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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 13:20:35 GMT
Arguably the 2 greatest leadoff men in baseball history. So who was the GOAT in the #1 spot in the batting order?
Rickey Henderson was better at stealing bases. Ichiro had a higher batting average and produced more hits.
I'd say Ichiro. He was also outstanding at defense in the outfield.
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Post by NJtoTX on May 7, 2017 13:30:30 GMT
Wish Ichiro had played those last 4 or 5 Japan years in the MLB. Ricky had nearly 300 HR, 2295 Runs (the record) and 1406 steals (the record by far). OPS a lot higher. Does have the record for being caught 335 times. Got 1 gold glove, but average fielder overall.
Have to go Rickey. I'm sure Ichiro could have gotten the HRs if he wanted, though.
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Post by shadyvsesham on May 7, 2017 14:10:01 GMT
Man, this is a GOOD question!
Like NJ said I wish Ichiro would have played more in the MLB. Man Im so torn.....Ill go SLIGHTLY Ichiro here. Hell, if there was an all time MLB draft, for lead off hitters, and someone took Ichiro and Rickey was still on the board.
Id be happy af grabbing him.
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Post by NJtoTX on May 7, 2017 14:25:46 GMT
Steals of Home All Time Leaders
1. Ty Cobb 54
2. Max Carey 33
3. George Burns 28
4. Honus Wagner 27
5. Sherry Magee 23
5 . Frank Schulte 23
7. Johnny Evers 21
8. George Sisler 20
9. Frankie Frisch 19
9. Jackie Robinson 19
Others:
Rod Carew 17
Lou Gehrig 15
Babe Ruth 10
Rickey Henderson 4
Lou Brock 2
I believe Ichiro tried one and was out.
Babe Ruth 10
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joshf1
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Post by joshf1 on May 7, 2017 14:42:14 GMT
Offensively, Ichiro was a better hitter and he hit in worse lineups than Ricky Henderson. Defensively, Ricky was a better fielder and could cover more ground.
Ideally, you want your leadoff hitter to get on base. So in that category...it's Ichiro. But of course when they are on base, it's even better of they can steal 2nd. So in that category, it's Ricky.
I'm going to call it a tie!
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Post by NJtoTX on May 7, 2017 15:14:52 GMT
Offensively, Ichiro was a better hitter and he hit in worse lineups than Ricky Henderson. Defensively, Ricky was a better fielder and could cover more ground. Ideally, you want your leadoff hitter to get on base. So in that category...it's Ichiro. But of course when they are on base, it's even better of they can steal 2nd. So in that category, it's Ricky. I'm going to call it a tie! Could cover more ground, but 10 consecutive Gold Gloves for Ichiro, tying Ken Griffey Jr., Andruw Jones, and Al Kaline, and trailing only Roberto Clemente and Willie Mays (twelve each) for major league outfielders. 1 for Rickey in strike-shortened 1981. Ichiro could bring HRs back and still has a rifle arm. RF in Safeco was knowns as Area 51. Ichiro also won three Fielding Bible Award for his statistically based defensive excellence in right field. |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on May 7, 2017 16:56:19 GMT
As much as I admire Ichiro as a player, I'd go with Rickey Henderson. If you didn't see him in his prime, you can't realize how disruptive Henderson was. If he reached 1st, you knew he was taking 2nd. So you would see the pitcher make 25 throws to 1st, run a 3-0 count of the batter and watch Rickey swipe 2nd anyway. I believe he hit so many leadoff HR's because pitchers were so afraid to walk him. Ichiro is the greatest player I've ever seen, Poop on the power numbers, his defense, his hitting, his speed everything. I always thought Ichiro was the one person who could have threatened DiMaggio's hit streak, because I think the pressure would have rolled off him. But the question was who was the best leadoff hitter.
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Post by susie2017 on May 7, 2017 18:22:45 GMT
They are both iconic. It's a tie!
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 19:24:33 GMT
Really tough choice. At the end of the day, you can't go wrong with either.
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Post by tucotherat on May 8, 2017 2:30:37 GMT
Arguably the 2 greatest leadoff men in baseball history. So who was the GOAT in the #1 spot in the batting order? Rickey Henderson was better at stealing bases. Ichiro had a higher batting average and produced more hits. I'd say Ichiro. He was also outstanding at defense in the outfield.
Didn't see much of Ichiro, practically nothing, but I seriously doubt he was better than Henderson. Defensively he was most probably better, I have seen highlights of him and at the very least he had a much better arm. Rickey Henderson was a SERIOUSLY DISRUPTIVE presence when he was on base, and he got on base A LOT; his effect on the pitcher is only partially reflected in the statistics, i.e. his runs scored, he doesn't get credit for the increase in the other batters' performance, specifically for this case, a leftie named Dwayne Murphy who batted second, a mediocre at best hitter.
