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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 5, 2021 17:40:29 GMT
Only the strangers that offer those thoughts for discussion on a forum devoted to the subject. No discussions. Just judgments to smear billions of people. This thread has been one long discussion, even if you are reluctant to take full part in it with anything but absolute statements and insults against anyone who criticises your beliefs..
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Post by SciFive on Jan 5, 2021 17:42:50 GMT
No discussions. Just judgments to smear billions of people. This thread has been one long discussion, even if you are reluctant to take full part in it. There is no give and take. It’s one long smear of most of the human race for how most people think privately. It’s the cancel culture going against the human race. |
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 5, 2021 17:45:42 GMT
This thread has been one long discussion, even if you are reluctant to take full part in it. There is no give and take. It’s one long smear of most of the human race for how most people think privately. It’s the cancel culture going against the human race. Exaggerate much? LOL
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 5, 2021 17:48:46 GMT
It is interesting though that people who believe in God generally do not believe in the above (with, in some circles, the exception of the last you listed). God belief seems to have a different characteristic to those other beliefs. That's not to say it's more likely to be true than those beliefs. Indeed, I have seen some reasonably compelling arguments that we're more likely to be living in the matrix than not. But there is something about it that makes people cling to it much more strongly than other examples of supposed wishful thinking. Considering that there are quite a few people who believe the last one, it might be useful to consider what it has in common with the God belief. I think it's that people often develop very profound, personal attachments to religion and politics (both falling under the category of ideology) and those beliefs become far more important to them than truth and reason; although very few people would consciously admit this, so instead of saying the belief is more important than truth or reason, they just assume they're truthful and reasonable. Religion probably happens most because of early indoctrination; many kids are told from a very early age that believing in God is the most important thing in the world, and this often accompanies threats about eternal damnation if they don't, not to mention moral and social condemnation if they don't. Politics usually doesn't get to kids as early, but many people base a huge chunk of their identity around their politics, often putting a kind of exuberant faith in certain figures/parties that's very similar to religious faith. It may just be a point in general that on any subject where passions run deep people often prioritize their beliefs (and all the feelings surrounding those beliefs) over truth and rationality. The reason most of those other instances aren't common (besides the Trump one) is simply because there's no real social mechanism for imbuing those beliefs with the same level of profundity. They don't scratch the same psychological itch for people desperate to belong to a group or cause and then have that in-group/out-group "war" dynamic that some people seem to crave. Another good example that I just thought of, though it's rarer still than the religion/Trump one, is sports. Some people become so passionate about their sports teams that they can't tolerate any criticism of them and will make all kinds of excuses when things don't go their way. I would agree with much of that. I think one thing that makes god belief differ from other beliefs is the meaning it has to the believer. No-one really cares about the flying spaghetti monster. Another is the practical consequences of holding the belief. If god belief scratches some existential itch for some, it doesn't overly matter if they are right or not, that itch gets scratched either way and since the truth is inaccessible, you'll never know you're wrong. However, the main reason you want there to be a billion dollars in your account is so you can spend them and so the benefit cannot be realised if it's not true. God belief therefore has the powerful combination of meaning a lot to the believer and having few negative consequences if it turns out to be false.
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Post by SciFive on Jan 5, 2021 17:49:30 GMT
There is no give and take. It’s one long smear of most of the human race for how most people think privately. It’s the cancel culture going against the human race. Exaggerate much? LOL Not exaggerating at all. The anti-religion religion has no agenda other than trying to hurt billions of people for their thoughts. |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 5, 2021 17:50:05 GMT
Only the strangers that offer those thoughts for discussion on a forum devoted to the subject. No discussions. No discussions, just two people responding to the arguments each are making. I'm sure there's a word for that...
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 5, 2021 17:52:31 GMT
Not exaggerating at all. The anti-religion religion has no agenda other than trying to hurt billions of people for their thoughts. And billions of people voted you their defender, and shared their private thoughts with you, when exactly? What was that definition of 'religion' you have? I missed it last time...
