|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 18, 2020 2:53:19 GMT
What exactly is the difference between "angry, sadistic parents or other adults" and "satanists"? Where does one draw the line? This is exactly the question one might ask those who saw Satanic child abuse as widespread in a moral panic, but then failed utterly to follow through their claims when cases ever reached to court. However it might be noted that Satanism is usually associated with paraphernalia, together with a ritual structure and specific terminology, that mere angry parents lack. In fact many of the spurious claims made the most of such things, inaccurately and imaginatively served up, to define matters to suit preconceptions. I am sure, given your recent thread arguing in favour of Scotsmen, that you will be happy to argue that no true Satanist would be without them. I hope that helps. As I have shown, it is not I that is playing down matters, just those who took the time and trouble to investigate claims and outcomes carefully, including the two well-known studies I quoted. Of course feel free if you wish now to offer up examples of numerous successful prosecutions for SCA by way of demonstrating the constant moral peril we face. In the absence of this, the question ought to be why some are intent on still playing things up. And, inevitably, there will be an absence.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 18, 2020 17:15:49 GMT
What exactly is the difference between "angry, sadistic parents or other adults" and "satanists"? Where does one draw the line? This is exactly the question one might ask those who saw Satanic child abuse as widespread in a moral panic, but then failed utterly to follow through their claims when cases ever reached to court. However it might be noted that Satanism is usually associated with paraphernalia, together with a ritual structure and specific terminology, that mere angry parents lack. In fact many of the spurious claims made the most of such things, inaccurately and imaginatively served up, to define matters to suit preconceptions. I am sure, given your recent thread arguing in favour of Scotsmen, that you will be happy to argue that no true Satanist would be without them. I hope that helps. As I have shown, it is not I that is playing down matters, just those who took the time and trouble to investigate claims and outcomes carefully, including the two well-known studies I quoted. Of course feel free if you wish now to offer up examples of numerous successful prosecutions for SCA by way of demonstrating the constant moral peril we face. In the absence of this, the question ought to be why some are intent on still playing things up. And, inevitably, there will be an absence. On what experience do you base your assumption that satanism is widely recognizable by any paraphernalia? That is unless they cannot possibly be caught. Child abuse is a crime, satanism is not. Why do you ask me to substantiate satanism by court findings? The reason is that you think you know anything better than I do and believe you can help. As admirable as the effort is, I really have to ask you to please find something for which you have any talent.
|
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 18, 2020 19:12:16 GMT
On what experience do you base your assumption that satanism is widely recognizable by any paraphernalia? On the testimonies of at least some of those who claimed their abusers were neccessarily satanic. In many of the more lurid cases the details appear to be carried over from movies rather than genuine experience, where the iconography is instantly familiar. But don't take my word for it. Here for instance is the the description of supposed satanic ritual from a more credulous - and ultimately quite amusing - source Satanic Cult Awareness, Hirst and Marsh(1993) in which child abuse is a major concern. It is, supposedly, "a training manual ... the result of compiling information from several years of occult investigations including volumes of written documentations from several investigators across the nation." It is also a report which purports to show the facts of satanism, still without any examples of successful convictions, naturally. See also www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/walmart-selling-satanic-paraphernalia where there appears no doubt. In other cases paraphernalia is what people make of it. In one case in Orkney the 'satanic black gown' confiscated by over-zealous investigators turned out to be something a teacher would wear in class. Er ... perhaps because we are talking about supposed satanic child abuse, rather than just satanism? See how it works? It is ironic that you find it easy to deny the existence of heart transplants, say, for which evidence can easily be found, while still supporting the idea of satanic child abuse - for which substantiation has been discovered lacking in almost every case that comes to court. Ah well. The absence of any substantiation for the opposing view on your part is just as predicted in my last message. But since you are now resorting to telling me what I think, and moreover appear to have no knowledge of even some standard authorities, all the while providing none of your own, I will leave it there. For everyone else, one last link, to that of a more recent assessment of the scandal: Satanic Abuse, False Memories, Weird Beliefs and Moral Panics (Waterhouse, 2014) which has found quite wide dissemination and reputability:
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 18, 2020 22:47:51 GMT
FilmFlaneur said: [ full text here] < clips >
- ... the testimonies of at least some of those ... In many of the more lurid cases ... so this is merely an example
of how one group conducts itself. - we are talking about supposed satanic child abuse, rather than just satanism? See how it works?
