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Post by SciFive on Dec 22, 2020 8:07:46 GMT
People can be inspired by things that wouldn’t necessarily have an effect on others.
As a child (maybe 11 or so), I heard about a movie or tv show where one man was the only person left alive in NYC after some kind of war or catastrophe. Everyone else had left and died.
He turned on the electricity for an apartment he found.
I thought, “What if I am the last person left alive and I need electricity? I should know how to turn it on.”
I knew I would learn electronics and technology.
I did.
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Post by Admin on Dec 22, 2020 9:35:32 GMT
"The First Cause argument is grounded in simple logic and reason" Not really, it comes loaded with special pleading which a logical fallacy An uncaused cause is the conclusion, not an exception. And when someone asks what caused the uncaused cause, it isn't a rebuttal, but rather a misunderstanding of what it means to be uncaused. Because it shows - among other things - a cause of our universe that depends on nothing else for its existence. That is a common denominator of the many different flavors of God. However, it doesn't show that it's a sentient being, only that it exists. So it's not airtight as proof of God, but then again, it doesn't claim to be. It simply concludes the existence of something that, in many ways, very closely resembles that which most people call God. Or in other words, a pretty good chunk of it. So I can believe there's a seven ton, fifty-foot green Martian from Neptune living in my cat's litter box and not be delusional? How does that work? Different religions are just different versions of the same thing. They all believe in the existence of a "higher power;" they just disagree about what it is and what it wants. Then what is our environment a product of? By the way, not every response is a disagreement. js
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Post by SciFive on Dec 22, 2020 9:49:46 GMT
A friend of mine was a very, very atheist Jew who wanted nothing to do with religion until he realized that he knew lots of Jews who felt this way.
He worried about Jewish culture surviving so he started learning and going to synagogues, etc.
He was fluent in Hebrew from having spent some years in Israel, so he read the Jewish Bible in Hebrew the first time.
The same Bible wording was found in Israel in ruins that were 2500 years old. So he knew he was reading the real narrative of thousands of years ago.
The wording in Hebrew plays on things like puns and interesting turns of phrase that can’t be reproduced in English.
He believed in his heart that people couldn’t have written this on their own thousands of years ago.
He started believing in God. His graduate level degrees made no difference. He was a smart, welk-educated New York Jew who believed in God.
Not irrational.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Dec 22, 2020 10:03:41 GMT
Mozart was composing his own operas at 6. How many opera composers does anyone think he knew? Well he knew his father Leopold who was a composer but i can`t remember if he was an opera composer or not. So at least 1 composer. As i am not an intelligent man i have to admit i am not sure what you are trying to argue here, It seems to me that you are saying because Mozart was a genius and could compose at the age of 6 that somhow is an argument for God. Of course i could be wrong.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 22, 2020 10:51:35 GMT
Mozart was composing his own operas at 6. How many opera composers does anyone think he knew? Well he knew his father Leopold who was a composer but i can`t remember if he was an opera composer or not. So at least 1 composer. As i am not an intelligent man i have to admit i am not sure what you are trying to argue here, It seems to me that you are saying because Mozart was a genius and could compose at the age of 6 that somhow is an argument for God. Of course i could be wrong. You’re wrong. The subcontext of all this seems to be that humans don’t have brains that permit original thinking. One guy asked us not to think anymore. The anti-religion religion is venturing off into weird places.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 22, 2020 11:23:04 GMT
The Jewish perspective about God’s existence being unprovable is that people would lose their free will if they knew for absolute certain that God is watching all of us and can wreak havoc on us after death with divine punishment.  So people choose right from wrong without being able to prove that this is the case. The most moral person I’ve ever known in my life is an atheist (Italian, not Jewish) who rejected Catholism at the age of 12. He is 100% atheist, but he defends Christians and Jews with everything he’s got because he believes in their right to believe without being hassled for it. I think he defends all religions for this reason. He turned into a Republican at 12 years old, too.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Dec 22, 2020 12:23:58 GMT
Well he knew his father Leopold who was a composer but i can`t remember if he was an opera composer or not. So at least 1 composer. As i am not an intelligent man i have to admit i am not sure what you are trying to argue here, It seems to me that you are saying because Mozart was a genius and could compose at the age of 6 that somhow is an argument for God. Of course i could be wrong. You’re wrong. The subcontext of all this seems to be that humans don’t have brains that permit original thinking. One guy asked us not to think anymore.The anti-religion religion is venturing off into weird places. And its mostly religious people who says stuff like that.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 22, 2020 12:31:49 GMT
You’re wrong. The subcontext of all this seems to be that humans don’t have brains that permit original thinking. One guy asked us not to think anymore.The anti-religion religion is venturing off into weird places. And its mostly religious people who says stuff like that. Nope! The anti-religion religion is fast becoming the most hostile and aggressive religion in the western world. Look around you. No one is asking anyone to believe anything here but the anti-religion reps are acting as if people are being killed in this thread.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 22, 2020 12:31:56 GMT
