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Post by SciFive on Dec 3, 2020 12:07:25 GMT
You misunderstood or I didn’t explain it well enough (which is true, no doubt). Jews don’t believe in angels having free will. They could not form their own domain that gets all people by default unless something else happens. God dispenses divine justice after a person dies. No fire and pitchforks, but people can be punished by God in a non-physical way. The big thing is that evil people lose out on a life in heaven. They just cease existing totally.
It’s the Jewish perspective. How is evil defined by God? If one ceases to exist "totally", what is this comparison relative too? In what form does one exist after ceasing to exist on earth? Jewish Philosopher - 800 years ago: Maimonides wrote on theodicy (the philosophical attempt to reconcile the existence of a God with the existence of evil). He took the premise that an omnipotent and good God exists. In The Guide for the Perplexed, Maimonides writes that all the evil that exists within human beings stems from their individual attributes, while all good comes from a universally shared humanity (Guide 3:8). He says that there are people who are guided by higher purpose, and there are those who are guided by physicality and must strive to find the higher purpose with which to guide their actions. To justify the existence of evil, assuming God is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, Maimonides postulates that one who created something by causing its opposite not to exist is not the same as creating something that exists; so evil is merely the absence of good. God did not create evil, rather God created good, and evil exists where good is absent (Guide 3:10). Therefore, all good is divine invention, and evil both is not and comes secondarily. Maimonides contests the common view that evil outweighs good in the world. He says that if one were to examine existence only in terms of humanity, then that person may observe evil to dominate good, but if one looks at the whole of the universe, then he sees good is significantly more common than evil (Guide 3:12). Man, he reasons, is too insignificant a figure in God's myriad works to be their primary characterizing force, and so when people see mostly evil in their lives, they are not taking into account the extent of positive Creation outside of themselves. Maimonides believes that there are three types of evil in the world: evil caused by nature, evil that people bring upon others, and evil man brings upon himself (Guide 3:12). The first type of evil Maimonides states is the rarest form, but arguably of the most necessary—the balance of life and death in both the human and animal worlds itself, he recognizes, is essential to God's plan. Maimonides writes that the second type of evil is relatively rare, and that humanity brings it upon itself. The third type of evil humans bring upon themselves and is the source of most of the ills of the world. These are the result of people falling victim to their physical desires. To prevent the majority of evil which stems from harm we do to ourselves, we must learn how to ignore our bodily urges.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 3, 2020 16:49:44 GMT
P.S. “Maimonides writes that the second type of evil is relatively rare, and that humanity brings it upon itself.”
Hitler, USSR, North Korea.
This philosopher (who came up with this) lived 800 years ago.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 3, 2020 21:18:25 GMT
The advice is grow up and learn to make choices, decisions, and commitments in the absence of absolute and objective guides, without projecting out into the cosmos. You forgot to mention the consensus of scientists, or did you change your mind about that? This has nothing to do with science, but I am naturally pleased you can appreciate a consensus of them.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 4, 2020 17:03:09 GMT
Jewish Philosopher - 800 years ago: Maimonides wrote on theodicy (the philosophical attempt to reconcile the existence of a God with the existence of evil). He took the premise that an omnipotent and good God exists. In The Guide for the Perplexed, Maimonides writes that all the evil that exists within human beings stems from their individual attributes, while all good comes from a universally shared humanity (Guide 3:8). He says that there are people who are guided by higher purpose, and there are those who are guided by physicality and must strive to find the higher purpose with which to guide their actions. To justify the existence of evil, assuming God is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, Maimonides postulates that one who created something by causing its opposite not to exist is not the same as creating something that exists; so evil is merely the absence of good. God did not create evil, rather God created good, and evil exists where good is absent (Guide 3:10). Therefore, all good is divine invention, and evil both is not and comes secondarily. Maimonides contests the common view that evil outweighs good in the world. He says that if one were to examine existence only in terms of humanity, then that person may observe evil to dominate good, but if one looks at the whole of the universe, then he sees good is significantly more common than evil (Guide 3:12). Man, he reasons, is too insignificant a figure in God's myriad works to be their primary characterizing force, and so when people see mostly evil in their lives, they are not taking into account the extent of positive Creation outside of themselves. Maimonides believes that there are three types of evil in the world: evil caused by nature, evil that people bring upon others, and evil man brings upon himself (Guide 3:12). The first type of evil Maimonides states is the rarest form, but arguably of the most necessary—the balance of life and death in both the human and animal worlds itself, he recognizes, is essential to God's plan. Maimonides writes that the second type of evil is relatively rare, and that humanity brings it upon itself. The third type of evil humans bring upon themselves and is the source of most of the ills of the world. These are the result of people falling victim to their physical desires. To prevent the majority of evil which stems from harm we do to ourselves, we must learn how to ignore our bodily urges. Is this God defining evil, or an academic philosopher? I asked how God defines evil?