- It is ironic that you find it easy to deny the existence of heart transplants, say, for which evidence can easily be found,
- The absence of any substantiation for the opposing view'
- So not only can you not explain why it makes any difference whether it is satanists or just people acting like satanists, you really cannot tell the difference anyway. Can you not yet see how there are probably better ways to spend your time?
- 1) You haven't properly identified who are "actual" satanists. 2) The courts need not bother.
- 1) I have never denied the existence of heart transplants. 2) You have never provided any evidence for any.
- See "A"
Remember what I said about putting things in your own words? It might be best if you take that a step further and only discuss things you have seen yourself. You are not getting a very good picture of things just from reading articles about them.
|
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 19, 2020 0:01:42 GMT
FilmFlaneur said: [ full text here] < clips >
- ... the testimonies of at least some of those ... In many of the more lurid cases ... so this is merely an example
of how one group conducts itself. - we are talking about supposed satanic child abuse, rather than just satanism? See how it works?
- It is ironic that you find it easy to deny the existence of heart transplants, say, for which evidence can easily be found,
- The absence of any substantiation for the opposing view'
- So not only can you not explain why it makes any difference whether it is satanists or just people acting like satanists, you really cannot tell the difference anyway. Can you not yet see how there are probably better ways to spend your time?
- 1) You haven't properly identified who are "actual" satanists. 2) The courts need not bother.
So then; one last word to answer the usual non-sequiturs. It is not I who needs to distinguish between 'real' and 'pretend' satanists, since, duh, it is not I who claims for satanic abusers in the first place (indeed I made it clear that there might have been a few cases of nutters abusing children with satanic trappings, while the sad fact is that more children have likely been ill-treated by Christians through injurious 'exorcisms'). It for is the prosecuting authorities, who did indeed 'bother', often to the extent of ruining innocent people's lives by giving credence to false claims. The issue is, still, whether there have been proven examples of SCA brought before the courts ending in convictions, especially of a size and number reflecting the associated moral panic.
The answer as I have shown is ... NO - and you haven't evidenced otherwise, as usual. Which ultimately is all one needs to know. QED.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 19, 2020 8:40:33 GMT
FilmFlaneur said: [ full text here] - So not only can you not explain why it makes any difference whether it is satanists or just people acting like satanists, you really cannot tell the difference anyway. Can you not yet see how there are probably better ways to spend your time?
- 1) You haven't properly identified who are "actual" satanists. 2) The courts need not bother.
So then; one last word to answer the usual non-sequiturs. It is not I who needs to distinguish between 'real' and 'pretend' satanists, since, duh, it is not I who claims for satanic abusers in the first place (indeed I made it clear that there might have been a few cases of nutters abusing children with satanic trappings, while the sad fact is that more children have likely been ill-treated by Christians through injurious 'exorcisms'). It for is the prosecuting authorities, who did indeed 'bother', often to the extent of ruining innocent people's lives by giving credence to false claims. The issue is, still, whether there have been proven examples of SCA brought before the courts ending in convictions, especially of a size and number reflecting the associated moral panic.
