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Post by Arlon10 on Dec 3, 2020 6:38:46 GMT
That's not how I heard it. There's this whole thing about Jesus bridging the gap and somehow that means we've already been forgiven, we just have to accept it because you can't give what won't be taken. Refusing that gift is the only "sin" that won't be forgiven because it can't be. That's a condition. Of course you can be forgiven without accepting it. You can be forgiven without knowing it at all, as forgiveness is something exclusively in the heart of the forgiver. You can still forgive me even if I don't want to be forgiven. That is entirely up to you, and my opinion would actually be quite irrelevant. Not to pick a winner here since that is not what I do where scripture is involved, but I will show the scripture concerning the unpardonable sin. The "blasphemy" mentioned refers to "vilification." That is speaking evil of the Holy Spirit. It causes me wonder how anyone gets from that to "not accepting" forgiveness. Words and their meanings are indeed my specialty, but that is English first of all. I might try to help with the English meanings of translations of scriptures but, alas they were not written in English originally.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Dec 3, 2020 6:40:14 GMT
That's a condition. Of course you can be forgiven without accepting it. You can be forgiven without knowing it at all, as forgiveness is something exclusively in the heart of the forgiver. You can still forgive me even if I don't want to be forgiven. That is entirely up to you, and my opinion would actually be quite irrelevant. I suppose it's about as conditional as having to move if you want to change your seat. That you are forgiven even if you don't want to be is the crux of this whole issue, is it not? I'd say the problem comes in when someone doesn't think they need to be forgiven, or worse yet, that God is the one who needs to be forgiven by us. I don't think God needs to be forgiven, as I believe God is a figment of our imagination. Man created God in his image, not the other way around. It's not an coincidence that people who believe in God also believe that God happens to share their views. And naturally, people are not going to think they need to be forgiven by someone they don't even believe to exist. It would be unreasonable to expect such repentance.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 6:40:54 GMT
Hurting someone else is an offense to God. No? Not automatically. In the Bible, certainly, there are numerous instances where God demands it. Can we consider the possibility that it isn't for him? Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God. Seems to me a case could be made that loving God is what makes us not want to sin... "If you truly love and his will, then doing what you will, will in fact be doing God's will." (Peter Kreeft, I think. Or maybe it was CS Lewis. I don't remember.)
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 6:46:27 GMT
If you truly love someone, wouldn't you let them go if they didn't want to be with you? The choice matters. Let them go where? To hell? Absolutely not. They didn't choose that. And if their choice comes from ignorance, why not show them the truth and let them make an informed choice? Do you suppose it counts if the only reason someone is with God is to avoid hell? You seem like you would be a very controlling God.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 3, 2020 6:54:02 GMT
This is not the Jewish perspective, as I said. We are individuals. Justice is designed to see us this way. I thought I remember you saying there is no hell. Only good things for everyone after death. You misunderstood or I didn’t explain it well enough (which is true, no doubt). Jews don’t believe in angels having free will. They could not form their own domain that gets all people by default unless something else happens. God dispenses divine justice after a person dies. No fire and pitchforks, but people can be punished by God in a non-physical way. The big thing is that evil people lose out on a life in heaven. They just cease existing totally. It’s the Jewish perspective.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 6:56:42 GMT
I thought I remember you saying there is no hell. Only good things for everyone after death. You misunderstood or I didn’t explain it well enough (which is true, no doubt). Jews don’t believe in angels having free will. They could not form their own domain that gets all people by default unless something else happens. God dispenses divine justice after a person dies. No fire and pitchforks, but people can be punished by God in a non-physical way. The big thing is that evil people lose out on a life in heaven. They just cease existing totally. It’s the Jewish perspective. I didn't realize Hell was a physical place. Is Heaven physical, too? Streets of gold and all that? Total annihilation doesn't seem so bad. I've been there before.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 3, 2020 7:00:41 GMT
You misunderstood or I didn’t explain it well enough (which is true, no doubt). Jews don’t believe in angels having free will. They could not form their own domain that gets all people by default unless something else happens. God dispenses divine justice after a person dies. No fire and pitchforks, but people can be punished by God in a non-physical way. The big thing is that evil people lose out on a life in heaven. They just cease existing totally. It’s the Jewish perspective. I didn't realize Hell was a physical place. Is Heaven physical, too? Streets of gold and all that? Total annihilation doesn't seem so bad. I've been there before. Hell doesn’t exist (per the Jewish perspective). Don’t people describe it as fire? That sounds pretty physical. Jews don’t see heaven as physical.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Dec 3, 2020 7:00:57 GMT
