|
Post by Admin on Dec 14, 2020 13:21:54 GMT
I did not know that eating ice cream too fast hurts. Then I ate ice cream too fast and it hurt. Now I know that eating ice cream too fast hurts and I will never intentionally do it again. So it's both knowledge and memory recollection, which is beneficial.Perhaps you shouldn't have been such a guts admin. If it is is both, then it won't be either, because that is just ego mind separation and even the notion of wanting to only be seen as knowledgeable. You can relay information that you have accumulated to beneficial use for interacting in life and with others, but what has your newfound insight into any consequence of eating your ice-cream to fast got to do with the knowledge this God things possesses?
You said there will always be something else to know, which renders us forever non-omniscient. The presumed omniscience of God (however he's otherwise defined) seems to be the crux of this conversation, but maybe you know something I don't...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 14, 2020 13:56:26 GMT
You said there will always be something else to know, which renders us forever non-omniscient. The presumed omniscience of God (however he's otherwise defined) seems to be the crux of this conversation, but maybe you know something I don't... Yes, but you have taken it out of context by inferring that it is necessary for something else to know, beyond what someone/anyone may think they already know. And knowing for whom, because one can only work on their own perception of what they see as knowing, to find ones way into unknowing. One can argue all they want for their own pride of amassing knowledge and limiting themselves to what brain power they have to bolster their ego, and I'd hate to rain on ones parade, but this is the way it is.
Concerning God, its knowing can't be anything but presumption and conjecture. Unless this God thing is proven, one could never know whatever omniscience it contains, which again makes no sense of knowing, because already mentioned, the only way into knowledge will always lead to out of knowledge. Besides, if we knew what we wanted to know, we may not even like the answers. Use your knowledge wisely admin, because even a little bit can at times even become an extremely dangerous thing.
That is indeed presumed for the sake of this discussion. I've said that a few times already. It's even in right there in the title of this thread, Cheese. I say omniscience would be the death of us all. You say even a little bit of knowledge can be deadly at times. Is there a disagreement here? I thought I smelled one, but I can't see it.
|
|
|
Post by SciFive on Dec 14, 2020 14:15:33 GMT
AdminDid you ever see the movie “Paycheck”? Ben Affleck’s character helped to build a device that sees into the future and then tries to destroy it when he sees in the device than mankind will destroy itself because of the device. “When you know your future, you stop having one.” Interesting ideas. Movie bombed but I liked it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2020 23:39:52 GMT
What exactly is meant by day? An Earth day is 24 hours. A day on the moon is about 14 Earth days, On Mercury & Venus, their years are longer than their days. Each planet has a different length of day. How do we know that when God woke up this "morning", the first dinosaurs were wandering around? In this case, the first three days couldn't possibly have been 24-hour Earth days because there was no sun.Furthermore: "a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past" (Psalm 90:4) and "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8) Not to mention that if God created time itself, then he existed before time and therefore is not subject to it (or at least wasn't). Thanks for your post. True, and the Earth has been slowing down its rotation as well. In a Billion years, ther might be a 26 hour day on Earth.
|
|
|
Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Dec 14, 2020 23:59:30 GMT
Knowing everything doesn't necessarily make you intelligent. The internet knows far more than any human being but is as dumb as a box of rocks. Knowledge does not equal intelligence. Does "knowing everything" not include knowing how to be knowledgeable, intelligent, wise, and dumb as a box of rocks? You're ascribing limits to something that is presumed to be unlimited for the purpose of the argument. No - knowing something is very different to intelligence. Knowledge is knowing facts, information, things that are happening, how to speak a foreign language, etc. Intelligence is being able to interpret the knowledge/information you have and use it to make decisions/plans/whatever. You can teach people more knowledge. You can't teach people intelligence - they either have it or they don't have it. For example - there are some religious "schools" where they force kids to memorise their religion's holy book cover to cover. They will spend years drilling that knowledge into them so until they can eventually recite it parrot like. Are the kids taught what any of it means? No. Quite often it's not even in their native language. But they have the knowledge of that religious text. Even though they don't understand it. An omniscient God could know everything that's going on, but understand very little of it. Or he could just be plain stupid. People assume that because he is omnipotent and according to the Bible fairly petty and petulant someone we should fear/worship that so they're going to err on the side of caution and say he's doing it all deliberately. But he could just be like a toddler throwing his toys around not really knowing what he's doing. Makes about as much sense.
