there. I think the point of this scene is that Robin and he have a kind of connection because of their pasts, and that Robin is a particularly sharp dude for a rookie. Also its a way to info dump for his character in a short scene. 6) Boring? Again, a matter of taste. I love that thematically the story is as much an attack on Bruce Waynes soul as it is on the city of Gotham itself. That's not necessarily bombastic, but it is engaging. Thanks 1. Sorry, let me clarify. It's the fight scenes that suck, as most of their vehicular action scenes were pretty good. And it's not just a matter of taste either when you have people falling down for no reason like this:  That's just plain sloppy no matter how you look at it. Plus the fact that the choreography is very slow and clunky. Even the big fight between Bane and Batman had multiple shots where the punches obviously weren't connecting. 2. We're not talking about half an hour, we're talking about 5 mins or less. There's no way you can defend going into a tunnel in full daylight and coming out in the other end to full darkness within 5 minutes. 3. It's not about ignoring pain, it's about his knees and shoulders and elbows not fully functioning. He could barely walk without a cane in the beginning and then for some reason he puts on a one knee brace and it fixes all his joints? Heck he removes it later and what, he suddenly grows back cartilage or something? 4. I rewatched the scene. There were 3 tanks, Batman disabled only one. Some policemen had pistols but most were armed with batons. That's still far less firearms than what Bane's militia had. In the end, the police were able to charge across about a hundred meters of open space with very minimal losses. Doesn't matter if the militia also suffered few losses, fact is it was a stupidly directed scene and I expected more from Nolan. 5. As far as Robin goes... it might not matter much to you (probably doesn't matter to most audiences) but it does show a general laziness and lack of care in terms of character development. 6. Yes, it was a matter of taste and I can understand and respect other people liking it. But... an attack on Bruce Wayne's soul? That's a bit much don't you think? Anyway in the end, I'm not saying it's a bad movie. I'm just saying that I dislike it mostly for the fact that 1. It's pretty sloppy when you consider Nolan's standards 2. I feel it's greatly exaggerated by its fans. If most people talked about this like they talk about MOS then I probably wouldn't care much. But the fact that a lot of people consider this a better movie than BB does irritate me a bit. I don't mean to bash this movie, but I often find myself having to point out its various weaknesses to people who keep praising the hell out of it. I found myself in a similar situation with Endgame.
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Post by hobowar on Oct 1, 2020 20:30:44 GMT
It reminds of Endgame in that it has some the best moments in the franchise, but as a movie, I just can't bring myself say I liked it. Best moments? Like what? The Bat-Wing
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Oct 2, 2020 0:27:25 GMT
It's kind of ludicrous to make a movie that starts off cribbing from The Dark Knight Returns with an older, retired Batman trying to get his groove back, then crib from Knightfall with a crippled Batman trying to get his groove back. It's like the movie starts and then restarts midway. Then he retires again at the end anyway.
Then it's generally disappointing that after TDK was a weighty, philosophical battle between two differing personalities, TDKR is just about punching a guy and stopping a bomb. Even BB, which also revolved around a doomsday plot, had a conflict of ideologies at the heart of it. Bane and Talia's motives are recycled at best, but essentially thin and irrelevant.
All of this punctuated by a million gaps in logic you'd call nitpicks (but add up).
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Oct 3, 2020 17:36:59 GMT
This is NOT an attack on you. But I would like to discuss some of the points you raised... 6) Boring? Again, a matter of taste. I love that thematically the story is as much an attack on Bruce Waynes soul as it is on the city of Gotham itself. That's not necessarily bombastic, but it is engaging. Thanks 6. Yes, it was a matter of taste and I can understand and respect other people liking it. But... an attack on Bruce Wayne's soul? That's a bit much don't you think? No, I don't think its a bit much. That's exactly what the story is. They destroy Batman, they destroy Bruce Waynes fortune, they destroy the peace that was created by the lie he and Gordon told about Dent, they wreck the city he loves, and ultimately plan to blow it up altogether, and they have him watch it all live from a prison from which there is no hope of escaping. They destroy him and everything he loves. Its a total attack on every level. The only thing they don't do to him is kick him in the nuts!