The answer as I have shown is ... NO - and you haven't evidenced otherwise, as usual. Which ultimately is all one needs to know. QED. While you are indeed not following what is going on in the world, I am certain it is not my fault. I have explained that quite many Christians have more in common with atheists than any "other" religion with plentiful data from Pew Research surveys. You might recognize the expression, "two sides of the same bad coin." It also is likely true that a few of them have much in common with satanists. Although such things typically happen in poverty they do infect a few people with much monetary wealth. You are still asking me to "prove" something that is merely a matter of definitions. That is because you have aligned yourself with mentally retarded people. If you complain as usual that I shouldn't point that out, just notice that if you believe you needn't heed any warnings then that is probably how you got to be so stupid. Consider heeding a warning sometime. Sometimes they can help.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 19, 2020 15:46:17 GMT
So then; one last word to answer the usual non-sequiturs. It is not I who needs to distinguish between 'real' and 'pretend' satanists, since, duh, it is not I who claims for satanic abusers in the first place (indeed I made it clear that there might have been a few cases of nutters abusing children with satanic trappings, while the sad fact is that more children have likely been ill-treated by Christians through injurious 'exorcisms'). It for is the prosecuting authorities, who did indeed 'bother', often to the extent of ruining innocent people's lives by giving credence to false claims. The issue is, still, whether there have been proven examples of SCA brought before the courts ending in convictions, especially of a size and number reflecting the associated moral panic.
The answer as I have shown is ... NO - and you haven't evidenced otherwise, as usual. Which ultimately is all one needs to know. QED. While you are indeed not following what is going on in the world, I am certain it is not my fault. I have explained that quite many Christians have more in common with atheists than any "other" religion with plentiful data from Pew Research surveys. You might recognize the expression, "two sides of the same bad coin." It also is likely true that a few of them have much in common with satanists. Although such things typically happen in poverty they do infect a few people with much monetary wealth. You are still asking me to "prove" something that is merely a matter of definitions. That is because you have aligned yourself with mentally retarded people. If you complain as usual that I shouldn't point that out, just notice that if you believe you needn't heed any warnings then that is probably how you got to be so stupid. Consider heeding a warning sometime. Sometimes they can help. No one is arguing about the idea of Satanists, it’s that there’s no proof there is any widespread Satanism going on and certainly zero proof that Satan himself is involved. You make it sound like even Christians who don’t take Satan seriously enough are becoming de facto Satanists. Therefore, do you think one can “conjure the living Devil” like in Rosemary’s Baby? Yes or no.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 19, 2020 22:29:28 GMT
While you are indeed not following what is going on in the world, I am certain it is not my fault. I have explained that quite many Christians have more in common with atheists than any "other" religion with plentiful data from Pew Research surveys. You might recognize the expression, "two sides of the same bad coin." It also is likely true that a few of them have much in common with satanists. Although such things typically happen in poverty they do infect a few people with much monetary wealth. You are still asking me to "prove" something that is merely a matter of definitions. That is because you have aligned yourself with mentally retarded people. If you complain as usual that I shouldn't point that out, just notice that if you believe you needn't heed any warnings then that is probably how you got to be so stupid. Consider heeding a warning sometime. Sometimes they can help. No one is arguing about the idea of Satanists, it’s that there’s no proof there is any widespread Satanism going on and certainly zero proof that Satan himself is involved. You make it sound like even Christians who don’t take Satan seriously enough are becoming de facto Satanists. Therefore, do you think one can “conjure the living Devil” like in Rosemary’s Baby? Yes or no. It doesn't matter whether Satan is "for real." "Satanists" can be just as evil either way. I don't see the point of trying to "define" satanism. So one group isn't "really" satanic because they used acrylics paints instead of the official pig's blood or whatever to write their symbols?