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 5, 2021 17:53:59 GMT
Considering that there are quite a few people who believe the last one, it might be useful to consider what it has in common with the God belief. I think it's that people often develop very profound, personal attachments to religion and politics (both falling under the category of ideology) and those beliefs become far more important to them than truth and reason; although very few people would consciously admit this, so instead of saying the belief is more important than truth or reason, they just assume they're truthful and reasonable. Religion probably happens most because of early indoctrination; many kids are told from a very early age that believing in God is the most important thing in the world, and this often accompanies threats about eternal damnation if they don't, not to mention moral and social condemnation if they don't. Politics usually doesn't get to kids as early, but many people base a huge chunk of their identity around their politics, often putting a kind of exuberant faith in certain figures/parties that's very similar to religious faith. It may just be a point in general that on any subject where passions run deep people often prioritize their beliefs (and all the feelings surrounding those beliefs) over truth and rationality. The reason most of those other instances aren't common (besides the Trump one) is simply because there's no real social mechanism for imbuing those beliefs with the same level of profundity. They don't scratch the same psychological itch for people desperate to belong to a group or cause and then have that in-group/out-group "war" dynamic that some people seem to crave. Another good example that I just thought of, though it's rarer still than the religion/Trump one, is sports. Some people become so passionate about their sports teams that they can't tolerate any criticism of them and will make all kinds of excuses when things don't go their way. I would agree with much of that. I think one thing that makes god belief differ from other beliefs is the meaning it has to the believer. No-one really cares about the flying spaghetti monster. Another is the practical consequences of holding the belief. If god belief scratches some existential itch for some, it doesn't overly matter if they are right or not, that itch gets scratched either way and since the truth is inaccessible, you'll never know you're wrong. However, the main reason you want there to be a billion dollars in your account is so you can spend them and so the benefit cannot be realised if it's not true. God belief therefore has the powerful combination of meaning a lot to the believer and having few negative consequences if it turns out to be false. I think between the two of us we basically have the issue nailed down. Of course, this is all beside the point that the actual reasoning behind all of those beliefs, however (un)important and meaningful/meaningless they are, is still the same. Though I might slightly disagree with the "few negative consequences," but that really depends on the particular belief and how much people base their life decisions on it.
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 5, 2021 17:57:39 GMT
Enemies equate belief in a higher power to unicorns, etc. It’s their smear strategy. It's a legitimate tactic - if you make an argument that could also be used to endorse the existence of unicorns, it's a sign you need to refine your argument a bit. In this case, you need to say that you have greater reason to believe in God than the mere fact God can't be disproven. |
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Post by SciFive on Jan 5, 2021 17:58:21 GMT
God belief therefore has the powerful combination of meaning a lot to the believer and having few negative consequences if it turns out to be false. ————- Pascal’s wager.  |
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Post by movieliker on Jan 5, 2021 17:58:21 GMT
SciFive look at how childish this is; Eva Yojimbo said "4) Maybe "falsehood" is the wrong word, but you're essentially saying it's rational to believe something with no evidence or reason to think it's true other than that it makes you happy. Would you say any of these statements are rational:
"Believing I have a billion dollars in my bank account makes me happy. You can't prove I don't, so I'll choose to believe it."
"Believing I'm the reincarnated spirit of Jimi Hendrix makes me happy. You can't prove I'm not, so I'll choose to believe it."
"Believing in The Flying Spaghetti Monster makes me happy. You can't prove it doesn't exist, so I'll choose to believe it."
"Believing in Santa Clause makes me happy. You can't prove he doesn't exist, so I'll choose to believe it."
"Believing we're all living in the matrix makes me happy. You can't prove we aren't, so I'll choose to believe it."
"Believing Donald Trump actually won the 2020 election makes me happy. You can't prove he didn't, so I'll choose to believe it."
God is no different than any of these things.
The only difference between belief and knowledge is the confidence level. Knowledge is something you might be 99.99% certain is true, while you can believe anything that reaches a subjective threshold that you think is true. So how confident are you that God exists? 50%? 66%? 75%? 90%? And what evidence/reasoning did you use to get to that level, keeping in mind that "it makes me feel good" is not evidence that God exists?"Ha ha ha . . . It's like a mental temper tantrum.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 5, 2021 17:58:31 GMT
Not exaggerating at all. The anti-religion religion has no agenda other than trying to hurt billions of people for their thoughts. And billions of people voted you their defender, and shared their private thoughts with you, when exactly? What was that definition of 'religion' you have? I missed it last time... It's also rather comical that apparently what one guy says on a tiny message board that very few people are even aware of somehow has the power to hurt billions of people merely by saying they hold an irrational belief. Who knew I was that powerful? 
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 5, 2021 18:00:03 GMT
Ha ha ha . . . It's like a mental temper tantrum. So do you have an actual answer to my question or counter-argument to the point, or are you just going to join in with SciFive on the "ignore arguments and name-call" shtick?
