shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Nov 17, 2020 17:33:33 GMT
Everything is a retcon when there is a sequel. Doubly so when it's a sequel set in a prequel. I was going to argue "logical fallacy!", but when it comes to Disney Star Wars, that's actually a pretty accurate statement. All they can do is retcon stuff because they can't make memorable stories of their own. They have to ride George Lucas' coattails.
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 17, 2020 21:21:19 GMT
Everything is a retcon when there is a sequel. Doubly so when it's a sequel set in a prequel. I was going to argue "logical fallacy!", but when it comes to Disney Star Wars, that's actually a pretty accurate statement. All they can do is retcon stuff because they can't make memorable stories of their own. They have to ride George Lucas' coattails. Well, every sequel changes things or even builds off of what happened before. A lot of the times it could just be something we thought we saw that really didn't happen. But it was just them changing what happened in a previous movie to bring someone back or create drama for the hero. The problem with having a sequel trilogy is that it came out decades after people have the OT set in stone.
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 17, 2020 21:29:00 GMT
A few well written animated episodes aside, bringing Darth Maul back to life was ridiculous under the circumstances that he died. Then again, so was the decision that Palpatine survived this...
He didn't. Clones and Force Ghosts and mind transfers and fantasy. Crazy how all that works.
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Post by dazz on Nov 17, 2020 21:57:09 GMT
Everything is a retcon when there is a sequel. Doubly so when it's a sequel set in a prequel. I was going to argue "logical fallacy!", but when it comes to Disney Star Wars, that's actually a pretty accurate statement. All they can do is retcon stuff because they can't make memorable stories of their own. They have to ride George Lucas' coattails. Well Lucas retconned his own work multiple times, he never had a clear vision of SW despite what he later claimed, like Luke and Leia being siblings is a retcon, Vader being their dad is a retcon, Obi-Wan being Qui Gon's Padawan is a retcon, Anakin being the chosen one is a retcon, and so on, Lucas was playing shit by ear and retconned shit all the time, he forgot key parts of the lore he set up in the OT when making the PT and had to force things in to explain it. It's not that the DT retconned stuff but that the DT rehashed the OT but with less skill or heart, as such rendering the OT narratively meaningless because nothing done or achieved in them outside of Han boning Leia means dick all of diddly, it's specifically the retconning to allow them to rehash shit ala ROS bringing back Palpatine that's the worst because it's not retconning something for a cool idea or a better pay off, like with Maul they retcon his death so he can play a pivotal role in Clone Wars then Rebel's, in ROS they retcon the impact of Vader "killing" Palpatine just to repeat it with Rey because they had no other idea due to the mishandling of the trilogy up until that point, but most specifically that blame should go to JJ, his SW films hell even one of his ST films are just blatant rehashes of prior canon with less nuance or merit, it's JJ swinging his dick going I can do it better, then doing it worse, much, much worse.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Nov 18, 2020 2:14:04 GMT
Well, every sequel changes things or even builds off of what happened before. A lot of the times it could just be something we thought we saw that really didn't happen. But it was just them changing what happened in a previous movie to bring someone back or create drama for the hero. The problem with having a sequel trilogy is that it came out decades after people have the OT set in stone. Building off of a story isn't necessarily a retcon. 'Retcon' is a shortened way of saying 'retroactive continuity'. It's a literary device of revising what was previously established to make the new narrative fit. In doing so, the previous facts are often contradicted or ignored. Simply writing a story about Han Solo as an older man isn't a retcon - it's just a continuation of his story. However, if someone wrote that Han was secretly a Jedi the entire time he had known Luke and Leia, that would be a retcon. It revises canon to make the new story fit. It's retroactive continuity. I'll give you another example. No one can touch a lightsaber blade without being wounded. Perhaps one day a writer will retcon it so that when the hero is disarmed in the final duel scene, and as the antagonist brings the blade down to strike the killing blow, the hero grabs onto the blade (similar to the end scene of Rob Roy) long enough to grab his/her lightsaber from the floor and run it through the antagonist (naturally defeating and mortally wounding the antagonist). The reasoning by the writer can be that "if you use enough of the Force, the blade can't hurt you!" Retcon. It isn't a problem for a writer worth his/her paycheck. If they can't handle it, don't take the job.
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senan90
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Post by senan90 on Nov 18, 2020 2:34:47 GMT
A few well written animated episodes aside, bringing Darth Maul back to life was ridiculous under the circumstances that he died. Then again, so was the decision that Palpatine survived this...