|
|
|
Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Dec 15, 2020 0:05:16 GMT
I did not know that eating ice cream too fast hurts. Then I ate ice cream too fast and it hurt. Now I know that eating ice cream too fast hurts and I will never intentionally do it again. So it's both knowledge and memory recollection, which is beneficial.Perhaps you shouldn't have been such a guts admin.
If it is is both, then it won't be either, because that is just ego mind separation and even the notion of wanting to only be seen as knowledgeable. You can relay information that you have accumulated to beneficial use for interacting in life and with others, but what has your newfound insight into any consequence of eating your ice-cream to fast got to do with the knowledge this God things possesses?
Actually that's intelligence. That's the bit where you've taken the knowledge that when you did something (eating cold things too quickly) something else unpleasant happens (it hurts) so you decide not to do it again. We sometimes call that "learning from experience" or "learning from our mistakes". But when we see people repeatedly do dumb things over and over again - we often come to the conclusion that they're not very bright/a bit stupid/not very intelligent. (are you seeing a pattern here yet?). They've had exactly the same knowledge as the more intelligent people, they're just failing to apply it. So the difference isn't the knowledge, it's the intelligence.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2020 1:15:32 GMT
That is indeed presumed for the sake of this discussion. I've said that a few times already. It's even in right there in the title of this thread, Cheese. I say omniscience would be the death of us all. You say even a little bit of knowledge can be deadly at times. Is there a disagreement here? I thought I smelled one, but I can't see it. Anything is potentially deadly. Getting out of bed may be the death of you someday. And it ain’t the knowledge that can kill, it’s what’s done with it. It takes intelligent, thoughtful adults to use it wisely. Certainly the atomic bomb is the pinnacle of our current science knowledge that can destroy us all, but did humans have choice in discovering it? Would we be worthy of being intelligent creatures if we didn’t keep expanding our knowledge? Who knows what’s right around curve. And discovering is different than using. Humans have fucked nuclear power up, but we’ve greatly benefited from harnessing and exploring the atom as well. So, I don’t bury my head, I try to make myself as aware of this universe (my immediate surroundings) as possible. I was talking about us a species. If we know everything, what is our motivation for tomorrow?
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2020 1:16:20 GMT
Does "knowing everything" not include knowing how to be knowledgeable, intelligent, wise, and dumb as a box of rocks? You're ascribing limits to something that is presumed to be unlimited for the purpose of the argument. No - knowing something is very different to intelligence. Knowledge is knowing facts, information, things that are happening, how to speak a foreign language, etc. Intelligence is being able to interpret the knowledge/information you have and use it to make decisions/plans/whatever. You can teach people more knowledge. You can't teach people intelligence - they either have it or they don't have it. For example - there are some religious "schools" where they force kids to memorise their religion's holy book cover to cover. They will spend years drilling that knowledge into them so until they can eventually recite it parrot like. Are the kids taught what any of it means? No. Quite often it's not even in their native language. But they have the knowledge of that religious text. Even though they don't understand it. An omniscient God could know everything that's going on, but understand very little of it. Or he could just be plain stupid. People assume that because he is omnipotent and according to the Bible fairly petty and petulant someone we should fear/worship that so they're going to err on the side of caution and say he's doing it all deliberately. But he could just be like a toddler throwing his toys around not really knowing what he's doing. Makes about as much sense. If God can do anything, then the answer to any question that begins with "Can God...?" is yes.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2020 1:35:23 GMT
I was talking about us a species. If we know everything, what is our motivation for tomorrow? How far has knowing nothing gotten you? There will always be more to know...even when the experts think they have figured it all out, it’s bites them the ass: the parochial meaning behind the ouroboros emblem. I'm not going to argue over the meaning of the word "if". Thanks for the chat.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2020 1:47:57 GMT
I'm not going to argue over the meaning of the word "if". Thanks for the chat. “If” is a conditional. As a noun: an assumption, given, hypothetical, postulate, premise, presumption, presupposition, supposition. Back in the 19th century, the men with long beards said they had discovered all the known elements of the universe, and, sigh, there was nothing left to do but arrange them into categories. Then the 20th century happened. When you respond with "there will always be more to know," I can't help but think you dismissed the assumption, given, hypothetical, postulate, premise, presumption, presupposition, and/or supposition of: "If we know everything..." Spinning wheels. Thanks again.