Let them go where? To hell? Absolutely not. They didn't choose that. And if their choice comes from ignorance, why not show them the truth and let them make an informed choice? Do you suppose it counts if the only reason someone is with God is to avoid hell? It's been the sole purpose of fire and brimstone preaching all these centuries, so I guess. To fear God was a big part of religious observance up until about 30 years ago. Still is among the Catholics, but the notion of fearing God is avoided in most Protestant circles these days. But you don't need to go far back in order to smell the brimstone. Of course I would be a controlling God. If things didn't go the way I wanted them to, I'd fix them. This is what people do: we fix what is in our power to fix, and we expect (even demand) others to do the same. If a leader had the means and opportunity to fix something, but did not bother to do it, we would not praise him for giving us freedom or for not being controlling. We would chastise him for not doing his job.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 3, 2020 7:06:56 GMT
God has never been portrayed as communist.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 7:09:55 GMT
Do you suppose it counts if the only reason someone is with God is to avoid hell? It's been the sole purpose of fire and brimstone preaching all these centuries, so I guess. To fear God was a big part of religious observance up until about 30 years ago. Still is among the Catholics, but the notion of fearing God is avoided in most Protestant circles these days. But you don't need to go far back in order to smell the brimstone. I meant, is it love? I don't think we're talking about the same kind of fear. The Bible seems to indicate it's much more than simply being afraid: www.billkochman.com/VerseLists/verse235.htmlOf particular note is this one: "by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." If the "fear of God" actually means being afraid of God, shouldn't they run the other way? Or is it because they fear hell more? Why is it God's job to fix what you broke? Sounds to me like you'd raise a bunch of entitled pussies. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by novastar6 on Dec 3, 2020 7:10:28 GMT
God has never been portrayed as communist.
That would explain why the Democrats hate Him and the idea of Him so much. That, and the whole thing where you can't bribe, threaten or lie your way out of what's coming to you and there will be a true and full account, not their cooked books and bleached cell phones.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Dec 3, 2020 8:00:01 GMT
It's been the sole purpose of fire and brimstone preaching all these centuries, so I guess. To fear God was a big part of religious observance up until about 30 years ago. Still is among the Catholics, but the notion of fearing God is avoided in most Protestant circles these days. But you don't need to go far back in order to smell the brimstone. I meant, is it love? Of course not. You can't force love. But through fear, you can force people into going through the motions of love, until it becomes second nature. What do you mean, "run the other way"? Which way? If you fear God, it stands to reason that you believe in God. And if you believe in God, then you also believe there is no running away. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. Why would you think I was saying God should fix what I broke? If God had fixed things, I wouldn't be breaking things in the first place. What needs fixing isn't the things that people break, it's the people themselves. And I am repeating myself at this point.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 3, 2020 8:17:59 GMT
Fixing the people is communism.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 9:02:50 GMT
Of course not. You can't force love. But through fear, you can force people into going through the motions of love, until it becomes second nature. As an omniscient being, you would know better. In your world, we would "only desire for happiness in ourselves and others" and we would be "perfectly happy." Forgive me for confusing that with love. I don't know about you, but when I'm afraid of something, I tend to not run toward it. Some believe hell is the absence of God, but the Bible disagrees with them. Well, you could have stopped at the question. You were talking about fixing things. It's "what people do." But if you, being the controlling god you are, are to be chastised for not "doing your job" when you don't fix things, then apparently your job is to fix things that you - or anyone - breaks. I inferred that to mean God should fix what we break because its his fault for giving us the ability to do so. I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 9:51:26 GMT
I didn't realize Hell was a physical place. Is Heaven physical, too? Streets of gold and all that? Total annihilation doesn't seem so bad. I've been there before. Hell doesn’t exist (per the Jewish perspective). Don’t people describe it as fire? That sounds pretty physical. Jews don’t see heaven as physical. If no one makes it to Heaven, would it still exist?