In what form does one exist, if not evil, after the body ceases to exist? Once this has been rationally defined, please then explain how the evil ones will exist, before they cease to exist after their human bodies cease to exist?
This overall description of evil is from the most profound philosopher in Judaism’s 4000 year history and he wrote about all this 800 years ago. I’ve said REPEATEDLY that this is the Jewish perspective about how our long-lived religion defines our views about God. If you want a quote directly from God himself, ask Him to open an account here.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 4, 2020 18:36:20 GMT
Life after death is seen by Judaism as spiritual life.
You either have it or you don’t.
If you don’t have it, then you end when you die physically. You are buried and there’s nothing else happening.
This is the Jewish perspective.
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Post by Admin on Dec 5, 2020 2:15:11 GMT
Is this God defining evil, or an academic philosopher? I asked how God defines evil?
In what form does one exist, if not evil, after the body ceases to exist? Once this has been rationally defined, please then explain how the evil ones will exist, before they cease to exist after their human bodies cease to exist?
This overall description of evil is from the most profound philosopher in Judaism’s 4000 year history and he wrote about all this 800 years ago. I’ve said REPEATEDLY that this is the Jewish perspective about how our long-lived religion defines our views about God. If you want a quote directly from God himself, ask Him to open an account here. You let religion define your views about God?
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Post by Arlon10 on Dec 5, 2020 8:50:38 GMT
You forgot to mention the consensus of scientists, or did you change your mind about that? This has nothing to do with science, but I am naturally pleased you can appreciate a consensus of them. Par for the course then.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 5, 2020 17:37:59 GMT
This overall description of evil is from the most profound philosopher in Judaism’s 4000 year history and he wrote about all this 800 years ago. I’ve said REPEATEDLY that this is the Jewish perspective about how our long-lived religion defines our views about God. If you want a quote directly from God himself, ask Him to open an account here. You let religion define your views about God? The Jewish people introduced Ethical Monotheism to the world 4000 years ago. I consider 4000 years of analysis on this to be wiser and more interesting to contemplate than my own version (starting from scratch).
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Post by Admin on Dec 5, 2020 22:06:05 GMT
You let religion define your views about God? The Jewish people introduced Ethical Monotheism to the world 4000 years ago. Who defined their views, then? I don't.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2020 22:37:29 GMT
I don't have a Bible in front of me but God repented for ever making man. We are Gods big mistake. Just some of us.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 5, 2020 23:43:52 GMT
The Jewish people introduced Ethical Monotheism to the world 4000 years ago. Who defined their views, then? I don't. When someone is interested in math, they don’t go off to invent their own. No one is asking you to do anything or think anything. I’m saying what the Jewish perspective happens to be. It’s a religion board so I think it’s relevant.
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Post by Admin on Dec 5, 2020 23:58:06 GMT
Who defined their views, then? I don't. When someone is interested in math, they don’t go off to invent their own. No one is asking you to do anything or think anything. I’m saying what the Jewish perspective happens to be. It’s a religion board so I think it’s relevant. Thanks for not asking, but I think all we need to know about God is innate. I'd say newborns are closer to God than any of us. I'm getting the impression that you don't share the Jewish perspective. Or if you do, you don't really understand it. Unless, of course, you're a "math professor." If not, then you're just a student who blindly follows those who have been deemed "experts." Why do you suppose God doesn't let everyone in on his secrets?
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Post by SciFive on Dec 6, 2020 0:23:28 GMT
When someone is interested in math, they don’t go off to invent their own. No one is asking you to do anything or think anything. I’m saying what the Jewish perspective happens to be. It’s a religion board so I think it’s relevant. Thanks for not asking, but I think all we need to know about God is innate. I'd say newborns are closer to God than any of us. I'm getting the impression that you don't share the Jewish perspective. Or if you do, you don't really understand it. Unless, of course, you're a "math professor." If not, then you're just a student who blindly follows those who have been deemed "experts." Why do you suppose God doesn't let everyone in on his secrets? Jews are forbidden to proselytize our religion, so I have to be careful what I say to non-Jews about it. It puts me at somewhat of a distance from you. The real nature of an infinite spiritual being is something that I don’t think human beings can understand while living in a physical world. We see God in more human terms - even in Judaism. God is like a father although Jews are extremely aware that God doesn’t have a gender. It’s easier to imagine a human voice. It’s part of Jewish oral history to believe that God did speak to the large number of Jews in the Sinai 3300 years ago and a lot of people fainted or collapsed. It’s a story. Trying to explain the Jewish perspective is something that can be greeted with “Oh, I didn’t know that” or “Gee, that’s kind of interesting” or snide remarks. It’s just information.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2020 0:32:28 GMT