|
|
|
Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Dec 15, 2020 8:34:00 GMT
No - knowing something is very different to intelligence. Knowledge is knowing facts, information, things that are happening, how to speak a foreign language, etc. Intelligence is being able to interpret the knowledge/information you have and use it to make decisions/plans/whatever. You can teach people more knowledge. You can't teach people intelligence - they either have it or they don't have it. For example - there are some religious "schools" where they force kids to memorise their religion's holy book cover to cover. They will spend years drilling that knowledge into them so until they can eventually recite it parrot like. Are the kids taught what any of it means? No. Quite often it's not even in their native language. But they have the knowledge of that religious text. Even though they don't understand it. An omniscient God could know everything that's going on, but understand very little of it. Or he could just be plain stupid. People assume that because he is omnipotent and according to the Bible fairly petty and petulant someone we should fear/worship that so they're going to err on the side of caution and say he's doing it all deliberately. But he could just be like a toddler throwing his toys around not really knowing what he's doing. Makes about as much sense. If God can do anything, then the answer to any question that begins with "Can God...?" is yes. That's avoiding dealing with the underlying question of whether or not God is intelligent or not. Having the power to do something doesn't automatically mean you have the intelligence (or morality!) to do the right/best thing. In the Christian mythology they frequently go on about how powerful God is - they never go on about how clever he is. Might does not automatically mean right.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2020 8:57:00 GMT
If God can do anything, then the answer to any question that begins with "Can God...?" is yes. That's avoiding dealing with the underlying question of whether or not God is intelligent or not. Having the power to do something doesn't automatically mean you have the intelligence (or morality!) to do the right/best thing. In the Christian mythology they frequently go on about how powerful God is - they never go on about how clever he is. Might does not automatically mean right. We're talking about omniscience, which literally means infinite knowledge (and wisdom, if that helps). A being with such a power would surely know how to have the intelligence (or morality!) to do the right/best thing. If not, then his knowledge is not unlimited.