He didn't. Clones and Force Ghosts and mind transfers and fantasy. Crazy how all that works. I was always under the impression that Sidious and Palpatine were clones in the prequels which would explain how he would he need to multitask: communicate with the Separatists whilst operating as Chancellor on Coruscant. It would serve as a contingency plan in the obvious situation such as Anakin failing to protect him from Windu in the arrest scene. It would also explain that he needed the cloning technology to ensure immortality and to possibly manipulate Anakin into thinking he would come back to life again.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Nov 18, 2020 2:43:45 GMT
Well Lucas retconned his own work multiple times, he never had a clear vision of SW despite what he later claimed, like Luke and Leia being siblings is a retcon, Vader being their dad is a retcon, Obi-Wan being Qui Gon's Padawan is a retcon, Anakin being the chosen one is a retcon, and so on, Lucas was playing shit by ear and retconned shit all the time, he forgot key parts of the lore he set up in the OT when making the PT and had to force things in to explain it. It's not that the DT retconned stuff but that the DT rehashed the OT but with less skill or heart, as such rendering the OT narratively meaningless because nothing done or achieved in them outside of Han boning Leia means dick all of diddly, it's specifically the retconning to allow them to rehash shit ala ROS bringing back Palpatine that's the worst because it's not retconning something for a cool idea or a better pay off, like with Maul they retcon his death so he can play a pivotal role in Clone Wars then Rebel's, in ROS they retcon the impact of Vader "killing" Palpatine just to repeat it with Rey because they had no other idea due to the mishandling of the trilogy up until that point, but most specifically that blame should go to JJ, his SW films hell even one of his ST films are just blatant rehashes of prior canon with less nuance or merit, it's JJ swinging his dick going I can do it better, then doing it worse, much, much worse. I didn't really like Lucas retconned stuff either. I do give him some leeway since he's the creator of it all, but I just won't support other writers playing fast and loose with the canon. If you mess with someone else's creation, you should be held to a higher level of scrutiny, in my opinion.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Nov 18, 2020 7:11:07 GMT
Well Lucas retconned his own work multiple times, he never had a clear vision of SW despite what he later claimed, like Luke and Leia being siblings is a retcon, Vader being their dad is a retcon, Obi-Wan being Qui Gon's Padawan is a retcon, Anakin being the chosen one is a retcon, and so on... You have examples here where which you can either consider good retcons vs bad or retcons vs reveals. e.g. Vader being their father I consider a reveal rather than a retcon. It doesn't change any established continuity. Qui Gon on the other hand clearly flies in the face of Obi Wan's "I took it upon myself to train him" line. That is a clear retcon which, to my mind, de-canonises the prequels. It absolutely doesn't fit with the original backstory to the OT.
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Post by dazz on Nov 18, 2020 12:24:25 GMT
Well Lucas retconned his own work multiple times, he never had a clear vision of SW despite what he later claimed, like Luke and Leia being siblings is a retcon, Vader being their dad is a retcon, Obi-Wan being Qui Gon's Padawan is a retcon, Anakin being the chosen one is a retcon, and so on, Lucas was playing shit by ear and retconned shit all the time, he forgot key parts of the lore he set up in the OT when making the PT and had to force things in to explain it. It's not that the DT retconned stuff but that the DT rehashed the OT but with less skill or heart, as such rendering the OT narratively meaningless because nothing done or achieved in them outside of Han boning Leia means dick all of diddly, it's specifically the retconning to allow them to rehash shit ala ROS bringing back Palpatine that's the worst because it's not retconning something for a cool idea or a better pay off, like with Maul they retcon his death so he can play a pivotal role in Clone Wars then Rebel's, in ROS they retcon the impact of Vader "killing" Palpatine just to repeat it with Rey because they had no other idea due to the mishandling of the trilogy up until that point, but most specifically that blame should go to JJ, his SW films hell even one of his ST films are just blatant rehashes of prior canon with less nuance or merit, it's JJ swinging his dick going I can do it better, then doing it worse, much, much worse. I didn't really like Lucas retconned stuff either. I do give him some leeway since he's the creator of it all, but I just won't support other writers playing fast and loose with the canon. If you mess with someone else's creation, you should be held to a higher level of scrutiny, in my opinion. Yeah if you are taking over someone else's work I think retcons need to be beneficial to your story but not detrimental to the previous one, which is where I think JJ's retcons are atrocious because it does nothing but neuter the OT of impact, nothing they did mattered according to JJ, that's why to me I don't care if they bring Boba Fett back, his death is meaningless in the OT, so him being alive in Mandalorian is like ok whatever, now if they retcon it so Boba Fett is now the uncrowned missing heir to the throne of Mandalore then I would be like WTF is this shit? But it being Lucas's work is also I think why I am ok with Maul being alive also, that was under Lucas's watch, may have even been his idea so it's like yeah cool, also why I am more at ease with stuff Filoni does as he was kind of Lucas's apprentice of sorts, so stuff he does feels more true to the story of SW.
