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Post by SciFive on Oct 6, 2020 21:01:03 GMT
If a policeman is standing next to you in a store and watching your hands while you wish to steal something, what do you do? You don’t commit the crime. What do you do if no one is looking and you can get away with it? Hopefully, you don’t commit the crime then, either. It’s a moral choice and you had the chance to make it. ————— From a Chabad article for the Jewish perspective: This week, I am teaching my five year old to ride a bike. Right now, she can ride with training wheels, and even then she falls once in a while. I could chase after her and ensure that she would never fall. And I could leave the training wheels on forever. But that is not the purpose. I want her to be able to ride off into the blue, without me. That is what being a father is all about. G‑d is great because He gives us a world and tells us to fix it. He could have given us a happy, care-bear world and just enjoined us to have fun. But that would not be true kindness and He would not be a father. It would not be our world; it would be nothing more than a playpen we were tossed into. We would have no meaning, and life no value... So instead, He brought us here, gave us basic directions, held on to us for a while, sending us Moses and the prophets and then the sages, and then eventually, took off the training wheels and let us go.... ——————— www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/712708/jewish/Why-Doesnt-Gd-Show-Himself-Anymore.htm |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Oct 6, 2020 21:24:18 GMT
Most likely because he probably doesn't exist. The best one can do is perhaps make an argument for a "deist" god of sorts (doesn't reveal itself, doesn't answer prayer, doesn't cause miracles, etc). But even those types of argument are rather poor.
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Post by Isapop on Oct 7, 2020 0:08:21 GMT
If a policeman is standing next to you in a store and watching your hands while you wish to steal something, what do you do? You don’t commit the crime. What do you do if no one is looking and you can get away with it? Hopefully, you don’t commit the crime then, either. It’s a moral choice and you had the chance to make it. The very first human in the Bible would seem to demonstrate that knowing with proof that God exists (in Adam's case, hearing God's voice) won't stop someone from sinning.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Oct 7, 2020 8:38:26 GMT
The obvious answer is, its because God does not exist.
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Post by Winter_King on Oct 7, 2020 8:44:01 GMT
If a policeman is standing next to you in a store and watching your hands while you wish to steal something, what do you do? You don’t commit the crime. What do you do if no one is looking and you can get away with it? Hopefully, you don’t commit the crime then, either. It’s a moral choice and you had the chance to make it. The very first human in the Bible would seem to demonstrate that knowing with proof that God exists (in Adam's case, hearing God's voice) won't stop someone from sinning. I also wonder why only a few humans actually interacted and witness miracles according to the Bible thus have someevidence for them to accept His existence. Sounds a bit unfair for the rest of us.
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Post by SciFive on Oct 7, 2020 9:05:17 GMT
The OP is a couple of takes on the Jewish perspective.
If we all knew with 100% certainty that God exists, it would have an impact on what a great many people do. It would be like having a policeman looking over your shoulder at all times.
Moral choices can be made whether we know Someone is watching or not. It’s a good goal.
Again, it’s a religious Jewish perspective - obviously, everyone else’s mileage may vary.
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Post by Isapop on Oct 7, 2020 10:02:46 GMT
The OP is a couple of takes on the Jewish perspective. If we all knew with 100% certainty that God exists, it would have an impact on what a great many people do. It would be like having a policeman looking over your shoulder at all times. This view is neither expressed nor implied in the Chabad excerpt you cite. The excerpt doesn't even address the topic of God remaining hidden.
The notion that God doesn't prove his existence because we would be constrained from sin is just your own reasoning, and is (seen in Adam) refuted by the very book that you claim to get your knowledge of God from.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Oct 7, 2020 11:11:29 GMT
Because the God you are talking about doesn't exist. How convenient and simpleminded to hide behind a glib moral parable, to prove that God wont prove his existence because of the journey we need to learn and grow into ourselves. This is going to be learned with or without Yahweh.
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Post by rizdek on Oct 7, 2020 11:54:15 GMT
Do you think everyone who is thoroughly convinced God exists always does the moral thing?