|
|
|
Post by SciFive on Dec 15, 2020 11:21:04 GMT
That's avoiding dealing with the underlying question of whether or not God is intelligent or not. Having the power to do something doesn't automatically mean you have the intelligence (or morality!) to do the right/best thing. In the Christian mythology they frequently go on about how powerful God is - they never go on about how clever he is. Might does not automatically mean right. We're talking about omniscience, which literally means infinite knowledge (and wisdom, if that helps). A being with such a power would surely know how to have the intelligence (or morality!) to do the right/best thing. If not, then his knowledge is not unlimited. This God is known as the God of Ethical Monotheism. Doing the right thing is the point. This other guy’s idea of using a finite human attribute to judge an infinite non-human being is crazy.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2020 20:34:10 GMT
When you respond with "there will always be more to know," I can't help but think you dismissed the assumption, given, hypothetical, postulate, premise, presumption, presupposition, and/or supposition of: "If we know everything..." Spinning wheels. Thanks again. Please specifically point out what it is I’ve missed. I just did. Consider: Bob: If time travel was possible, what would do you? Jim: Time travel is not possible. Bob specifically points out that Jim dismissed the assumption, given, hypothetical, postulate, premise, presumption, presupposition, and/or supposition of: "If time travel was possible..." Then Jim responds by asking Bob to specifically point out what he missed. Bob sighs, throws in his hands in the air and walks away. We're talking about omniscience, which literally means infinite knowledge (and wisdom, if that helps). A being with such a power would surely know how to have the intelligence (or morality!) to do the right/best thing. If not, then his knowledge is not unlimited. You’re assuming that such a being would care what the right thing is. Or that it has morality. Why would it need to be a something with a mind that has the same petty, limited attitude as we do? We live on a tiny speck at the edge of our galaxy. And there are as many galaxies in the universe as there are grains of sand in all of Earth’s deserts. If God can think infinite thoughts, it possible he thinks thoughts we couldn’t possibly even imagine. As someone who is not omniscient, I'd say it's more than possible, but I wouldn't ascribe our petty, limited attitude to it.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2020 20:37:14 GMT
We're talking about omniscience, which literally means infinite knowledge (and wisdom, if that helps). A being with such a power would surely know how to have the intelligence (or morality!) to do the right/best thing. If not, then his knowledge is not unlimited. This God is known as the God of Ethical Monotheism. Doing the right thing is the point. This other guy’s idea of using a finite human attribute to judge an infinite non-human being is crazy. "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." (Romans 1:18-23) js
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2020 21:05:17 GMT
I just did. Consider: Bob: If time travel was possible, what would do you? Jim: Time travel is not possible. Bob specifically points out that Jim dismissed the assumption, given, hypothetical, postulate, premise, presumption, presupposition, and/or supposition of: "If time travel was possible..." Then Jim responds by asking Bob to specifically point out what he missed. Bob sighs, throws in his hands in the air and walks away. As someone who is not omniscient, I'd say it's more than possible, but I wouldn't ascribe our petty, limited attitude to it. I’ve never said that “God” is not possible. I’m saying you’ve made it impossible for him to be anything other than what you’ve been taught to believe he is, and you want me to agree you are right. What I’m saying is if indeed there is a God, then we can at least eliminate some things that he might be....like a spiteful Bronze Age sky god who thinks like a imperfect human. Or as some insist that this human thinking god would support an accident of luck who should be the permanent president of the United States. Christians and other religions put God in a box to be used only for their purposes. As I see it, my thinking is not the limited one...yours is. There is so much wrong in this post I wouldn't even know where to begin a response.
|
|
|
Post by SciFive on Dec 15, 2020 21:21:20 GMT
This God is known as the God of Ethical Monotheism. Doing the right thing is the point. This other guy’s idea of using a finite human attribute to judge an infinite non-human being is crazy. "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." (Romans 1:18-23) js Trying to imagine God as a man? Is this what you mean?
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2020 21:23:08 GMT
There is so much wrong in this post I wouldn't even know where to begin a response. I stumped you. With red herrings, straw men, and misjudgments? Yeah, you got me.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Dec 15, 2020 21:25:02 GMT
"The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things." (Romans 1:18-23) js Trying to imagine God as a man? Is this what you mean? More like trying to say that if we can't do something, neither can God. Or that what we don't comprehend can't exist.
|
|
|
Post by SciFive on Dec 15, 2020 21:32:21 GMT
Trying to imagine God as a man? Is this what you mean? More like trying to say that if we can't do something, neither can God. Or that what we don't comprehend can't exist. Ok, thanks. Part of the problem in all this is the laguage being used to try to describe an infinite being. God is all-powerful, which means maximum power. People say, “Oh, so he CAN DO ANYTHING. Can he do something he CAN’T DO? If not, then he can’t do everything.” Something like that. No, God is described as having maximum power. It also means he’s beyond being judged by the stupid questions of finite beings who can’t imagine what it would be like to be infinite.
|
|