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Post by dazz on Nov 18, 2020 12:31:13 GMT
Well Lucas retconned his own work multiple times, he never had a clear vision of SW despite what he later claimed, like Luke and Leia being siblings is a retcon, Vader being their dad is a retcon, Obi-Wan being Qui Gon's Padawan is a retcon, Anakin being the chosen one is a retcon, and so on... You have examples here where which you can either consider good retcons vs bad or retcons vs reveals. e.g. Vader being their father I consider a reveal rather than a retcon. It doesn't change any established continuity. Qui Gon on the other hand clearly flies in the face of Obi Wan's "I took it upon myself to train him" line. That is a clear retcon which, to my mind, de-canonises the prequels. It absolutely doesn't fit with the original backstory to the OT. The Obi-Wan line I think is more contradicting him saying he thought he could train Anakin like Yoda trained him, Obi Wan did take it upon himself, the council were against it but Obi Wan took it upon himself to follow the wishes of his master over the council, so thats not really a retcon, but Qui Gon being Obi Wan's master is a retcon. Vader being their father and the family connection Luke had to Leia and Vader in Empire then Jedi I feel is a retcon considering Vader was in close proximity to both in ANH and didn't even get a twinge off of either of them? That and the clumsy excuse of what I said is true from a certain point of view.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Nov 18, 2020 15:03:02 GMT
The Obi-Wan line I think is more contradicting him saying he thought he could train Anakin like Yoda trained him, Obi Wan did take it upon himself, the council were against it but Obi Wan took it upon himself to follow the wishes of his master over the council, so thats not really a retcon, but Qui Gon being Obi Wan's master is a retcon. Vader being their father and the family connection Luke had to Leia and Vader in Empire then Jedi I feel is a retcon considering Vader was in close proximity to both in ANH and didn't even get a twinge off of either of them? That and the clumsy excuse of what I said is true from a certain point of view. Qui Gon's dying words are to get a promise out of Obi Wan to train him. So not so much taking it upon yourself to train him, thinking you could do as well as Yoda, as literally being requested to train him by a retconned character... Vader being their father is a different thing from from him being able to specifically sense family members. I'm not sure that's even a thing? However he obviously does sense the force is strong with Luke in ANH...
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Post by dazz on Nov 18, 2020 15:36:04 GMT
The Obi-Wan line I think is more contradicting him saying he thought he could train Anakin like Yoda trained him, Obi Wan did take it upon himself, the council were against it but Obi Wan took it upon himself to follow the wishes of his master over the council, so thats not really a retcon, but Qui Gon being Obi Wan's master is a retcon. Vader being their father and the family connection Luke had to Leia and Vader in Empire then Jedi I feel is a retcon considering Vader was in close proximity to both in ANH and didn't even get a twinge off of either of them? That and the clumsy excuse of what I said is true from a certain point of view. Qui Gon's dying words are to get a promise out of Obi Wan to train him. So not so much taking it upon yourself to train him, thinking you could do as well as Yoda, as literally being requested to train him by a retconned character... Vader being their father is a different thing from from him being able to specifically sense family members. I'm not sure that's even a thing? However he obviously does sense the force is strong with Luke in ANH... But that is still the same thing, Obi Wan trained Anakin and was going to with or without the councils consent, he took it upon himself to honour Qui Gon rather than obey the council. With the family thing, I dunno Luke and Vader can sense each other in Jedi from vast distances, Vader and Kenobi only sensed one another one both were aboard the Death Star, and Leia sensed Luke was in trouble when in need during Empire before she knew or tried to use the force, and Luke is in no way as powerful or attuned a Jedi as Kenobi was at that point, so there must be some connection beyond just their force power that allows them to connect so much easier to one another than others imo. Kylo can also sense Leia in TLJ when attacking the ships which is why he doesn't fire on her command centre but someone else does, and vice versa, so I think their is a added connection with blood relatives, where they do sense one another when not using the force, but others need to be using the force for them to sense one another more often than not, which is why it doesn't happen in ANH, Leia wasn't planned to be Vader's kid, or Luke's sister, or have the force or any of it until the later films.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Nov 18, 2020 16:20:33 GMT
Yes, DT stuff aside that's how I take it that Vader wouldn't sense Leia, i.e. not using the force.
I'm sure there must be some expanded universe stuff (old or new!) which explains that Luke / Leia telepathy being due to an emotional connection or something and Vader didn't have that with either in ANH hence nothing beyond sensing Luke's tingling midi-chlorians.
However we'll have to agree to disagree on whether "he took it upon himself to honour Qui Gon" is the same thing as taking it upon himself to train Anakin...