Seems to me it is obvious 'knowing' that God exists doesn't keep people from doing evil. Best I can tell from the OT, the Israelites were often instructed to slaughter other people....down to the women and children and livestock. And even if they didn't actually DO any of the things they wrote that their God wanted them to do...writing it down was evil because I think it led to lots of other atrocities throughout history. Was what they were told to do moral or were they simply wrong in their interpretation of what God wanted them to do. The Jews in Jesus' time seemed hellbent on having Jesus executed for his blasphemy yet they also seem totally convinced God existed. Best I can tell, the RCC throughout the middle ages did horrible things all the while genuflecting and groveling before the Christian God. As I understand it, Hitler was not an atheist and still committed horrendous act slaughtering millions. Some extremist Muslims commit horrible acts of terror all the while totally and unequivocally convinced God exists. People's for millennia kept/traded in slaves yet by and large ALL OF THEM knew God existed. Even today, we see evidence of deeply religious and theistically convinced individuals doing what most much of the rest of society sees as immoral.
But more importantly, I just don't get why a world without sin, because everyone was absolutely convinced God exists and was absolutely sure exactly what God wanted them to do, is so bad. There is a lot of latitude in what one can do while only doing good and never committing heinous violent crimes or lying cheating or stealing. One can live their lives out with lots of flexibility and variation of only moral things to do. In fact I would guess that for most people, most of their decisions...important beneficial decisions don't involve a choice between right and wrong at all. Do you see every decision you make in your daily life always and absolutely a moral decision?
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Post by Isapop on Oct 7, 2020 13:46:00 GMT
The very first human in the Bible would seem to demonstrate that knowing with proof that God exists (in Adam's case, hearing God's voice) won't stop someone from sinning. I also wonder why only a few humans actually interacted and witness miracles according to the Bible thus have someevidence for them to accept His existence. Sounds a bit unfair for the rest of us. Yes, it does seem unfair that certain Bible characters are so highly regarded without having to rely on FAITH to believe in God. Just add this to the list of other examples of unfairness or injustice by the Biblical God: Making sinfulness hereditary on Adam's unborn children. Killing the firstborn sons in Egypt. Various other executions of children for the fault of their parents. Denying marriage to gay couples.
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Post by SciFive on Oct 7, 2020 15:51:11 GMT
Firstborns aren’t implied at all to be children necessarily.
Siblings in their 90s include a firstborn if they are all still alive.
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Post by SciFive on Oct 7, 2020 15:53:22 GMT
Original sin isn’t in the Jewish Bible.
“In traditional Christian teaching, original sin is the result of Adam and Eve's disobedience to God when they ate a forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden.”
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Post by SciFive on Oct 7, 2020 15:55:05 GMT
The Jewish bible disapproves of sex between males.
Women aren’t mentioned.
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Post by SciFive on Oct 7, 2020 15:56:15 GMT
“Various other executions of children for the fault of their parents.”
Executions? Are you kidding?
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Post by Catman 猫的主人 on Oct 7, 2020 16:24:14 GMT
Catman has it on good authority that it's on God's to-do list, but hey, he's a busy guy what with running the whole multiverse thing taking up his days and nights.
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Post by Isapop on Oct 7, 2020 16:37:06 GMT
Firstborns aren’t implied at all to be children necessarily. Siblings in their 90s include a firstborn if they are all still alive. Congratulations. You've replicated the first (and lamest) of the attempted defenses of this event when it was brought up a year or two before. And the answer: No one says every first born is a child. But it is ludicrous on its face to suggest "all first borns" won't include plenty of children.
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Post by SciFive on Oct 7, 2020 16:40:19 GMT
Firstborns aren’t implied at all to be children necessarily. Siblings in their 90s include a firstborn if they are all still alive. What I said is correct. Firstborns aren’t implied to be children but some people assume this. They’re wrong. |
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Post by Isapop on Oct 7, 2020 16:54:15 GMT
What I said is correct. Firstborns aren’t implied to be children but some people assume this. They’re wrong. So, when the Bible specifies, "Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well", you're asking people to believe that this does not include children. Is there any notion so outlandish that you won't still attempt to argue it?
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Post by SciFive on Oct 7, 2020 17:06:51 GMT
What I said is correct. Firstborns aren’t implied to be children but some people assume this. They’re wrong. Some people assume ONLY children and they are wrong, |
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Post by Isapop on Oct 7, 2020 17:10:03 GMT
Some people assume ONLY children and they are wrong, So what? It doesn't change the point about God killing children one bit. Did you take this up just to avoid the point?
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