|
|
|
|
Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 19, 2020 22:35:06 GMT
No one is arguing about the idea of Satanists, it’s that there’s no proof there is any widespread Satanism going on and certainly zero proof that Satan himself is involved. You make it sound like even Christians who don’t take Satan seriously enough are becoming de facto Satanists. Therefore, do you think one can “conjure the living Devil” like in Rosemary’s Baby? Yes or no. It doesn't matter whether Satan is "for real." "Satanists" can be just as evil either way. I don't see the point of trying to "define" satanism. So one group isn't "really" satanic because they used acrylics paints instead of the official pig's blood or whatever to write their symbols? The percentage of Satanically evil people among just plain evil people in spite of claiming to be Good Christians is like 99.99%. Quite frankly, you’re perpetuating evil just by supporting Trump knowing how evil the man behaves. Ill add that folks who knowing support Trump despite the evil he perpetuates are practicing a form of satanism because they are listen to him as if is the voice of God himself. That’s the Satanism, the one inside your heart, you need to defeat. Not some fantasy.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 19, 2020 23:07:26 GMT
It doesn't matter whether Satan is "for real." "Satanists" can be just as evil either way. I don't see the point of trying to "define" satanism. So one group isn't "really" satanic because they used acrylics paints instead of the official pig's blood or whatever to write their symbols? The percentage of Satanically evil people among just plain evil people in spite of claiming to be Good Christians is like 99.99%. Quite frankly, you’re perpetuating evil just by supporting Trump knowing how evil the man behaves. Ill add that folks who knowing support Trump despite the evil he perpetuates are practicing a form of satanism because they are listen to him as if is the voice of God himself. That’s the Satanism, the one inside your heart, you need to defeat. Not some fantasy. It might not always be obvious, but there is a very big difference between "evil" and "stupid." I believe there is evil in the world however rarely. Stupidity is all over the place.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 19, 2020 23:10:49 GMT
The percentage of Satanically evil people among just plain evil people in spite of claiming to be Good Christians is like 99.99%. Quite frankly, you’re perpetuating evil just by supporting Trump knowing how evil the man behaves. Ill add that folks who knowing support Trump despite the evil he perpetuates are practicing a form of satanism because they are listen to him as if is the voice of God himself. That’s the Satanism, the one inside your heart, you need to defeat. Not some fantasy. It might not always be obvious, but there is a very big difference between "evil" and "stupid." I believe there is evil in the world however rarely. Stupidity is all over the place. Actually there is little difference between stupid and evil if the results are the same.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 19, 2020 23:19:06 GMT
It might not always be obvious, but there is a very big difference between "evil" and "stupid." I believe there is evil in the world however rarely. Stupidity is all over the place. Actually there is little difference between stupid and evil if the results are the same. But the results are not the same.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 19, 2020 23:23:33 GMT
Actually there is little difference between stupid and evil if the results are the same. But the results are not the same. In the case of the monumental stupidity that has gripped and is controlling our nation right now, it is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 19, 2020 23:42:57 GMT
But the results are not the same. In the case of the monumental stupidity that has gripped and is controlling our nation right now, it is. You realize not everything you see on TV is real, right? Yes, there is evil, but no, not as much as it appears on TV. Even the police brutality is not intentionally evil. They believe (poor souls that they are) they're doing their civic duty. Evil would be wantonly killing anyone. Okay the guy, James Fields, who drove a car into a crowd in Charlottesville might be evil. I see no excuse for that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 19, 2020 23:52:54 GMT
In the case of the monumental stupidity that has gripped and is controlling our nation right now, it is. You realize not everything you see on TV is real, right? Yes, there is evil, but no, not as much as it appears on TV. Even the police brutality is not intentionally evil. They believe (poor souls that they are) they're doing their civic duty. Evil would be wantonly killing anyone. Okay the guy, James Fields, who drove a car into a crowd in Charlottesville might be evil. I see no excuse for that. I don’t watch much TV, but so far 250,000 people are dead because of the “stupidity” of one man and the 70+ million people stupid enough to believe every word he says. He is currently denying the magnitude of the disease and it’s ramifications and his is politicizing it for his own personal gain. The first part is stupid and the second part is pure evil. You are correct that there is more stupidity than evil in the world and you are happily participating in the stupid part.
|
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Nov 20, 2020 1:19:32 GMT
After giving it some thought I think that is unfair.