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joshf1
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Post by joshf1 on May 8, 2017 3:25:30 GMT
Offensively, Ichiro was a better hitter and he hit in worse lineups than Ricky Henderson. Defensively, Ricky was a better fielder and could cover more ground. Ideally, you want your leadoff hitter to get on base. So in that category...it's Ichiro. But of course when they are on base, it's even better of they can steal 2nd. So in that category, it's Ricky. I'm going to call it a tie! Could cover more ground, but 10 consecutive Gold Gloves for Ichiro, tying Ken Griffey Jr., Andruw Jones, and Al Kaline, and trailing only Roberto Clemente and Willie Mays (twelve each) for major league outfielders. 1 for Rickey in strike-shortened 1981. Ichiro could bring HRs back and still has a rifle arm. RF in Safeco was knowns as Area 51. Ichiro also won three Fielding Bible Award for his statistically based defensive excellence in right field. |
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joshf1
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Post by joshf1 on May 8, 2017 3:26:33 GMT
I didn't realize Ichirio won that many Gold Gloves and Ricky so few
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Post by _ on May 8, 2017 20:21:24 GMT
First of all, you asked who was the better "leadoff man", so defensive play is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
So, let's compare some stats that actually are relevant:
Catergory / Rickey / Ichiro
On Base Percent / .401 / .355
Stolen Bases / 1406 / 508
Base On Balls / 2190 / 628
Runs Scored / 2295 / 1398
Runs Created / 2164 / 1480
Offensive WAR / 104.2 / 47.3
I think we're done here.
It's a "no brainer".
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Post by _ on May 8, 2017 20:29:48 GMT
"...you want your leadoff hitter to get on base. So in that category... it's Ichiro." Rickey has a ( much ) higher career OBP ( .401 vs .355 ) |
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joshf1
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Post by joshf1 on May 9, 2017 13:07:56 GMT
First of all, you asked who was the better "leadoff man", so defensive play is completely irrelevant to the discussion. So, let's compare some stats that actually are relevant: Catergory / Rickey / IchiroOn Base Percent / .401 / .355 Stolen Bases / 1406 / 508 Base On Balls / 2190 / 628 Runs Scored / 2295 / 1398 Runs Created / 2164 / 1480 Offensive WAR / 104.2 / 47.3 I think we're done here. It's a "no brainer". |
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Post by joshf1 on May 9, 2017 13:11:11 GMT
I guess that's fair. The OP didn't mention defense, but some of us assumed that "lead off man"...while referring to batting order, also encompassed fielding.
With that said, the stats that Ackbar (it's a trap!) listed certainly shift the argument heavily towards Ricky. I'm specifically looking at OBP and Stolen Bases as standing out in favor of RH.
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Post by _ on May 9, 2017 16:11:50 GMT
I guess that's fair. The OP didn't mention defense, but some of us assumed that "lead off man"...while referring to batting order, also encompassed fielding. With that said, the stats that Ackbar (it's a trap!) listed certainly shift the argument heavily towards Ricky. I'm specifically looking at OBP and Stolen Bases as standing out in favor of RH. The ones that shocked me the most were offensive WAR ( more than double! ) and base on balls ( 3.5 times! ) |
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Post by NJtoTX on May 9, 2017 17:13:50 GMT
First of all, you asked who was the better "leadoff man", so defensive play is completely irrelevant to the discussion. So, let's compare some stats that actually are relevant: Catergory / Rickey / IchiroOn Base Percent / .401 / .355 Stolen Bases / 1406 / 508 Base On Balls / 2190 / 628 Runs Scored / 2295 / 1398 Runs Created / 2164 / 1480 Offensive WAR / 104.2 / 47.3 I think we're done here. It's a "no brainer". Eh, I just saw the question as referring to why the matchup was done by the OP, not that it had to limit to what each does on the first at bat of the game and by being in that spot in the order. No one's going to subtract off what either did when they batted in a different spot, say later in their careers. |
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Post by _ on May 9, 2017 17:40:25 GMT
First of all, you asked who was the better "leadoff man", so defensive play is completely irrelevant to the discussion. So, let's compare some stats that actually are relevant: Catergory / Rickey / IchiroOn Base Percent / .401 / .355 Stolen Bases / 1406 / 508 Base On Balls / 2190 / 628 Runs Scored / 2295 / 1398 Runs Created / 2164 / 1480 Offensive WAR / 104.2 / 47.3 I think we're done here. It's a "no brainer". Eh, I just saw the question as referring to why the matchup was done by the OP, not that it had to limit to what each does on the first at bat of the game and by being in that spot in the order. No one's going to subtract off what either did when they batted in a different spot, say later in their careers. No, I agree, I just decided to "only" use offensive stats, not defensive ones, and, just to clarify, I did not alter the career stats in any way ( i.e. I did not deduct anything based on batting order ) |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2017 13:29:36 GMT
First of all, you asked who was the better "leadoff man", so defensive play is completely irrelevant to the discussion. So, let's compare some stats that actually are relevant: Catergory / Rickey / IchiroOn Base Percent / .401 / .355 Stolen Bases / 1406 / 508 Base On Balls / 2190 / 628 Runs Scored / 2295 / 1398 Runs Created / 2164 / 1480 Offensive WAR / 104.2 / 47.3 I think we're done here. It's a "no brainer". Eh, I just saw the question as referring to why the matchup was done by the OP, not that it had to limit to what each does on the first at bat of the game and by being in that spot in the order. No one's going to subtract off what either did when they batted in a different spot, say later in their careers. Rickey Henderson had a longer MLB career. Ichiro played some of his best years in Japan. He also holds the MLB record with 262 hits in a single season. OBP is a very important statistic and I'm surprised to see Rickey has a higher OBT considering Ichiro was a better hitter with a higher batting average. Ichiro achieved 10 consecutive 200-hit seasons, the longest streak by any player in history. He makes a good argument for Henderson with those stats. If you do not consider defensive abilities then I'd probably say Rickey Henderson due to the fact that he was the greatest base runner of all time. However Ichiro generated more hits and had far fewer walks which elevates Rickey's OBP. Even with all of those walks the OBP is pretty close. If you consider the complete player (including defense) I would say Ichiro Suzuki. |
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