Mozart was composing his own operas at 6. How many opera composers does anyone think he knew? One must remember that he grew up in a very musical household with a father who was an accomplished composer. All through his life Mozart used models for his art, notably CPE and JC Bach. Mozart's early operas were derivative.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 22, 2020 12:37:56 GMT
The Jewish perspective about God’s existence being unprovable is that people would lose their free will if they knew for absolute certain that God is watching all of us and can wreak havoc on us after death with divine punishment.  So people choose right from wrong without being able to prove that this is the case. The most moral person I’ve ever known in my life is an atheist (Italian, not Jewish) who rejected Catholism at the age of 12. He is 100% atheist, but he defends Christians and Jews with everything he’s got because he believes in their right to believe without being hassled for it. I think he defends all religions for this reason. I too would march shoulder to shoulder with those who wish for the freedom to believe in whatever they want (and the ability to express those beliefs, if without hatred and violence). But, at the end of the march if I think those ideas are stupid or delusional, then I would expect the same freedom to tell them.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 22, 2020 12:38:24 GMT
Mozart was composing his own operas at 6. How many opera composers does anyone think he knew? One must remember that he grew up in a very musical household with a father who was an accomplished composer. All through his life Mozart used models for his art, notably CPE and JC Bach. Mozart's early operas were derivative. Mozart’s ultimate creativity was purely his own, though.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 22, 2020 12:41:55 GMT
One must remember that he grew up in a very musical household with a father who was an accomplished composer. All through his life Mozart used models for his art, notably CPE and JC Bach. Mozart's early operas were derivative. Mozart’s ultimate creativity was purely his own, though. No one doubts his genius, perhaps the greatest that music has ever known. But no talent works in a vacuum. Mozart's early work often shows the guiding hand of his father. Mozart had to be familiar with the way of doing things before he could work his own examples.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 22, 2020 12:45:14 GMT
And its mostly religious people who says stuff like that. the anti-religion reps are acting as if people are being killed in this thread. This from someone who earlier complained about persistent questioning at the end of which, apparently others will "virtually beat the living shit out of you" LOL
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 22, 2020 12:53:48 GMT
It's about simple logic and reason. The First Cause argument is grounded in simple logic and reason, and it's supported by the very world in which we live. While it's true that it doesn't empirically prove the existence of God, it covers a pretty good chunk of it and so it's not that big of a leap. And that's just one argument of many. I think those who say belief in God is irrational/unreasonable haven't really thought it through, and that is evidenced by this very thread. It's the ones who summarily dismiss believers as delusional that stall these chats. Not everyone who believes in God does so because the Bible (or a church) tells them to. Some theists are actually very intelligent people who actually think for themselves. I can't speak for other atheists but the only issue I have is with the ideas of those who assert, as a matter of faith, that the First Cause must be a magical one, one which is usually seen as deliberate and which is moreover a moral force, sometimes associated with a preference for the human. This seems to be loading a lot into reality for which there is no evidence. 'That which we call God', just as you say, can mean a host of things to different people. Traditionally though the word is imbued with cultural and philosophical assumptions and preconceptions which are based on psychology and emotion more than anything else.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 22, 2020 12:56:15 GMT
the anti-religion reps are acting as if people are being killed in this thread. This from someone who earlier complained about persistent questioning at the end of which, apparently others will "virtually beat the living shit out of you" LOL Look at the thread. Anti-religion religion reps are more hostile even in situations where no one is asking them to believe anything.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 22, 2020 13:00:07 GMT
This from someone who earlier complained about persistent questioning at the end of which, apparently others will "virtually beat the living shit out of you" LOL Look at the thread. Anti-religion religion reps are more hostile even in situations where no one is asking them to believe anything. One wonders why you should care so much since, apparently you are 'only offering information on an interesting religion'. Or something. In my view unbelievers and sceptics today have every right to be trenchant, persistent and stern with the apologists of belief, given the history. “Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.” ― Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
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Post by SciFive on Dec 22, 2020 13:03:40 GMT
Christopher Hitchens, Why I Make a Living Being An Asshole Over What People Think (Hint: It Pays Well)
Fixed it for him.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 22, 2020 13:05:16 GMT
Christopher Hitchens, Why I Make a Living Being An Asshole Over What People Think (Hint: It Pays Well) Fixed it for him. An ad hominem is not an argument. And, as already asked, if you are simply 'offering information about an interesting religion' why would this exercise you so much?
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Post by SciFive on Dec 22, 2020 13:09:01 GMT
“How Religion Poisons Everything” isn’t an attack on people at all? LOL
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 22, 2020 13:18:06 GMT
“How Religion Poisons Everything” isn’t an attack on people at all? LOL Its an attack on ideas. No matter how treasured or sincerely held an idea, that does not mean it ought or can not be criticised, at least outside of dictatorships or theocracies where questioning the ruling ideology can be fatal. People have rights, ideas have .. none. Have you not been paying attention to what I have been saying?
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