|
|
Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 16, 2020 20:05:37 GMT
Ummm, no. You can't equate the Negro Leagues with the American League or even the Federal League. One, their scoring (hence their record keeping) was inconsistent. Big games were not scored, games between a power and a town team were counted. Major Leagues games had standard scorers, Negro Leagues used any old score sheet. Two, the level of competition was substandard. There was a huge difference between the top teams, the KC Monarchs, the Homestead Grays, the Pittsburgh Crawfords, and the dregs was immense. Yeah, you could say the same about the Yankees and the St. Louis Browns, but teams that had no business being in the Negro Leagues would join, they would get the shit pounded out of them and drop out. Be like a Carolina League team playing for two weeks in the AL and having the stats count. Will the exhibitions games played between the Negro Leagues and the Majors become official? Is Josh Gibson the all time HR leader now, even though no one knows how many he really hit? Will the Japanese Leagues become official? My knowledge of really old baseball isn't as strong as my knowledge of really old football, so I could be swayed either way. In the NFL, you had amazing disparity of teams' legitimacy in the early years of the game. There are all of these fly-by-night organizations (Kenosha Maroons? Tonawanda Kardex? New York Brickley Giants?) whose statistics count (if they were counted). You see it with college football as well, colleges counting wins versus YMCA teams in the 1800s in their all-time totals. Is that true for 19th century baseball as well? To my knowledge, Negro League teams were just a constant barnstorming outfit. They would play another Negro League outfit, then play an industrial league team, then a white minor league exhibition, then another leagues series, then another barnstorming outfit, etc. The League games were supposed to be the ones than counted for standing and players stats. But, inevitably, the players stats from the Homestead Grays and the Podunk Possums would get counted in (the game where Josh Gibson hit 13 homers against a team that didn't exist the day before). Teams would officially join, then drop out a couple weeks later. The article says that seven leagues will now be considered "major". Including something called the East-West League that lasted half of 1932. If you look at the standings, there are two teams included but separate. The footnote says, "† Pittsburgh and New York were not in the league, but their games are included in the statistics" Why?
And the article says that MLB and the Hall of Fame and SABR will go back and standardize the stats from the Leagues. Good luck. The box score from every major league game, from 1876 (and before) the 2020 exist. The were printed in the papers and sent to the league office. Not so for the Negro Leagues. Many box scores didn't appear in a newspaper and are lost. The Sporting News published every damned box score for every league for many years. Want to check the July 10th game between the Asheville Tourists and the Portsmouth Cubs, easily found (Portsmouth won, 12-5). Did the Sporting News cover the Homestead Grays v. the Chicago American giants, fuck no
|
|
|
|
Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 16, 2020 20:13:31 GMT
If they are - it would outrage me
Baseball is in a weird situation. With basketball, it's the basketball hall of fame, not the NBA hall of fame. Arvydas Sabonis is in the basketball hall of fame. He's not in there for six years of playing with the Trailblazers, but if he doesn't play with the Trailblazers, he's not getting into the Hall of Fame. The greatest player in some Brazilian league is not in the Hall of Fame unless he played some in the NBA. Otto Graham only played six years in the NFL. He's not a Hall of Famer if they didn't count his AAFC years and stats. With football, if your team/league was absorbed by the NFL, those stats count even if they weren't against NFL teams. I think the same works with the ABA. The greatest Negro League players are in the MLB Hall of Fame, so those leagues have already been granted a level of legitimacy, but the teams weren't incorporated into MLB. If the numbers are suspect, why are they in the Hall of Fame? There's no two ways around this, the Negro League stars were great players. Players like Willie Wells, Oscar Charleston,, Josh Gibson, were as good as white players, just like Willie Mays and Bob Gibson. And I have no problem with players like Gibson, Rube Foster, Cool Papa Bell being in there. But, like the basketball HOF, recognize others. Sahadaru Oh and other Japaneses players. Frank Shellenback and other great Minor League players. We all know that is isn't 100% talent, that players who never played a game are in because they were still great players. Hell, if you can prove great Little League players stat wise, put them in.