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Post by movieliker on Jan 5, 2021 18:00:43 GMT
4) What falsehood do you think I believe in? I don't think you know the definition of the word belief. People believe in things they do not know. They know things they have proof exist. My "belief" in God is not the same thing as me "knowing" God exist. The existence of God is not a falsehood. There is no proof God doesn't exist. So one cannot say with provable evidence that God doesn't exist. 4) Maybe "falsehood" is the wrong word, but you're essentially saying it's rational to believe something with no evidence or reason to think it's true other than that it makes you happy. Would you say any of these statements are rational: "Believing I have a billion dollars in my bank account makes me happy. You can't prove I don't, so I'll choose to believe it." "Believing I'm the reincarnated spirit of Jimi Hendrix makes me happy. You can't prove I'm not, so I'll choose to believe it." "Believing in The Flying Spaghetti Monster makes me happy. You can't prove it doesn't exist, so I'll choose to believe it." "Believing in Santa Clause makes me happy. You can't prove he doesn't exist, so I'll choose to believe it." "Believing we're all living in the matrix makes me happy. You can't prove we aren't, so I'll choose to believe it." "Believing Donald Trump actually won the 2020 election makes me happy. You can't prove he didn't, so I'll choose to believe it." God is no different than any of these things. The only difference between belief and knowledge is the confidence level. Knowledge is something you might be 99.99% certain is true, while you can believe anything that reaches a subjective threshold that you think is true. So how confident are you that God exists? 50%? 66%? 75%? 90%? And what evidence/reasoning did you use to get to that level, keeping in mind that "it makes me feel good" is not evidence that God exists? If you don't mind me asking, how old are you Eva? Because this is really childish. |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 5, 2021 18:01:40 GMT
God belief therefore has the powerful combination of meaning a lot to the believer and having few negative consequences if it turns out to be false. ————- Pascal’s wager. Pascal's Wager would also apply to a God that rewards atheists for their non-belief, and since that God is just as likely as any other you're just as likely to be rewarded by being an atheist.
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Post by SciFive on Jan 5, 2021 18:01:45 GMT
Enemies equate belief in a higher power to unicorns, etc. It’s their smear strategy. It's a legitimate tactic - if you make an argument that could also be used to endorse the existence of unicorns, it's a sign you need to refine your argument a bit. In this case, you need to say that you have greater reason to believe in God than the mere fact God can't be disproven. Human beings have a history going back to the dawn of recorded history where most humans believed in a higher power. Nothing else compares to this. Using unicorn analogies (or whatever) are strictly employed as smearing tactics. Keep in mind, I am not asking ANYONE to believe in a higher power. I want the malicious smearing of billions of people to stop. Live and let live. |
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 5, 2021 18:03:31 GMT
4) Maybe "falsehood" is the wrong word, but you're essentially saying it's rational to believe something with no evidence or reason to think it's true other than that it makes you happy. Would you say any of these statements are rational: "Believing I have a billion dollars in my bank account makes me happy. You can't prove I don't, so I'll choose to believe it." "Believing I'm the reincarnated spirit of Jimi Hendrix makes me happy. You can't prove I'm not, so I'll choose to believe it." "Believing in The Flying Spaghetti Monster makes me happy. You can't prove it doesn't exist, so I'll choose to believe it." "Believing in Santa Clause makes me happy. You can't prove he doesn't exist, so I'll choose to believe it." "Believing we're all living in the matrix makes me happy. You can't prove we aren't, so I'll choose to believe it." "Believing Donald Trump actually won the 2020 election makes me happy. You can't prove he didn't, so I'll choose to believe it." God is no different than any of these things. The only difference between belief and knowledge is the confidence level. Knowledge is something you might be 99.99% certain is true, while you can believe anything that reaches a subjective threshold that you think is true. So how confident are you that God exists? 50%? 66%? 75%? 90%? And what evidence/reasoning did you use to get to that level, keeping in mind that "it makes me feel good" is not evidence that God exists? If you don't mind me asking, how old are you Eva? Because this is really childish. If it's so childish then it should be easy for you to answer the question and counter the argument about why believing in God because it makes you happy is any more rational than those other beliefs.
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Post by SciFive on Jan 5, 2021 18:04:30 GMT
Ironically, Judaism is the only Abrahamic religion that teaches great tolerance for atheists.
In Judaism, atheists can go to heaven if they are good people.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 5, 2021 18:05:19 GMT
It's a legitimate tactic - if you make an argument that could also be used to endorse the existence of unicorns, it's a sign you need to refine your argument a bit. In this case, you need to say that you have greater reason to believe in God than the mere fact God can't be disproven. Human beings have a history going back to the dawn of recorded history where most humans believed in a higher power.
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Post by SciFive on Jan 5, 2021 18:05:59 GMT
If it's so childish then it should be easy for you to answer the question and counter the argument about why believing in God because it makes you happy is any more rational than those other beliefs.
————-
Emo, it’s none of your business.
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