|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 14, 2020 12:10:05 GMT
You are assuming incorrectly that there is "zero" evidence. To put that another way, you believe there is zero evidence. That is one reason (there are more) it is "ludicrous" (dish / take) to claim you lack belief. The internet is replete with such nonsense because for decades now in real science it has been increasingly obvious that science is hitting a brick wall and absolutely cannot explain how life could begin in any "natural" lifeless scenario whatsoever. A large number of people had assumed from the time of Darwin that science would one day "soon" demonstrate "animalcules" assembling by sheer chance. They had become accustomed to assuming that religion is totally irrelevant and even blaming it for all the trouble in the world. Bad habits are hard to break. There has been a backlash against the shining truth that religion might be misguided, but there definitely needs to be some. I mentioned other reasons. It is indeed more complicated. Quite often the problem in these arguments about the existence of god is that there are obviously different definitions of a god being used by each side. "Debating" makes no sense unless both sides debate the same topic. Usually atheists are defining god in a way that no one else would. Children are given the impression of god as an old man with long white hair and a beard who lives in the clouds. That however is only an accommodation to children who cannot understand abstract ideas very well yet. There are three things with distinctively different and independent characteristics that people mean when they talk about a god. - The abstract or indirectly identified forces in nature and society that assist society in developing ethical codes.
- A benevolent director of spiritual or "extrasensory" phenomena such as clairvoyance, premonition, and other knowledge by revelation.
- The answer to the question how life originated on a previously molten planet, which rather obviously is not found in lifeless nature, thus "supernatural" or intelligent.
To argue that there is "no evidence" for #1 is ludicrous because it is as evident as baseball. You can see the people going into and coming out of the buildings. It is important to understand that most people who attend religious services use this definition far above all others.
Arguments for extrasensory perception #2 are problematic in that it is so easily faked. However there tests and evidence where first hand witnesses can see proof. If a child suddenly speaks a language never experienced or studied the mother will know it was a special revelation because she knows exactly where the child has been and with whom the child's entire life, the rest of the world will just assume the child did have exposure to the language or studied it from books. Various denominations have various attitudes to spiritual phenomena. Some recognize it being possible in the modern world ("Pentecostals" for example) and some do not.
The intelligent designer #3 is now a fact. The tornado-in-a-junkyard argument against assembly is well established. To claim there is a "false equivalence" between the biological construction and the tornado is that "backlash" against the obvious truth. The only people who assert a false equivalence are people who never use words as long as "equivalence" otherwise and think they sound intelligent.
How do you believe in nothing? And it is not nearly as complicated as you make out. You either do or don't believe in God. That you believe in a specific god does add to the complication because not only do you have to prove there is a god but that god is Yahweh. You can pull out all the usual suspects like the watchmaker or first causes, but until you can definitively prove there is a small "g" god, you can't prove there is a big "G" one either. So no matter what I believe, you still got a handful of nothing. Strike three! And you're out!
|
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 14, 2020 13:46:59 GMT
To argue that there is "no evidence" for #1 is ludicrous because it is as evident as baseball. This will just be the start of a serious exchanges where Arlon is unable to offer, as usual any positive evidence for a supernatural cause. What we will get is either the God of the Gaps, or an argument from credulity. It might also be observed that the belief there is no positive evidence for God is not the same as a belief there is no deity. However since I have never seen baseball except in images and in newspapers, as with Arlon and the matter of heart transplants, I am sure I can be allowed by him on the same basis to doubt that the game even exists. In regards to the Argument from Design, some may not know that Darwin himself had a reply to this. Biological evolution refers to the cumulative changes that occur in a population over time. These changes are produced at the genetic level as organisms' genes mutate and/or recombine in different ways during reproduction and are passed on to future generations. So the question is: does God really 'design' each little change, over and over, to move things along? (Him being so continuously busy and all might explain why the entity is too engaged to make Himself known, clearly and unambiguously, to a sceptical world!)
