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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 19, 2021 22:34:12 GMT
75 years old. May be a nice guy but the Harold Baines of pitchers. Rest In Peace.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Jan 19, 2021 22:35:01 GMT
RIP
Oddly enough Dolly Parton is 75 years old today
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Post by tristramshandy on Jan 19, 2021 23:40:16 GMT
He's way more deserving than Baines. While his counting numbers were inflated due to his longevity (9th most batters faced in MLB history), his averages put him into the Hall of Fame. His WHIP is better than Greg Maddux, Dennis Eckersley, Rogers Clemens, Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Bob Gibson, Warren Spahn, etc.
We've now lost the 7th (Seaver), 8th (Sutton), 12th (Niekro), and 15th (Gibson) pitchers with the most strikeouts ever in the last five months.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 19, 2021 23:49:36 GMT
He's way more deserving than Baines. While his counting numbers were inflated due to his longevity (9th most batters faced in MLB history), his averages put him into the Hall of Fame. His WHIP is better than Greg Maddux, Dennis Eckersley, Rogers Clemens, Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Bob Gibson, Warren Spahn, etc. We've now lost the 7th (Seaver), 8th (Sutton), 12th (Niekro), and 15th (Gibson) pitchers with the most strikeouts ever in the last five months. His final numbers are hall-worthy. To me though it’s how he got those numbers. I’ll give you he was consistent, durable, pretty good even. But he shouldn’t be mentioned along with those other guys such as Pedro, Randy Johnson, Seaver, etc. He’s just not that kind of pitcher. Maybe there’s room enough for accumulators in the hall of fame if they accumulate enough stats. I don’t know though if I’d even say he’s a top 50 pitcher from the 50’s to the present. |
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jan 20, 2021 0:26:18 GMT
He's way more deserving than Baines. While his counting numbers were inflated due to his longevity (9th most batters faced in MLB history), his averages put him into the Hall of Fame. His WHIP is better than Greg Maddux, Dennis Eckersley, Rogers Clemens, Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Bob Gibson, Warren Spahn, etc. We've now lost the 7th (Seaver), 8th (Sutton), 12th (Niekro), and 15th (Gibson) pitchers with the most strikeouts ever in the last five months. His final numbers are hall-worthy. To me though it’s how he got those numbers. I’ll give you he was consistent, durable, pretty good even. But he shouldn’t be mentioned along with those other guys such as Pedro, Randy Johnson, Seaver, etc. He’s just not that kind of pitcher. Maybe there’s room enough for accumulators in the hall of fame if they accumulate enough stats. I don’t know though if I’d even say he’s a top 50 pitcher from the 50’s to the present. All true and while I don’t disagree, to add on to what tristam said, Sutton also passed the 300 wins and 3,000 K thresholds. Those are basically guaranteed tickets to enshrinement, and certainly were when he was elected.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 20, 2021 0:51:55 GMT
His final numbers are hall-worthy. To me though it’s how he got those numbers. I’ll give you he was consistent, durable, pretty good even. But he shouldn’t be mentioned along with those other guys such as Pedro, Randy Johnson, Seaver, etc. He’s just not that kind of pitcher. Maybe there’s room enough for accumulators in the hall of fame if they accumulate enough stats. I don’t know though if I’d even say he’s a top 50 pitcher from the 50’s to the present. All true and while I don’t disagree, to add on to what tristam said, Sutton also passed the 300 wins and 3,000 K thresholds. Those are basically guaranteed tickets to enshrinement, and certainly were when he was elected. Let’s look deeper into those numbers. He pitched from 1966-1988. While he had a remarkably consistent career, he exceeded 20 wins one time. He made 4 all star games and received Cy Young votes in 5 seasons. All within a 6 season span of that long career. And even in that 6 year span from 1972-1977 he didn’t lead the league in anything other than games played and WHIP a few times. And the Dodgers were good for much of that time. In no way I’m saying he was bad or even average. He was pretty good. He just happened to be good enough for long enough. He’s like a running back who ran for 650 yards a season with 6 touchdown each year and stayed healthy for 15 years. Nice career but you don’t exactly envision Barry Sanders or Walter Payton. |
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Post by NJtoTX on Jan 20, 2021 1:14:18 GMT
Only Koufax and Osteen left from the 1965 Dodgers pitching staff, not counting the 10 innings pitched by a young Mike Kekich.