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 18, 2020 19:18:30 GMT
Well, every sequel changes things or even builds off of what happened before. A lot of the times it could just be something we thought we saw that really didn't happen. But it was just them changing what happened in a previous movie to bring someone back or create drama for the hero. The problem with having a sequel trilogy is that it came out decades after people have the OT set in stone. Building off of a story isn't necessarily a retcon. 'Retcon' is a shortened way of saying 'retroactive continuity'. It's a literary device of revising what was previously established to make the new narrative fit. In doing so, the previous facts are often contradicted or ignored. Simply writing a story about Han Solo as an older man isn't a retcon - it's just a continuation of his story. However, if someone wrote that Han was secretly a Jedi the entire time he had known Luke and Leia, that would be a retcon. It revises canon to make the new story fit. It's retroactive continuity. I'll give you another example. No one can touch a lightsaber blade without being wounded. Perhaps one day a writer will retcon it so that when the hero is disarmed in the final duel scene, and as the antagonist brings the blade down to strike the killing blow, the hero grabs onto the blade (similar to the end scene of Rob Roy) long enough to grab his/her lightsaber from the floor and run it through the antagonist (naturally defeating and mortally wounding the antagonist). The reasoning by the writer can be that "if you use enough of the Force, the blade can't hurt you!" Retcon. It isn't a problem for a writer worth his/her paycheck. If they can't handle it, don't take the job. Don't think I worded it correctly, but that's what I meant by building off of what happened before and saying what happened in the previous movie didn't happen the way you think. And you can totally say that Han was a Force user using moments throughout the OT. And catching the lightsaber blade. I mean...
You can do it without actually touching it.
And you can make the revision work perfectly in a new movie using the OT and the fans will still hate it. Because it changes what they have firmly parked in their minds what the OT is.
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 18, 2020 19:44:40 GMT
I was going to argue "logical fallacy!", but when it comes to Disney Star Wars, that's actually a pretty accurate statement. All they can do is retcon stuff because they can't make memorable stories of their own. They have to ride George Lucas' coattails. Well Lucas retconned his own work multiple times, he never had a clear vision of SW despite what he later claimed, like Luke and Leia being siblings is a retcon, Vader being their dad is a retcon, Obi-Wan being Qui Gon's Padawan is a retcon, Anakin being the chosen one is a retcon, and so on, Lucas was playing shit by ear and retconned shit all the time, he forgot key parts of the lore he set up in the OT when making the PT and had to force things in to explain it. It's not that the DT retconned stuff but that the DT rehashed the OT but with less skill or heart, as such rendering the OT narratively meaningless because nothing done or achieved in them outside of Han boning Leia means dick all of diddly, it's specifically the retconning to allow them to rehash shit ala ROS bringing back Palpatine that's the worst because it's not retconning something for a cool idea or a better pay off, like with Maul they retcon his death so he can play a pivotal role in Clone Wars then Rebel's, in ROS they retcon the impact of Vader "killing" Palpatine just to repeat it with Rey because they had no other idea due to the mishandling of the trilogy up until that point, but most specifically that blame should go to JJ, his SW films hell even one of his ST films are just blatant rehashes of prior canon with less nuance or merit, it's JJ swinging his dick going I can do it better, then doing it worse, much, much worse. Yes and no. In an older draft of Star Wars, Luke had twin brothers Biggs and Windy and an older brother. Leia was his cousin (daughter of Owen and Beru).
Oh and about bringing Palpatine back. That wasn't their idea.
TRoS, expecially, is based on these comics.
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Jan El Señor
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Post by Jan El Señor on Nov 18, 2020 23:07:40 GMT
TRoS, expecially, is based on these comics. Very loosely, pretty much only similar in the respect that they both include a cloned Palps returning. De-canonizing that plot was one of the only good things about Disney wiping out the old EU. Then they just recycle the same crap anyway.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Nov 23, 2020 1:43:01 GMT
How bout this: Darth Maul returns from the dead to kill everyone we've ever known in the entire SW universe, & we get to start with... wait for it... fresh new characters & locales.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Nov 23, 2020 9:10:33 GMT
How bout this: Darth Maul returns from the dead to kill everyone we've ever known in the entire SW universe, & we get to start with... wait for it... fresh new characters & locales. Only if he impales and cuts himself after. None of this horizontal cutting down the middle like in Episode 1 either! He better cut himself vertically from head to robotic toe, so he's split in half...maybe do it a few run throughs with a lightsaber just to make sure there's no way he can be brought back again. Then credits.
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Post by ThatGuy on Nov 24, 2020 0:08:30 GMT
TRoS, expecially, is based on these comics. Very loosely, pretty much only similar in the respect that they both include a cloned Palps returning. De-canonizing that plot was one of the only good things about Disney wiping out the old EU. Then they just recycle the same crap anyway. Well, it's that comic and Legacy of the Force. As for Dark Empire, they basically just changed Luke to Kylo and Clone Palpatine to Snoke who's, well, a clone of Palps.
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