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 14, 2020 13:53:47 GMT
To argue that there is "no evidence" for #1 is ludicrous because it is as evident as baseball. This will just be the start of a serious exchanges where Arlon is unable to offer, as usual any positive evidence for a supernatural cause. What we will get is either the God of the Gaps, or an argument from credulity. It might also be observed that the belief there is no positive evidence for God is not the same as a belief there is no deity. However since I have never seen baseball except in images and in newspapers, as with Arlon and the matter of heart transplants, I am sure I can be allowed by him on the same basis to doubt that the game even exists. In regards to the Argument from Design, some may not know that Darwin himself had a reply to this. Biological evolution refers to the cumulative changes that occur in a population over time. These changes are produced at the genetic level as organisms' genes mutate and/or recombine in different ways during reproduction and are passed on to future generations. So the question is: does God really 'design' each little change, over and over, as things move along? ^^ FilmFlaneur is not my sock. I would swear with Tom Petty as a witness if I could get Tom Petty to witness.
|
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 14, 2020 13:55:12 GMT
This will just be the start of a serious exchanges where Arlon is unable to offer, as usual any positive evidence for a supernatural cause. What we will get is either the God of the Gaps, or an argument from credulity. It might also be observed that the belief there is no positive evidence for God is not the same as a belief there is no deity. However since I have never seen baseball except in images and in newspapers, as with Arlon and the matter of heart transplants, I am sure I can be allowed by him on the same basis to doubt that the game even exists. In regards to the Argument from Design, some may not know that Darwin himself had a reply to this. Biological evolution refers to the cumulative changes that occur in a population over time. These changes are produced at the genetic level as organisms' genes mutate and/or recombine in different ways during reproduction and are passed on to future generations. So the question is: does God really 'design' each little change, over and over, as things move along? ^^ FilmFlaneur is not my sock. I would swear with Tom Petty as a witness if I could get Tom Petty to witness. I see Arlon does not even bother addressing my points, which is a shame, if telling.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 14, 2020 14:17:53 GMT
[Yadda, yadda, yadda, blah,blah, blah, yadda, yadda, blah] I see Arlon does not even bother addressing my points, which is a shame, if telling. The shame is your incapacity to follow anything no matter how clearly set forward.
|
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 14, 2020 14:20:10 GMT
[Yadda, yadda, yadda, blah,blah, blah, yadda, yadda, blah] I see Arlon does not even bother addressing my points, which is a shame, if telling. The shame is your incapacity to follow anything no matter how clearly set forward. Still not addressing the points raised, and it is hard to see your often rambling and verbose prose style as setting anything out 'clearly' very often.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 14, 2020 14:25:08 GMT
The shame is your incapacity to follow anything no matter how clearly set forward. Still not addressing the points raised, and it is hard to see your often rambling and verbose prose style as setting anything out 'clearly' very often. To whom it may concern ^^ that ^^ is haranguing. I do not harangue. I have always allowed every individual any definition they chose except to notice politely where criteria are missing or out of date.
|
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 14, 2020 14:28:56 GMT
Still not addressing the points raised, and it is hard to see your often rambling and verbose prose style as setting anything out 'clearly' very often. To whom it may concern ^^ that ^^ is haranguing. I do not harangue. I have always allowed every individual any definition they chose except to notice politely where criteria are missing or out of date. Oh well, perhaps next time. But since you mention it: harangue (OED) /həˈraŋ/ verb gerund or present participle: haranguing lecture (someone) at length in an aggressive and critical manner: "he harangued the public on their ignorance"as in And I am sure you have many virtues, but politeness is often not one of them - as might be expected from one who has spent an entire thread arguing that ad hominems, or personal insults, are an acceptable and non-fallacious way to proceed in a disputation.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 14, 2020 15:36:07 GMT
To whom it may concern ^^ that ^^ is haranguing. I do not harangue. I have always allowed every individual any definition they chose except to notice politely where criteria are missing or out of date. Oh well, perhaps next time. But since you mention it: harangue (OED) /həˈraŋ/ verb gerund or present participle: haranguing lecture (someone) at length in an aggressive and critical manner: "he harangued the public on their ignorance"as in And I am sure you have many virtues, but politeness is often not one of them - as might be expected from one who has spent an entire thread arguing that ad hominems, or personal insults, are an acceptable and non-fallacious way to proceed in a disputation. Here's the problem, sir. There is a limit. Some people, not necessarily here, exceed limits. If we choose to ignore that they have exceeded limits that leads to a much more serious problem than public embarrassment. It is the overthrow of good sense. There has to be a line. As usual when I explain why I need to do something, you are likely going to think you should do it too, or rather instead. However you lack the ability to apply rules correctly so on and on go the ridiculous repetitions.