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jan 20, 2021 1:25:30 GMT
All true and while I don’t disagree, to add on to what tristam said, Sutton also passed the 300 wins and 3,000 K thresholds. Those are basically guaranteed tickets to enshrinement, and certainly were when he was elected. Let’s look deeper into those numbers. He pitched from 1966-1988. While he had a remarkably consistent career, he exceeded 20 wins one time. He made 4 all star games and received Cy Young votes in 5 seasons. All within a 6 season span of that long career. And even in that 6 year span from 1972-1977 he didn’t lead the league in anything other than games played and WHIP a few times. And the Dodgers were good for much of that time. In no way I’m saying he was bad or even average. He was pretty good. He just happened to be good enough for long enough. He’s like a running back who ran for 650 yards a season with 6 touchdown each year and stayed healthy for 15 years. Nice career but you don’t exactly envision Barry Sanders or Walter Payton. Oh I’m with you man. But those two benchmarks would get Steve Trachsel in if he hit them, even if it took him 40 years.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 20, 2021 1:31:41 GMT
Let’s look deeper into those numbers. He pitched from 1966-1988. While he had a remarkably consistent career, he exceeded 20 wins one time. He made 4 all star games and received Cy Young votes in 5 seasons. All within a 6 season span of that long career. And even in that 6 year span from 1972-1977 he didn’t lead the league in anything other than games played and WHIP a few times. And the Dodgers were good for much of that time. In no way I’m saying he was bad or even average. He was pretty good. He just happened to be good enough for long enough. He’s like a running back who ran for 650 yards a season with 6 touchdown each year and stayed healthy for 15 years. Nice career but you don’t exactly envision Barry Sanders or Walter Payton. Oh I’m with you man. But those two benchmarks would get Steve Trachsel in if he hit them, even if it took him 40 years. The tl/dr version for me is I value dominance over longevity. If one has both, then fantastic. To me that’s Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Willie Mays, the elite of the elite. Dominance over a shorter career, that’s Halladay, Puckett, Koufax. But just longevity without dominance? That’s Sutton, Blyleven and Baines. |
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Post by tristramshandy on Jan 20, 2021 1:46:47 GMT
He's way more deserving than Baines. While his counting numbers were inflated due to his longevity (9th most batters faced in MLB history), his averages put him into the Hall of Fame. His WHIP is better than Greg Maddux, Dennis Eckersley, Rogers Clemens, Randy Johnson, John Smoltz, Jim Palmer, Gaylord Perry, Bob Gibson, Warren Spahn, etc. We've now lost the 7th (Seaver), 8th (Sutton), 12th (Niekro), and 15th (Gibson) pitchers with the most strikeouts ever in the last five months. His final numbers are hall-worthy. To me though it’s how he got those numbers. I’ll give you he was consistent, durable, pretty good even. But he shouldn’t be mentioned along with those other guys such as Pedro, Randy Johnson, Seaver, etc. He’s just not that kind of pitcher. Maybe there’s room enough for accumulators in the hall of fame if they accumulate enough stats. I don’t know though if I’d even say he’s a top 50 pitcher from the 50’s to the present. With some of those years, he'd be getting Cy Young votes if they happened today. In 1980 he lead the league in ERA and WHIP and his ERA+ was one point behind league leader Steve Carlton and yet he didn't get a Cy Young vote nor an All-Star bid because he only had 13 wins. His best Cy Young finish was 3rd in the year he had 21 wins, but his ERA was better than that year's nine times. He's that type of Hall of Fame recipient, though. The greatest example of that will be Frank Gore. He has 16,000 yards rushing, more than anyone not named Emmitt or Walter. But outside of his second year in the league, he never broke 1220 yards rushing in a season. He only got ten touchdowns once. Never did I think he was the third best running back in the league for any one year, let alone the third best all-time. But can you not have the guy with the third highest total of rushing yards in the history of a 100-year-old league in the Hall of Fame?
