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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 3:07:59 GMT
Didn't people used to say that about Costner films?
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Post by brownstones on Mar 1, 2017 3:26:44 GMT
Catwoman was in the works for a long time. The earliest script I've seen is from Daniel Waters (Batman Returns screenwriter) and features the same Selina from BR. Michelle didn't reprise her role due to disliking the costume and Burton didn't want to do it without her so it got rewrote. How exactly we got to the 2004 bastardization, I don't know, but it is unlike any version of Catwoman I've ever seen. probably went from writer to write to writer to writer to writer, like a public 100 million dollar game of telephone.
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Post by flasuss on Mar 1, 2017 4:32:12 GMT
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 1, 2017 6:53:45 GMT
The "problem" (if you can call it that) with Marvel is that they simply play it safe enough to where it's HARD to "hate" their movies. They follow a four-quadrant formula and hire people who are competent enough to execute their vision. That's why, at worst, their movies are bland instead of bad. They simply don't take enough CREATIVE risks that would cause the general consensus to be "this is a bad movie." The closest they got to that was probably in IM3, when they decided to completely change who The Mandarin actually was. A lot of people didn't like that creative decision (myself included). But it still ended up "working" because the movie featured the charm of RDJ and the standard Marvel "feel-good" tone. Yep. Consequently, all of my non-comic book-reading friends adore MCU flicks while I find it tiresome just to sit through them once.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 1, 2017 16:52:28 GMT
The "problem" (if you can call it that) with Marvel is that they simply play it safe enough to where it's HARD to "hate" their movies. They follow a four-quadrant formula and hire people who are competent enough to execute their vision. That's why, at worst, their movies are bland instead of bad. They simply don't take enough CREATIVE risks that would cause the general consensus to be "this is a bad movie." The closest they got to that was probably in IM3, when they decided to completely change who The Mandarin actually was. A lot of people didn't like that creative decision (myself included). But it still ended up "working" because the movie featured the charm of RDJ and the standard Marvel "feel-good" tone. Yep. Consequently, all of my non-comic book-reading friends adore MCU flicks while I find it tiresome just to sit through them once. To each their own. MCU still take more risks than DC though.
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Post by Times Up on Mar 1, 2017 17:14:27 GMT
I think DC knocked it out of the park with Nolan's Batman films, but it is just that: Batman. Batman alone is in no way shape or form an extended DC universe. They decided not to make an opportunity to crossover with Singer's "Superman Returns" (I didn't like the movie, but a BvS with those 2 may have been good, or great.) GL sucked and the "Dark Knight Returns" elements that showed up in "The Dark Knight Rises" again chose to stick with Batman characters only.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 1, 2017 17:26:24 GMT
Yep. Consequently, all of my non-comic book-reading friends adore MCU flicks while I find it tiresome just to sit through them once. To each their own. MCU still take more risks than DC though. Nah, they're the most conservative franchise I've ever seen. Transformers takes bigger risks than MCU.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 1, 2017 17:51:20 GMT
Agreed. I honestly don't understand what was so difficult about the original concept that they had to change it to Egyptian god cats resurrecting dead women. That's because Catwoman was based on Batman Returns and not the actual comic.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 1, 2017 18:07:53 GMT
Actually, WeirdRaptor, it's the opposite. You don't know the difference between a creative risk and a commercial risk. Let's look at two different films, just to illustrate. Guardians of the Galaxy was a COMMERCIAL risk, but not a creative one. Because it was an unknown property, it wasn't guaranteed to make as much money as it did (or any money at all). It was COMMERCIALLY risky. But it was also fully injected with the Marvel formula, so it was unlikely to be PANNED by anyone who was just looking to have a fun time at the movies. It was funny and bright and had some decent action. And they pretty much just adapted the comics as they are. Nothing CREATIVELY risky about it at all. Conversely, Batman v Superman was a CREATIVE risk, but not a commercial one. As a movie starring Batman and Superman, it was GUARANTEED to make a ton of money (which it did, despite not living up to expectations). It was CREATIVELY risky though because they took some "liberties" with the characters that people didn't necessarily want or expect. They let Batman kill. They showed a world that wasn't in love with Superman, and a Superman that was questing if he was even any good (as a force in the world). These moves were creatively risky, as they go against the grain of what is "expected" of those characters. Plus, they had to try and lay the foundation for a big team-up movie when this was only the second movie in the series. Another creative risk. But commercial? Not risky. Changing those characters the way they did (from the comics and animated series) wasn't risky. It was stupid. They tried to one up the Marvel movies (who's heroes do kill) by trying to get their heroes to kill also. And Batman has killed in past movies. With a smile on his face.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 1, 2017 18:16:47 GMT
To each their own. MCU still take more risks than DC though. Nah, they're the most conservative franchise I've ever seen. Transformers takes bigger risks than MCU. Here's an earlier post I made that lists some of the risks that the MCU took. And even though this is an incomplete list, this is already way more than DC ever risked with their movies: "Fortunately, the MCU keeps changing what it's doing. Though the overall tone and feel of the movies are pretty consistent, if you paid any attention to the movies you'd see that each phase changes the overall theme and structure of the movies. Phase 1 was about investing movies in B/C list characters whom they had to change quite a bit to fit the movies. Ironman was never such a wisecracking smart mouth as they made him to be. They cast an older, washed-up actor for the role. They cast an unknown for Thor and changed Thor's origin story (no more Donald Blake) and changed Thor and his world (smaller frost giants, rainbow bridge became a portal, Jane Foster a scientist) to fit in the movie verse. These are both creative and commercial risks. Then assembling them into the Avengers was something never been done before, never been tried. Definitely a creative risk. Phase 2 saw SHIELD becoming Hydra, showed Captain America becoming a fugitive. Made Mandarin into a joke. Changed the origin and attitude of Ultron. Cast a talking raccoon and a walking tree into a movie. You've got to be retarded to not consider those creative risks. Phase 3 kicked off with a movie that made Captain America completely go rogue, while Tony Stark became the law-abiding hero. That's a 180 degree turn of personality for both. It starred a movie where the main protagonists and antagonists were heroes from the same team, and the only villain relegated to just an enabler. I don't recall any other movie ever doing that before. And from the looks of things, Phase 3 will only continue to get more creative. Taking the Planet Hulk storyline and changing it to a Thor movie? The massive Infinity Wars movie? There are a few safer movies from the MCU here and there. Ant-man, Thor TDW, CATFA, even Dr. Strange. Note that I said "safer" and not "safe", since these movies still did take risks, just not as much as the others I mentioned above. But other than that, you'd have to be blind, deaf and dumb to actually think the MCU don't take risks, both creative and commercial."
