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Post by mikef6 on Nov 18, 2020 2:06:04 GMT
Last year, 18-year-old Maison Hullibarger took his own life. His grieving parents, Jeff and Linda, hoped that a local Catholic priest would be able to offer words of solace during Maison’s funeral.
Instead of doing that, Rev. Don LaCuesta made everything worse. Besides saying the word “suicide” six separate times — even though the family never told him the reason Maison had died — LaCuesta said that the method of his death could block him from getting into Heaven.
There is some language in the Catholic doctrine of suicide meant to offer leeway to people dealing with mental health issues or suffering that’s out of their control. But using someone’s funeral to chastise his placement in the afterlife was a uniquely despicable thing to do.
The father, Jeff Hullibarger, said, “He was up there condemning our son, pretty much calling him a sinner. He wondered if he had repented enough to make it to heaven…There were actually a couple of younger boys who were Maison’s age who left the church sobbing.”
The Archdiocese of Detroit almost immediately announced that LaCuesta would no longer be performing at funerals and that his sermons would be reviewed by another Church leader. The Hullibargers also vowed never to set foot back in the Church. All of that occurred a year ago. Now they’re taking their concerns to another level. This week, the Charles E. Boyk Law Offices, LLC filed a lawsuit on behalf of mother Linda Hullibarger. She’s suing LaCuesta, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel Parish, and the Archdiocese of Detroit for roughly $25,000 (plus punitive damages and attorneys’ fees) for the trauma they’ve put her through. The suit said, in part
I’m not sure if the suit has any legal merit, but the question is a valid one: Can you sue a Church for the psychological harm it causes? A mere slap on the wrist to the priest in question doesn’t resolve the problem. The Church will never correct its mistakes — or modify its own supposedly inflexible dogma — unless there’s serious pressure from the outside. This lawsuit is one way to put that pressure where it belongs.
I say.
Make ‘em pay.
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Post by Isapop on Nov 18, 2020 3:11:04 GMT
Winning such a lawsuit is hard because you have to prove the infliction of psychological harm was intentional.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 18, 2020 4:29:10 GMT
No. At least not in a case like this. Unless it’s a “you know what” matter.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 18, 2020 4:34:07 GMT
Winning such a lawsuit is hard because you have to prove the infliction of psychological harm was intentional. It’s a waste of time and will only stir up the butthurt, “religiously oppressed” Catholics...and witch-hunters too. By the way, the type of insulting stunt that “man of god” pulled is condemned by 95% of the Church.
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Post by moviemouth on Nov 18, 2020 6:23:48 GMT
There isn't enough information here to determine anything.
I am not a lawyer obviously, but I this doesn't sound like a case that will or should even go to court.
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Post by moviemouth on Nov 18, 2020 6:32:43 GMT
Winning such a lawsuit is hard because you have to prove the infliction of psychological harm was intentional. It’s a waste of time and will only stir up the butthurt, “religiously oppressed” Catholics...and witch-hunters too. By the way, the type of insulting stunt that “man of god” pulled is condemned by 95% of the Church. I hate to say this, but I don't think the church should be sued for the actions of one man. Thing is, while this isn't the way any priest should act, it is commonly believed that suicide is a sin that will land you in Hell. The Bible's position on this is hazy at best.
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Post by Toasted Cheese on Nov 18, 2020 9:13:55 GMT
Since one cannot prove heaven, there is no case to prove that the deceased is or isn't going to the holy place in the sky and since it was a Catholic funeral, the parents would have also been indoctrinated into Catholic belief and sermon. Also, why did the kid kill himself? It would have to be proven that the CC caused the psychological harm upon the young man and same with the parents. Not enough information here. Sounds like the mother is suffering classic Catholic guilt too.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Nov 18, 2020 13:22:14 GMT
... Instead of doing that, Rev. Don LaCuesta made everything worse. Besides saying the word “suicide” six separate times — even though the family never told him the reason Maison had died — LaCuesta said that the method of his death could block him from getting into Heaven. .... Religion isn't about belief; it's about power and the desire to control the actions of others.