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 20, 2021 2:06:38 GMT
His final numbers are hall-worthy. To me though it’s how he got those numbers. I’ll give you he was consistent, durable, pretty good even. But he shouldn’t be mentioned along with those other guys such as Pedro, Randy Johnson, Seaver, etc. He’s just not that kind of pitcher. Maybe there’s room enough for accumulators in the hall of fame if they accumulate enough stats. I don’t know though if I’d even say he’s a top 50 pitcher from the 50’s to the present. With some of those years, he'd be getting Cy Young votes if they happened today. In 1980 he lead the league in ERA and WHIP and his ERA+ was one point behind league leader Steve Carlton and yet he didn't get a Cy Young vote nor an All-Star bid because he only had 13 wins. His best Cy Young finish was 3rd in the year he had 21 wins, but his ERA was better than that year's nine times. He's that type of Hall of Fame recipient, though. The greatest example of that will be Frank Gore. He has 16,000 yards rushing, more than anyone not named Emmitt or Walter. But outside of his second year in the league, he never broke 1220 yards rushing in a season. He only got ten touchdowns once. Never did I think he was the third best running back in the league for any one year, let alone the third best all-time. But can you not have the guy with the third highest total of rushing yards in the history of a 100-year-old league in the Hall of Fame? In 1980 there were 34(!) pitchers that season with more wins than Sutton. Now I don’t think wins are the be-all end-all pitching stat but it counts for something. Gore is a good comparison. He’s not truly great like Sanders or Tomlinson. But he’s pretty good and consistent and has been healthy. Yo me though the NFL HOF isn’t as sacred as MLB’s so I care less about that. |
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Post by tristramshandy on Jan 20, 2021 2:26:33 GMT
With some of those years, he'd be getting Cy Young votes if they happened today. In 1980 he lead the league in ERA and WHIP and his ERA+ was one point behind league leader Steve Carlton and yet he didn't get a Cy Young vote nor an All-Star bid because he only had 13 wins. His best Cy Young finish was 3rd in the year he had 21 wins, but his ERA was better than that year's nine times. He's that type of Hall of Fame recipient, though. The greatest example of that will be Frank Gore. He has 16,000 yards rushing, more than anyone not named Emmitt or Walter. But outside of his second year in the league, he never broke 1220 yards rushing in a season. He only got ten touchdowns once. Never did I think he was the third best running back in the league for any one year, let alone the third best all-time. But can you not have the guy with the third highest total of rushing yards in the history of a 100-year-old league in the Hall of Fame? In 1980 there were 34(!) pitchers that season with more wins than Sutton. Now I don’t think wins are the be-all end-all pitching stat but it counts for something. Gore is a good comparison. He’s not truly great like Sanders or Tomlinson. But he’s pretty good and consistent and has been healthy. Yo me though the NFL HOF isn’t as sacred as MLB’s so I care less about that. But by 2010 Felix Hernandez was winning the Cy Young with 13 wins, even though CC Sabathia had 21. Clay Bulcholtz had 17 wins and an ERA that was just 0.06 higher than Hernandez's, and they still gave it to Felix. Even if Sutton didn't win it in 1980, he'd have more than zero votes, which is what he got. Troglodytes.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 20, 2021 2:39:14 GMT
In 1980 there were 34(!) pitchers that season with more wins than Sutton. Now I don’t think wins are the be-all end-all pitching stat but it counts for something. Gore is a good comparison. He’s not truly great like Sanders or Tomlinson. But he’s pretty good and consistent and has been healthy. Yo me though the NFL HOF isn’t as sacred as MLB’s so I care less about that. But by 2010 Felix Hernandez was winning the Cy Young with 13 wins, even though CC Sabathia had 21. Clay Bulcholtz had 17 wins and an ERA that was just 0.06 higher than Hernandez's, and they still gave it to Felix. Even if Sutton didn't win it in 1980, he'd have more than zero votes, which is what he got. Troglodytes. But it’s not like there were ten other 20 game winners besides Sabathia. Sutton didn’t get any votes because he didn’t deserve any. |