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Oct 3, 2020 21:51:26 GMT
6. Yes, it was a matter of taste and I can understand and respect other people liking it. But... an attack on Bruce Wayne's soul? That's a bit much don't you think? No, I don't think its a bit much. That's exactly what the story is. They destroy Batman, they destroy Bruce Waynes fortune, they destroy the peace that was created by the lie he and Gordon told about Dent, they wreck the city he loves, and ultimately plan to blow it up altogether, and they have him watch it all live from a prison from which there is no hope of escaping. They destroy him and everything he loves. Its a total attack on every level. The only thing they don't do to him is kick him in the nuts! All in service of a mentor/father who....didn't like them and kicked them out. I don't know why Nolan included that detail except for the 6 anal rentitive losers that would have complained about their absence in BB. Anyone think it'd be a better movie if they just left the pit out of it? Like, it's cool symbolism and all, but it just overcomplicates the plot. And since they're already cribbing Knightfall and introducing "Robin", why not actually use those things? Make the final act about training his successor to fight Bane instead of having Bruce cure himself with push ups and then leave his entire legacy to some wet eared cop with no experience. Honestly, I think you could just leave out the bomb, too. Have Bane and Talia overtake the city with their fairly legitimate reasons and let Bruce live with the ensuing chaos. The bomb is a ticking clock for the sake of it. Really, the movie is mostly okay until the second half flies off the rails. |
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Post by quagsjonny on Oct 4, 2020 0:15:27 GMT
Please give me some of the reasons you don't like Dark Knight Rises. Personally I love the movie. I think it suffers from being just a notch below Dark Knight (and third in a franchise) and because of that people hate on it. Whereas Dark Knight was an improvement over Batman Begins, Rises was a notch below, so "it sucks". But no one's really been able to give me a reasoned explanation why they don't like it. I thought it was good. I knew it was a trilogy. I think the weaker were #1, great story but slow pace, # 2 Heath love. All were good, including Rises.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 4, 2020 1:25:18 GMT
I am glad I never got around to watching it based on the comments here.
I saw the costume pics for Catwoman and decided I can skip it without missing anything.
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gromel
Sophomore
@gromel
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Post by gromel on Oct 4, 2020 5:25:34 GMT
I liked the first two but haven't seen it. Don't really feel the need and I've basically been spoiled through stuff like Bane memes. Same year as Avengers 1, so perhaps the MCU made the Nolanverse feel a bit passe and killjoy at the time. Funnily enough, Spider-Man 3 was the same year as TDK and Iron Man 1 (edit: no, just a year behind) and the Nolanverse and Iron Man made Raimi Spidey feel passe at the time, so what goes around comes around. Always the old and busted vs. the new hotness. But the later Spidey-related movies underscored the good stuff in the Raimi ones that they don't match or even attempt to, and I'll always remember the TDK hype fondly. Its viral marketing with ARGs and stuff was something to see.
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Jason143
Junior Member
@glaceon
Posts: 1,242
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Post by Jason143 on Oct 6, 2020 10:43:14 GMT
Its a great movie and has got better as time goes on. The only blatant plot inconsistency is how Blake could guess that Bruce was Batman with conviction. That moment is weak but the rest of the movie is fine and other "plot holes" can be explained pretty easily.
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Jason143
Junior Member
@glaceon
Posts: 1,242
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Post by Jason143 on Oct 6, 2020 10:53:14 GMT
TDKR is just about punching a guy and stopping a bomb. Even BB, which also revolved around a doomsday plot, had a conflict of ideologies at the heart of it. Bane and Talia's motives are recycled at best, but essentially thin and irrelevant. This is what most superhero movies are about. Why TDKR gets more criticism for it I dont know. There isnt an ideological conflict between hero and villain per se because the movie is about Bruces inner torment and having to rise up from literal rock bottom to take on a physical match that he has never encountered before. Its the perfect story that the trilogy needed. In BB hes young, fresh and ready to take on the world. In TDK hes at is peak. And TDKR hes on the decline yet overcomes insurmountable odds and finds his redemption. |
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 6, 2020 18:51:52 GMT
Its a great movie and has got better as time goes on. The only blatant plot inconsistency is how Blake could guess that Bruce was Batman with conviction. That moment is weak but the rest of the movie is fine and other "plot holes" can be explained pretty easily. Oh I can list a whole bunch of other "plot holes" that aren't easily explained. 1. How can cops who've been stuck underground for months turn up clean-shaven and not look malnourished? I get that people were slipping them supplies here and there but that doesn't explain their peachy appearance. 2. How do you fix a broken back by punching it in place? 3. How do you fix having no cartilage in your joints by wearing a single knee brace? 4. How does Batman go from being completely helpless against Bane to matching him in hand to hand just by escaping a pit? 5. How do policemen who've been stuck underground for 5 months and armed with batons and a view pistols not get immediately slaughtered by a superior armed militia? 6. Why do you have fight scenes where random guys start falling over despite never getting hit with anything?
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Oct 7, 2020 3:22:38 GMT
TDKR is just about punching a guy and stopping a bomb. Even BB, which also revolved around a doomsday plot, had a conflict of ideologies at the heart of it. Bane and Talia's motives are recycled at best, but essentially thin and irrelevant. There isnt an ideological conflict between hero and villain per se because the movie is about Bruces inner torment and having to rise up from literal rock bottom to take on a physical match that he has never encountered before. Its the perfect story that the trilogy needed. In BB hes young, fresh and ready to take on the world. In TDK hes at is peak. And TDKR hes on the decline yet overcomes insurmountable odds and finds his redemption. I mean, you might be a little less confused if you left in the first half of that sentence where I explain why. Refresher: the first two movies were also about "Bruce's inner torment and having to rise up from literal rock bottom to take on a match that he has never encountered before". Like, literally both of them. They just managed to also tell a story and have compelling villains while they were at it. TDKR, despite being nearly three hours long, for some reason skipped all that. Not that it would have been very hard to incorporate ideological battles. The Dark Knight Returns, its biggest influence, was full of them. And if it's not enough to negatively compare a movie to the two movies its succeeding, I honestly could not believe a movie in 2012 - especially a Nolan movie, but really any movie for that matter - was doing something Austin Powers made fun of for already being trite and cliche back in 1997. 