|
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 14, 2020 18:04:36 GMT
Oh well, perhaps next time. But since you mention it: harangue (OED) /həˈraŋ/ verb gerund or present participle: haranguing lecture (someone) at length in an aggressive and critical manner: "he harangued the public on their ignorance"as in And I am sure you have many virtues, but politeness is often not one of them - as might be expected from one who has spent an entire thread arguing that ad hominems, or personal insults, are an acceptable and non-fallacious way to proceed in a disputation. Here's the problem, sir. There is a limit. Some people, not necessarily here, exceed limits. If we choose to ignore that they have exceeded limits that leads to a much more serious problem than public embarrassment. It is the overthrow of good sense. There has to be a line. As usual when I explain why I need to do something, you are likely going to think you should do it too, or rather instead. However you lack the ability to apply rules correctly so on and on go the ridiculous repetitions. Don't worry; my patience has few limits. But I never think I should do what you do, when you do it so easily.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 14, 2020 19:31:35 GMT
Here's the problem, sir. There is a limit. Some people, not necessarily here, exceed limits. If we choose to ignore that they have exceeded limits that leads to a much more serious problem than public embarrassment. It is the overthrow of good sense. There has to be a line. As usual when I explain why I need to do something, you are likely going to think you should do it too, or rather instead. However you lack the ability to apply rules correctly so on and on go the ridiculous repetitions. Don't worry; my patience has few limits. But I never think I should do what you do, when you do it so easily. You never do it right. That's the problem. Useless repetition again, sorry, folks.
|
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 15, 2020 0:46:40 GMT
Don't worry; my patience has few limits. But I never think I should do what you do, when you do it so easily. You never do it right. That's the problem. Useless repetition again, sorry, folks. Do it right then lol. Stop the usual repetitive evasion and just answer my points from earlier.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 15, 2020 2:16:45 GMT
Here's a "group" that I hope he has the good sense to stay clear of. 
I did join the Mickey Mouse Fan Club as a child....
If had to bet, I’d say these men are Trump voters.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 15, 2020 2:20:56 GMT
How do you believe in nothing? And it is not nearly as complicated as you make out. You either do or don't believe in God. That you believe in a specific god does add to the complication because not only do you have to prove there is a god but that god is Yahweh. You can pull out all the usual suspects like the watchmaker or first causes, but until you can definitively prove there is a small "g" god, you can't prove there is a big "G" one either. So no matter what I believe, you still got a handful of nothing. Strike three! And you're out! You’re a shitty umpire because you keep moving the goalposts.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 15, 2020 2:22:58 GMT
Here's the problem, sir. There is a limit. Some people, not necessarily here, exceed limits. If we choose to ignore that they have exceeded limits that leads to a much more serious problem than public embarrassment. It is the overthrow of good sense. There has to be a line. As usual when I explain why I need to do something, you are likely going to think you should do it too, or rather instead. However you lack the ability to apply rules correctly so on and on go the ridiculous repetitions. Don't worry; my patience has few limits. But I never think I should do what you do, when you do it so easily. It is the overthrow of good sense.I think that happened when over half of the Good Christians Around here voted for Trump.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 15, 2020 11:04:28 GMT
Don't worry; my patience has few limits. But I never think I should do what you do, when you do it so easily. It is the overthrow of good sense.I think that happened when over half of the Good Christians Around here voted for Trump. I'm certain you have this "voted for Trump" thing all wrong. I'm certain people who voted Republican were voting against the Democratic Party without much confidence in Trump. That is of course much like the people who voted Democratic were voting against Trump without much confidence in the the Democratic Party. What a sad commentary that is on the political process recently. Wouldn't you agree?
|
|