I don't believe suicide is mentioned in the Bible. Where is the reverend's evidence that Maison will not be welcomed at the pearly gates?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 18, 2020 16:06:54 GMT
If the priest is following the rules of his religion, then not seeing why that would be wrong as much as it could mean ignorance on the part of the parishioners.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 19, 2020 15:30:43 GMT
If the priest is following the rules of his religion, then not seeing why that would be wrong as much as it could mean ignorance on the part of the parishioners. Because no one knows what the state of mind the dead person might have been experiencing that drove him to kill himself. The reason suicide has always been considered an unredeemable sin is it’s self-murder without forgiveness from God. Most other Christian churches reject this, because how does anyone know what is in the mind of God also. Whatever the priest thought he was doing, he certainly wasn’t ministering the needs of the grieving family. And the people who came to mourn the dead, not get a lecture on church doctrine. What American adult not know way to much about suicide? However, this priest is an aberration, thankfully.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 19, 2020 15:58:04 GMT
If the priest is following the rules of his religion, then not seeing why that would be wrong as much as it could mean ignorance on the part of the parishioners. Because no one knows what the state of mind the dead person might have been experiencing that drove him to kill himself. The reason suicide has always been considered an unredeemable sin is it’s self-murder without forgiveness from God. Most other Christian churches reject this, because how does anyone know what is in the mind of God also. Whatever the priest thought he was doing, he certainly wasn’t ministering the needs of the grieving family. And the people who came to mourn the dead, not get a lecture on church doctrine. What American adult not know way to much about suicide? However, this priest is an aberration, thankfully. That is not what the religion routinely addresses. The parents are merely upset with their religion's teachings which is not the priest or religion's fault. It's not their job or responsibility to change with the times, but rather the responsibility of the parents to leave it if they disagree with it. It's not like it was a secret. Even non-Catholics apparently know their views. The Catholic Church could very well factor in the reason for suicide as well. The OP said the priest said suicide could block the dude from entering heaven which is entirely a possibility. But not knowing his mind, why would they guarantee heaven? I find it somewhat disingenuous that religious funerals always have to ensure a silver lining. It's certainly best not to raise the negative as this priest did (I'm assuming he's old school and in his 80's or something) but it would have been just as bad for the priest to say that kid is at the pearly gates.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 19, 2020 16:01:14 GMT
Because no one knows what the state of mind the dead person might have been experiencing that drove him to kill himself. The reason suicide has always been considered an unredeemable sin is it’s self-murder without forgiveness from God. Most other Christian churches reject this, because how does anyone know what is in the mind of God also. Whatever the priest thought he was doing, he certainly wasn’t ministering the needs of the grieving family. And the people who came to mourn the dead, not get a lecture on church doctrine. What American adult not know way to much about suicide? However, this priest is an aberration, thankfully. That is not what the religion routinely addresses. The parents are merely upset with their religion's teachings which is not the priest or religion's fault. It's not their job or responsibility to change with the times, but rather the responsibility of the parents to leave it if they disagree with it. It's not like it was a secret. Even non-Catholics apparently know their views. The Catholic Church could very well factor in the reason for suicide as well. The OP said the priest said suicide could block the dude from entering heaven which is entirely a possibility. But not knowing his mind, why would they guarantee heaven? I find it somewhat disingenuous that religious funerals always have to ensure a silver lining. It's certainly best not to raise the negative as this priest did (I'm assuming he's old school and in his 80's or something) but it would have been just as bad for the priest to say that kid is at the pearly gates. . Really? You’re okay with this?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 19, 2020 16:15:11 GMT
That is not what the religion routinely addresses. The parents are merely upset with their religion's teachings which is not the priest or religion's fault. It's not their job or responsibility to change with the times, but rather the responsibility of the parents to leave it if they disagree with it. It's not like it was a secret. Even non-Catholics apparently know their views. The Catholic Church could very well factor in the reason for suicide as well. The OP said the priest said suicide could block the dude from entering heaven which is entirely a possibility. But not knowing his mind, why would they guarantee heaven? I find it somewhat disingenuous that religious funerals always have to ensure a silver lining. It's certainly best not to raise the negative as this priest did (I'm assuming he's old school and in his 80's or something) but it would have been just as bad for the priest to say that kid is at the pearly gates. . Really? You’re okay with this? I never said I was ok with anything. After all, I'm willfully not a Catholic. However his suicide was clearly public knowledge and the priest is not mandated to say sweet nothings in the ears of grieving parents even if he should. I'm just saying that he shouldn't lie to them either. That's the issue, not my feelings on how the priest is a jerk. I concur it was a horrible service, but it is an allowed thing to say even if it's not the preferred thing to say.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 19, 2020 21:39:36 GMT