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Post by thisguy4000 on Oct 7, 2020 4:06:15 GMT
In terms of the ideological themes of TDKR, the main idea is that Bruce has essentially become empty and suicidal, and needs to learn to regain the fear of death in order to overcome his demons and be the hero Gotham deserves. I’m not the first person to mention this, but if the theme of BB is fear, while the theme of TDK is order and chaos, then the theme of TDKR is pain. There’s admittedly not much of an emphasis on showing an ideological battle with the villains, but Bane does point out to Batman that because Batman feels he has nothing to lose (ergo, not being afraid of dying), he will never be able to win. All in all though, Nolan chose Bane as the villain because he wanted someone who could pose a physical challenge to Batman.
As for the nuke plot, I can understand why some people aren’t fond of it, but Nolan is a big James Bond fan, so he was obviously homage to that.
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Jason143
Junior Member
@glaceon
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Post by Jason143 on Oct 7, 2020 10:40:47 GMT
Oh I can list a whole bunch of other "plot holes" that aren't easily explained. 1. How can cops who've been stuck underground for months turn up clean-shaven and not look malnourished? I get that people were slipping them supplies here and there but that doesn't explain their peachy appearance. Nitpick. I hardly noticed this during the movie and youd need a very keen eye to examine their exact condition. They had some black soot on their face, they looked tired and as you say they were given supplies, including razors most likely. Thats enough for the average viewer. The movie shows and explains this information just enough so theres no need for further examination. Maybe it wasn't broken. The guy mentioned a bone protruding from his back, which he smacked back in. And took Bruce weeks of rehab and training to heal. The guy also was sharing a cell with a doctor to whom he could describe the injury and give him advice. Not unreasonable or far fetched. It was a mechanized knee brace, something which looks very advanced piece of medical tech. It must have acted as a shock absorber for high impacts. Again a little demonstration of this is shown in the movie when he kicks a brick wall, and thats sufficent. This is really a complaint? He learns in the prison that Banes mask is a needed for him to remain painless. So when Batman faces him again he targets this weakpoint. Beforehand Bruce didnt know why Bane wore that mask. The front line do get slaughtered in the charge. And during the main fighting we can assume many more do get killed. We just dont see it because the focus is on Batman vs Bane. Its an entire city's police force which are large numbers. This is a legitimate flaw. |
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Jason143
Junior Member
@glaceon
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Post by Jason143 on Oct 7, 2020 10:53:08 GMT
I honestly could not believe a movie in 2012 - especially a Nolan movie, but really any movie for that matter - was doing something Austin Powers made fun of for already being trite and cliche back in 1997. Why is a comic book movie, which TDKR is by the way, about holding people hostage and detonating nulcear bombs shameful or in any way corny? The Avengers literally does the same story in 2012. TDKR just executes it in a more real world setting. And I'm glad it is does. The trilogy needed to go out on a epic scale with a bombastic finale. If it sacrificed some ideological conflict in favor of a brute physical challenge for Batman, then it's not a problem because if you want the former, people can go back and watch The Dark Knight. There was no way TDK could be topped and Nolan was smart enough to change direction. |
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Oct 8, 2020 19:34:44 GMT
I honestly could not believe a movie in 2012 - especially a Nolan movie, but really any movie for that matter - was doing something Austin Powers made fun of for already being trite and cliche back in 1997. Why is a comic book movie, which TDKR is by the way, about holding people hostage and detonating nulcear bombs shameful or in any way corny? The Avengers literally does the same story in 2012. TDKR just executes it in a more real world setting. And I'm glad it is does. The trilogy needed to go out on a epic scale with a bombastic finale. If it sacrificed some ideological conflict in favor of a brute physical challenge for Batman, then it's not a problem because if you want the former, people can go back and watch The Dark Knight. There was no way TDK could be topped and Nolan was smart enough to change direction. I literally said why in that literal paragraph you literally quoted. And who said anything about The Avengers? Are you one of those guys who needs to make everything a DC vs Marvel debate? Maybe you should double check my avatar. I'm glad you're glad Nolan decided to close a thoughtful trilogy that transcended the CBM artform with a big dumb mess. The guy has continued to make ambitious movies since, so not sure why he didn't bother for TDKR or why that decision should be celebrated. |
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Oct 8, 2020 20:38:40 GMT
In terms of the ideological themes of TDKR, the main idea is that Bruce has essentially become empty and suicidal, and needs to learn to regain the fear of death in order to overcome his demons and be the hero Gotham deserves. He stops one threat, not through anything he's learned really, and then re-retires. I'm not sure I'd call "empty" and "suicidal" ideologies anyhow, but they certainly aren't contrasted much with Bane who's even emptier and more suicidal. Might have paid to make him an actual revolutionary instead of just trolling Gotham under the guise of one, but alas. I do get the movie is very into the inner conflict of Bruce, I just feel the first two also hit those notes while simultaneously working in the outer conflict. |
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