FFS, Bob Uecker, a ghastly player, is in Cooperstown.
|
|
|
|
Post by NJtoTX on Dec 16, 2020 20:23:26 GMT
This is like stating that the PED League totals should count and that Barry Bonds should have home run records.
|
|
|
|
Post by NJtoTX on Dec 16, 2020 20:31:31 GMT
No You can't combine stats like that i.e. - some players get to benefit just because they chose to play in a weak league and were afraid for ride with the Big Boys if that's true - the NFL counts AFL stats - shame on them maybe that's why everybody says Dan Fouts was a good QB - yeah - maybe against weak competition
Fouts is post AFL. And the AFL teams were beating the NFL teams the last two years that they played each other. Same with the Browns in the AAFC. In 1950, the AAFC champion Browns blew out the NFL champion Eagles 35-10 in their first game in the NFL. The Browns won the NFL title that year. The old NFL teams (including the 3 in the AFC) were 40-19-2 vs the old AFL teams right after the merger. |
|
|
|
Post by tristramshandy on Dec 16, 2020 20:36:21 GMT
Fouts is post AFL. And the AFL teams were beating the NFL teams the last two years that they played each other. Same with the Browns in the AAFC. In 1950, the AAFC champion Browns blew out the NFL champion Eagles 35-10 in their first game in the NFL. The Browns won the NFL title that year. How come the NFL survived and the AFL didn't........
It made more sense to move ten teams into sixteen team league than vice versa. It was the NFL that asked the AFL to come over, not the other way around.
|
|
|
|
Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 16, 2020 20:38:16 GMT
How come the NFL survived and the AFL didn't........
It made more sense to move ten teams into sixteen team league than vice versa. It was the NFL that asked the AFL to come over, not the other way around. And the NFL was older. Seniority rules
|
|
|
|
Post by screamingtreefrogs on Dec 16, 2020 20:41:36 GMT
It made more sense to move ten teams into sixteen team league than vice versa. It was the NFL that asked the AFL to come over, not the other way around. And the NFL was older. Seniority rules
This all sounds made up to me
I think you're both pulling my leg
I'm going to have to look into it
|
|
|
|
Post by Rufus-T on Dec 16, 2020 21:19:31 GMT
Why don't they just might as well add the Women's league to the MLB. It is only fair.
|
|
|
|
Post by tristramshandy on Dec 16, 2020 21:33:32 GMT
Why don't they just might as well add the Women's league to the MLB. It is only fair. On the other hand, all stats and accomplishments pre-integration should be used against those players. Just whites hitting homers and striking out other whites. If you're not facing the 1910s equivalent of Barry Bonds/Hank Aaron/Willie Mays, let alone any foreign players, I'm not super impressed with you, Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson.
|
|
|
|
Post by loofapotato on Dec 16, 2020 23:35:18 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by ReyKahuka on Dec 17, 2020 15:26:07 GMT
I'm with TheGoodman on this. It's a shame it took so long for black players to get equal opportunity in the majors, but it seems like the schedules the Negro League teams played were all over the place. If they weren't playing against major league talent, how can you count the stats? And if those stats are now accepted, then you have to count every league on Earth. Which is fine by me, but I don't think they're going to do it. You can't go halfway on this stuff.
|
|
|
|
Post by _ on Dec 17, 2020 17:20:23 GMT
I'm with TheGoodman on this. It's a shame it took so long for black players to get equal opportunity in the majors, but it seems like the schedules the Negro League teams played were all over the place. If they weren't playing against major league talent, how can you count the stats? And if those stats are now accepted, then you have to count every league on Earth. Which is fine by me, but I don't think they're going to do it. You can't go halfway on this stuff.
|
|
|
|
Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 17, 2020 18:42:38 GMT
Wow, Baseballfever.com. I posted there quite a bit (I'll never tell who I was). That was a good forum but one of the best contributors died and the site went downhill.
|
|