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 1, 2017 18:18:31 GMT
To each their own. MCU still take more risks than DC though. Nah, they're the most conservative franchise I've ever seen. Transformers takes bigger risks than MCU. The risks in the Transformers movies are the designs of the bots. They can kill off any of them and bring them back if they wanted because they are robots.
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Post by Times Up on Mar 1, 2017 19:15:52 GMT
Agreed. I honestly don't understand what was so difficult about the original concept that they had to change it to Egyptian god cats resurrecting dead women. That's because Catwoman was based on Batman Returns and not the actual comic. Batman Returns did not have anything to do with Egypt specifically. It was actually based upon the Catwoman graphic novel "Her Sister's Keeper". Catwoman, the 2004 film, is not based upon any comic books that I am aware of.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 1, 2017 20:32:45 GMT
That's because Catwoman was based on Batman Returns and not the actual comic. Batman Returns did not have anything to do with Egypt specifically. It was actually based upon the Catwoman graphic novel "Her Sister's Keeper". Catwoman, the 2004 film, is not based upon any comic books that I am aware of. What I mean is that they took the Selina Kyle dying and being resurrected by cats thing and gave a reason for it. They even show Catwomen of the past including Pfeiffer's.
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Post by Times Up on Mar 1, 2017 21:06:46 GMT
Batman Returns did not have anything to do with Egypt specifically. It was actually based upon the Catwoman graphic novel "Her Sister's Keeper". Catwoman, the 2004 film, is not based upon any comic books that I am aware of. What I mean is that they took the Selina Kyle dying and being resurrected by cats thing and gave a reason for it. They even show Catwomen of the past including Pfeiffer's. That's right. Egypt is exclusive to the 2004 film.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 21:10:36 GMT
To each their own. MCU still take more risks than DC though. Nah, they're the most conservative franchise I've ever seen. Transformers takes bigger risks than MCU.  Yeah, sure, keep telling yourself that.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 1, 2017 22:59:40 GMT
To each their own. MCU still take more risks than DC though. Nah, they're the most conservative franchise I've ever seen. Transformers takes bigger risks than MCU. How? What is so "Non-Risk" about the MCU? This is starting to sound like the whole "formula" thing again. MCU is accused of having a formula...and no one can describe it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 23:29:16 GMT
Nah, they're the most conservative franchise I've ever seen. Transformers takes bigger risks than MCU. How? What is so "Non-Risk" about the MCU? This is starting to sound like the whole "formula" thing again. MCU is accused of having a formula...and no one can describe it. Apparently, making films with the intention of having those films be liked by general audiences is "playing it safe and not being creative enough." Apparently, all filmmakers must be like Zack Snyder, who frankly doesn't give a damn about his audience (even though it is only by their graces he has a job).
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 2, 2017 0:39:07 GMT
Nah, they're the most conservative franchise I've ever seen. Transformers takes bigger risks than MCU. How? What is so "Non-Risk" about the MCU? This is starting to sound like the whole "formula" thing again. MCU is accused of having a formula...and no one can describe it. The MCU makes successful movies, and to haters that's the "formula". Doesn't matter that each movie has differences from the rest, the fact that they're all fun, enjoyable and successful must mean they follow the same formula.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2017 1:15:13 GMT
How? What is so "Non-Risk" about the MCU? This is starting to sound like the whole "formula" thing again. MCU is accused of having a formula...and no one can describe it. The MCU makes successful movies, and to haters that's the "formula". Doesn't matter that each movie has differences from the rest, the fact that they're all fun, enjoyable and successful must mean they follow the same formula. That, and the films don't pride themselves are being so edgy someone might just die if they cut themselves on it.
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Post by Ecstasy on Mar 2, 2017 1:36:46 GMT
How? What is so "Non-Risk" about the MCU? This is starting to sound like the whole "formula" thing again. MCU is accused of having a formula...and no one can describe it. The MCU makes successful movies, and to haters that's the "formula". Doesn't matter that each movie has differences from the rest, the fact that they're all fun, enjoyable and successful must mean they follow the same formula. With the exception of Incredible Hulk.
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