Besides saying the word “suicide” six separate times — even though the family never told him the reason Maison had died — LaCuesta said that the method of his death could block him from getting into Heaven. Really? You’re okay with this? I never said I was ok with anything. After all, I'm willfully not a Catholic. However his suicide was clearly public knowledge and the priest is not mandated to say sweet nothings in the ears of grieving parents even if he should. I'm just saying that he shouldn't lie to them either. That's the issue, not my feelings on how the priest is a jerk. I concur it was a horrible service, but it is an allowed thing to say even if it's not the preferred thing to say. You are correct about this consistence church doctrine. And aside from that, the priest has 1st Amendment right as an American to say anything he wants. However, Jesus said to love one another and to bury the dead. What I think happened here is a profound lack of love and compassion. At least the priest buried the kid because as a suicide he should have denied him a Christian burial in order to be true to church teaching. If the pastor wanted to warn the word about the danger of Hell that suicide is, he was too late for this kid. The parents did not tell him how their son died, so who broke the HIPAA laws? Maybe they did not want anyone to know.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Nov 22, 2020 17:45:23 GMT
I never said I was ok with anything. After all, I'm willfully not a Catholic. However his suicide was clearly public knowledge and the priest is not mandated to say sweet nothings in the ears of grieving parents even if he should. I'm just saying that he shouldn't lie to them either. That's the issue, not my feelings on how the priest is a jerk. I concur it was a horrible service, but it is an allowed thing to say even if it's not the preferred thing to say. You are correct about this consistence church doctrine. And aside from that, the priest has 1st Amendment right as an American to say anything he wants. However, Jesus said to love one another and to bury the dead. What I think happened here is a profound lack of love and compassion. At least the priest buried the kid because as a suicide he should have denied him a Christian burial in order to be true to church teaching. If the pastor wanted to warn the word about the danger of Hell that suicide is, he was too late for this kid. The parents did not tell him how their son died, so who broke the HIPAA laws? Maybe they did not want anyone to know. Public record would have revealed this. Anyone with a police scanner would have known it. This was not doctor/client privilege anyway as the parents were very vocal bout the manner of their son's death (They blame the coach who they kicked out of the service and who was later fired over it). They tried to dictate how the service would go and the priest refused and that's my point. They have NO authority to dictate what a priest says at a religious ceremony. They just don't and a lawsuit they win would show two things - The law has no regard for religious belief and it changes nothing about the next time it happens. My opinion is that if the church is so adamantly opposed to suicide they should have told the parents from the getgo that their son was doomed and refused the service and then made a sermon about it that Sunday (Maybe they get paid for this stuff. Idk.) They probably would have gotten sued for that too though because feelings being hurt routinely equates to distress. On the plus side, this is what the archdiocese said: sports.yahoo.com/bully-coach-shows-funeral-teen-player-committed-suicide-184706352.html
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 23, 2020 4:45:57 GMT
You are correct about this consistence church doctrine. And aside from that, the priest has 1st Amendment right as an American to say anything he wants. However, Jesus said to love one another and to bury the dead. What I think happened here is a profound lack of love and compassion. At least the priest buried the kid because as a suicide he should have denied him a Christian burial in order to be true to church teaching. If the pastor wanted to warn the word about the danger of Hell that suicide is, he was too late for this kid. The parents did not tell him how their son died, so who broke the HIPAA laws? Maybe they did not want anyone to know. Public record would have revealed this. Anyone with a police scanner would have known it. This was not doctor/client privilege anyway as the parents were very vocal bout the manner of their son's death (They blame the coach who they kicked out of the service and who was later fired over it). They tried to dictate how the service would go and the priest refused and that's my point. They have NO authority to dictate what a priest says at a religious ceremony. They just don't and a lawsuit they win would show two things - The law has no regard for religious belief and it changes nothing about the next time it happens. My opinion is that if the church is so adamantly opposed to suicide they should have told the parents from the getgo that their son was doomed and refused the service and then made a sermon about it that Sunday (Maybe they get paid for this stuff. Idk.) They probably would have gotten sued for that too though because feelings being hurt routinely equates to distress. On the plus side, this is what the archdiocese said: sports.yahoo.com/bully-coach-shows-funeral-teen-player-committed-suicide-184706352.html So fuck all the love and compassion stuff, Jesus’ Great Commandment? Yep.
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Post by drystyx on Nov 23, 2020 9:18:03 GMT
Winning such a lawsuit is hard because you have to prove the infliction of psychological harm was intentional. Saying it could block him from getting to Heaven is something I would call "intentional" if I'm on a jury. And the 25,000 is quite reasonable.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Nov 23, 2020 18:24:21 GMT
Winning such a lawsuit is hard because you have to prove the infliction of psychological harm was intentional. Saying it could block him from getting to Heaven is something I would call "intentional" if I'm on a jury. And the 25,000 is quite reasonable. But then the entire teaching of the Catholic Church could be described as intentional psychological harm. I feel sorry the family who needed the Church at that moment for support and comfort but failed miserably to be that place for them, but they can’t get any money over this and shouldn’t. There should a caveat above every church door: enter at your own risk.
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Post by drystyx on Nov 23, 2020 19:12:51 GMT
Saying it could block him from getting to Heaven is something I would call "intentional" if I'm on a jury. And the 25,000 is quite reasonable. But then the entire teaching of the Catholic Church could be described as intentional psychological harm. I feel sorry the family who needed the Church at that moment for support and comfort but failed miserably to be that place for them, but they can’t get any money over this and shouldn’t. There should a caveat above every church door: enter at your own risk. No. The church is there to serve people. That's why a church is tax exempt. The church, any church, is to serve any person who seeks help. This church violated that contract, by making a steward out of a man who violated the contract, whether or not the church was behind his actions, doesn't matter, he was their "steward" pick, and he violated the moral of any "church" by hurting people instead of helping them.
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