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Post by tristramshandy on Jan 20, 2021 4:00:00 GMT
But by 2010 Felix Hernandez was winning the Cy Young with 13 wins, even though CC Sabathia had 21. Clay Bulcholtz had 17 wins and an ERA that was just 0.06 higher than Hernandez's, and they still gave it to Felix. Even if Sutton didn't win it in 1980, he'd have more than zero votes, which is what he got. Troglodytes. But it’s not like there were ten other 20 game winners besides Sabathia. Sutton didn’t get any votes because he didn’t deserve any. He did. You can't control run support. Of 48 qualified NL pitchers in 1980, Sutton was 43rd in run support. Jim Bibby had 19 wins that year; Joe Niekro had 20; Dick Ruthven 17. None of them were in the top ten of National League ERA or WHIP. But they were 1st, 2nd, and 7th in run support. Bibby was 3rd in Cy Young voting that year, Niekro was 4th. They didn't do their job better than Sutton did - - their teams scored more runs for them. Sutton had 8 no decisions or losses when he gave up one run in 1980. In only three out of 31 games did he give up more than 3 runs. Niekro won all 8 games that he gave up one run in 1980. He gave up more than 3 runs in 14 of his 37 starts. So why is Niekro getting Cy Young votes other than voters back then put all of their weight in a stat that is completely random?
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Post by permutojoe on Jan 20, 2021 4:18:31 GMT
Don't remember him as a player but he was a good announcer for the Braves. RIP
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Post by SportsFan19 on Jan 20, 2021 4:21:27 GMT
Don't remember him as a player but he was a good announcer for the Braves. RIP That's how I remember him too. Him and Skip Carrey, both gone (and Skip's father, too). I listened to many a games with those voices back in the day.
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Post by permutojoe on Jan 20, 2021 4:23:46 GMT
Don't remember him as a player but he was a good announcer for the Braves. RIP That's how I remember him too. Him and Skip Carrey, both gone (and Skip's father, too). I listened to many a games with those voices back in the day. I always enjoyed those Braves announcers back in the Chipper Jones days even though I hated how good the actual team was.
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Post by nutsberryfarm 🏜 on Jan 20, 2021 4:28:39 GMT
His final numbers are hall-worthy. To me though it’s how he got those numbers. I’ll give you he was consistent, durable, pretty good even. But he shouldn’t be mentioned along with those other guys such as Pedro, Randy Johnson, Seaver, etc. He’s just not that kind of pitcher. Maybe there’s room enough for accumulators in the hall of fame if they accumulate enough stats. I don’t know though if I’d even say he’s a top 50 pitcher from the 50’s to the present. All true and while I don’t disagree, to add on to what tristam said, Sutton also passed the 300 wins and 3,000 K thresholds. Those are basically guaranteed tickets to enshrinement, and certainly were when he was elected. and he put soul glo in his hair! 
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Post by Rufus-T on Jan 20, 2021 4:59:06 GMT
It was a bit questionable to me when he was voted to HOF. At least he won over 300 games and struck out over 3,500. Played over 20 years. He is legit in today's standard. Too bad he debuted a year late and didn't stay with the Dodgers long enough to get a ring, or maybe he did get one for the 1965 team. RIP.
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Post by politicidal on Jan 20, 2021 16:25:03 GMT
R.I.P.
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