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Post by Karl Aksel on Dec 3, 2020 9:52:28 GMT
Of course not. You can't force love. But through fear, you can force people into going through the motions of love, until it becomes second nature. As an omniscient being, you would know better. In your world, we would "only desire for happiness in ourselves and others" and we would be "perfectly happy." Forgive me for confusing that with love. I'm sorry, but you are mixing together the Biblical god with what I would do given the powers. Your reply here makes no sense, it is a complete non-sequitur. Are you being obtuse on purpose? If you believe in God, then you also believe that there is no running away. You can't "run the other way" because there IS no "other way". If garbage is piling up on the streets because it accumulates faster than the garbage men can remove it, people will likely look to the city council or the mayor for a solution. They don't expect him to start picking up garbage in the streets, but rather fix the underlying causes to why there is garbage on the streets.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 10:57:25 GMT
As an omniscient being, you would know better. In your world, we would "only desire for happiness in ourselves and others" and we would be "perfectly happy." Forgive me for confusing that with love. I'm sorry, but you are mixing together the Biblical god with what I would do given the powers. Your reply here makes no sense, it is a complete non-sequitur. Clickety: imdb2.freeforums.net/post/4450499/threadAs you can see, your scenario (ie, what you would do given the powers) was a direct response to our discussion about God's benevolence. So if it's a non-sequitur to mix the biblical god with what you would do given the powers, it most certainly isn't mine. For what it's worth, I didn't think it was a change of subject. I was speaking in context of whatever verse I pasted. "The other way" would be towards evil (as opposed to departing from it). As for how you mean it, the Bible agrees with you. Psalm 139:7-8.
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.In this case, it might very will be the mayor's fault. Maybe he didn't hire enough garbage men. Whatever the reason, I disagree with the implication that we don't have all we need to fix what really needs fixing. Thanks for the chat.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Dec 3, 2020 11:52:45 GMT
I'm sorry, but you are mixing together the Biblical god with what I would do given the powers. Your reply here makes no sense, it is a complete non-sequitur. Clickety: IMDB2.freeforums.net/post/4450499/threadAs you can see, your scenario (ie, what you would do given the powers) was a direct response to our discussion about God's benevolence. So if it's a non-sequitur to mix the biblical god with what you would do given the powers, it most certainly isn't mine. For what it's worth, I didn't think it was a change of subject. I didn't mix me with God, it was a juxtaposition. You, however, conflated me with the Biblical god. It doesn't matter if the direction is physical or metaphorical. Since God would be the supreme being, there'd be no salvation in evil. So there'd be no running away no matter how you'd cut it. If someone held you at gunpoint, would you be inclined to do what he said, or would you rather want to piss him off? The greater the fear, the greater the motivation to obey. My point is that in a perfect world, things would not need fixing in the first place. Likewise.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 3, 2020 11:55:43 GMT
Hell doesn’t exist (per the Jewish perspective). Don’t people describe it as fire? That sounds pretty physical. Jews don’t see heaven as physical. If no one makes it to Heaven, would it still exist? Sure, the angels are there, and God’s presence.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2020 11:58:38 GMT
If no one makes it to Heaven, would it still exist? Sure, the angels are there, and God’s presence. Fair enough. ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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