There are many religious people and many non-religious people who are equally messed up and many religious people and many non-religious people that aren't messed up.
Serial killers may or may not be religious, but it is unlikely that religion has anything to do with them being serial killers. Hitler used religion in a way to promote his agenda, but his reasons weren't necessarily tied to religion.
Most active pedophiles likely aren't molesting and raping children do to religious beliefs, they do it because they have a sexual urge towards children or are just pathetic people that need to use manipulation on young people to get sex. I think that in many cases religious ideas cause people to do horrible things, but I think there are equally as many cases where religious people use their power position to get away with horrible behaviors that they would do even if they weren't religious.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 20, 2020 8:38:33 GMT
You realize not everything you see on TV is real, right? Yes, there is evil, but no, not as much as it appears on TV. Even the police brutality is not intentionally evil. They believe (poor souls that they are) they're doing their civic duty. Evil would be wantonly killing anyone. Okay the guy, James Fields, who drove a car into a crowd in Charlottesville might be evil. I see no excuse for that. I don’t watch much TV, but so far 250,000 people are dead because of the “stupidity” of one man and the 70+ million people stupid enough to believe every word he says. He is currently denying the magnitude of the disease and it’s ramifications and his is politicizing it for his own personal gain. The first part is stupid and the second part is pure evil. You are correct that there is more stupidity than evil in the world and you are happily participating in the stupid part. There is something very peculiar about the pandemic I think even you can understand. The number of asymptomatic cases is incredibly large and the number of deaths is nevertheless incredibly high. It's almost like there are two different diseases, covid-19 and a covid-18 that tests the same despite being entirely different. That could be misleading otherwise intelligent people to disbelieve the reports. I really don't see anyone throwing caution to the wind (no pun intended), especially religious people. We are cautious in the light of reported deaths regardless how peculiar they are. I suppose there could be a disease that kills some people and not others and I follow official guidelines. Don't forget that Democrats are famous for their utter stupidity. Theirs is not "science," it is a belief in "science" they see on TV. The topic of heart transplants returns here often because some people think I said there are no such things. I never said that. What I said is that I have never seen the evidence of one myself. The hospital where my nephew the real doctor works does not perform heart transplants. With any invasive procedure there are risks to be balanced against the possible benefits. You can see that cutting out a working heart involves rather enormous risk. I'm sure you're far more clever than you need to be to understand that much.
|
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 20, 2020 13:02:45 GMT
Don't forget that Democrats are famous for their utter stupidity. Theirs is not "science," it is a belief in "science" they see on TV. Since, obviously, no true science appears on TV. An odd thing to say, since last time this came I up I showed Arlon numerous images showing heart transplant surgery. Why anyone would want to fake these, or the accounts of such surgery which have appeared over decades, if that is what is then claimed, is something only Arlon can explain.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 20, 2020 13:37:12 GMT
Don't forget that Democrats are famous for their utter stupidity. Theirs is not "science," it is a belief in "science" they see on TV. Since, obviously, no true science appears on TV. An odd thing to say, since last time this came I up I showed Arlon numerous images showing heart transplant surgery. Why anyone would want to fake these, or the accounts of such surgery which have appeared over decades, if that is what is then claimed, is something only Arlon can explain. Pictures of miracles -- no, pictures of "scientific" heart transplants -- yes, right? Have you tried playing the sitar?
|
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Nov 20, 2020 13:40:00 GMT
Since, obviously, no true science appears on TV. An odd thing to say, since last time this came I up I showed Arlon numerous images showing heart transplant surgery. Why anyone would want to fake these, or the accounts of such surgery which have appeared over decades, if that is what is then claimed, is something only Arlon can explain. Pictures of miracles -- no, pictures of "scientific" heart transplants -- yes, right? Pictures of "miracles" yes --- years of testimony and images of a surgical procedure -- no, right?
|
|