Thanks for not asking, but I think all we need to know about God is innate. I'd say newborns are closer to God than any of us. I'm getting the impression that you don't share the Jewish perspective. Or if you do, you don't really understand it. Unless, of course, you're a "math professor." If not, then you're just a student who blindly follows those who have been deemed "experts." Why do you suppose God doesn't let everyone in on his secrets? Jews are forbidden to proselytize our religion, so I have to be careful what I say to non-Jews about it. It puts me at somewhat of a distance from you. The real nature of an infinite spiritual being is something that I don’t think human beings can understand while living in a physical world. We see God in more human terms - even in Judaism. God is like a father although Jews are extremely aware that God doesn’t have a gender. It’s easier to imagine a human voice. It’s part of Jewish oral history to believe that God did speak to the large number of Jews in the Sinai 3300 years ago and a lot of people fainted or collapsed. It’s a story. Trying to explain the Jewish perspective is something that can be greeted with “Oh, I didn’t know that” or “Gee, that’s kind of interesting” or snide remarks. It’s just information. I'm not asking you to proselytize. I'm aware of how some people interpret explanations as such, but I'm not one of them. I've just noticed that when someone asks you something about what you believe, you defer to the "Jewish perspective." I would take that to mean the Jewish perspective is your perspective, but it can't be if only the "scholars" understand it.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 6, 2020 0:48:42 GMT
Jews are forbidden to proselytize our religion, so I have to be careful what I say to non-Jews about it. It puts me at somewhat of a distance from you. The real nature of an infinite spiritual being is something that I don’t think human beings can understand while living in a physical world. We see God in more human terms - even in Judaism. God is like a father although Jews are extremely aware that God doesn’t have a gender. It’s easier to imagine a human voice. It’s part of Jewish oral history to believe that God did speak to the large number of Jews in the Sinai 3300 years ago and a lot of people fainted or collapsed. It’s a story. Trying to explain the Jewish perspective is something that can be greeted with “Oh, I didn’t know that” or “Gee, that’s kind of interesting” or snide remarks. It’s just information. I'm not asking you to proselytize. I'm aware of how some people interpret explanations as such, but I'm not one of them. I've just noticed that when someone asks you something about what you believe, you defer to the "Jewish perspective." I would take that to mean the Jewish perspective is your perspective, but it can't be if only the "scholars" understand it. I’m required to keep my distance from you in this. I’ve studied our philosopher from 800 years ago and I understand what he meant. He wrote the Guide for the Perplexed to explain it. He did it well.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 6, 2020 1:02:57 GMT
Babies know math almost from birth. If you’ve ever known a breast-feeding infant, they learn almost immediately that Mom has two. They expect the second one every time. Sometimes they put their hand on the second one while drinking from the first one to call dibs on the second one. In case any interlopers come along. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2020 1:30:08 GMT
I'm not asking you to proselytize. I'm aware of how some people interpret explanations as such, but I'm not one of them. I've just noticed that when someone asks you something about what you believe, you defer to the "Jewish perspective." I would take that to mean the Jewish perspective is your perspective, but it can't be if only the "scholars" understand it. I’m required to keep my distance from you in this. I’ve studied our philosopher from 800 years ago and I understand what he meant. He wrote the Guide for the Perplexed to explain it. He did it well. Silly me, I thought understanding what God means was the objective. I'm not sure why you think someone else has to do that for you, let alone an 800-year old philosopher who proselytized millions into the Jewish perspective.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 6, 2020 5:26:46 GMT
I’m required to keep my distance from you in this. I’ve studied our philosopher from 800 years ago and I understand what he meant. He wrote the Guide for the Perplexed to explain it. He did it well. Silly me, I thought understanding what God means was the objective. I'm not sure why you think someone else has to do that for you, let alone an 800-year old philosopher who proselytized millions into the Jewish perspective. You seem to think everyone innately “knows God” from birth. If this happened to you, congrats.
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Post by SciFive on Dec 6, 2020 5:41:31 GMT
Admin, By the way, I said we are forbidden to proselytize to NON-Jews, not Jews. It has been customary for Jews to learn to read and write starting at 3 years old. This goes back 3300 years. In Israel, kindergarten is 3 years of school - 3 year olds, 4 year olds and 5 year olds. We were called The People of the Book because the most common thing Jews read (past and present) is the Torah (the first five books of the Jewish Bible) and Jews consider this to have divine inspiration (not just something written by scholars). The Talmud was the oral version which was written down (finally) after the defeat from the Roman Empire. Holy men have commented in it since then. The Talmud in English is in 73 volumes.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2020 5:44:19 GMT
Silly me, I thought understanding what God means was the objective. I'm not sure why you think someone else has to do that for you, let alone an 800-year old philosopher who proselytized millions into the Jewish perspective. You seem to think everyone innately “knows God” from birth. If this happened to you, congrats. It shouldn't just seem like that's what I think when I flat out told you: "I think all we need to know about God is innate. I'd say newborns are closer to God than any of us." Are you paying attention? I mean, I'm not writing novels here. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) Are you getting testy over the thought of being able to "know God" with what God gave you instead of what you got from some dude's book? He's just a man like any other, and as such, has no special insight in these matters that the rest of us don't.
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