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Post by thisguy4000 on Feb 6, 2021 3:17:06 GMT
In all honesty, out of all the talking points when it comes to The Last Jedi, this is probably the weakest one. When you get right down to it, TLJ and TESB are actually pretty similar. - Both movies involve the heroes being on the run from the bad guys after an attack on their base
- Both movies involve the main protagonist seeking training from a reluctant Jedi hermit
- Both movies have a side story where the supporting characters go on a mission to a luxurious planet, and eventually get betrayed by a new character
- Both movies have a trippy cave sequence that hints at an upcoming twist
- Both movies have the villain revealing an uncomfortable revelation about the heroes’ lineage
- Both movies have a battle on a white planet involving AT-AT walkers
- Both movies end on a bittersweet note, where the heroes technically lose, but are still determined to fight another day
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 6, 2021 4:06:10 GMT
It follows those beats (along with ones from ROTJ) while turning them on their heads. We're programmed to think Rey is going to be related to someone important, she's not. We reckon DJ to be another roguish skamp who joins the fight, he doesn't. Yoda pretended to be reluctant as a test, Luke is genuinely reluctant. It uses familiarity to create surprise, deconstruct the mythos, and build on themes. That's what people mean when they say TLJ is not a rehash, whereas TFA and TRoS just copy things without saying or doing anything new with them.
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Post by TutuAnimationPrincess on Feb 6, 2021 4:10:57 GMT
Of course it's not, The Empire Strikes Back was directed by what was probably the character directer the series ever had. The Last Jedi was directed by someone more concerned with pissing people off and sparking controversy than directing an actual good movie.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Feb 9, 2021 3:00:17 GMT
It follows those beats (along with ones from ROTJ) while turning them on their heads. We're programmed to think Rey is going to be related to someone important, she's not. We reckon DJ to be another roguish skamp who joins the fight, he doesn't. Yoda pretended to be reluctant as a test, Luke is genuinely reluctant. It uses familiarity to create surprise, deconstruct the mythos, and build on themes. That's what people mean when they say TLJ is not a rehash, whereas TFA and TRoS just copy things without saying or doing anything new with them. I would argue that the subversions in TLJ don’t really do much to change the outcome. Yes, DJ is different from Lando in the sense that he feels no guilt in doing what he does, but he still serves the same purpose in the narrative. Yes, Rey not being related to anyone isn’t the same as Vader being Luke’s father, but the movie still tries to frame it as a big twist that she’s devastated by. Ultimately, I can acknowledge that Rian Johnson tried to present something challenging and thought provoking, but I don’t think his attempts at doing so were really anything mind-blowing, nor did they do much to shake off the idea that TLJ is just another Star Wars movie. To me, the attempts TLJ made at “subverting our expectations” was just window dressing. To be fair to RJ though, J.J. Abrams didn’t leave a ton of room for TLJ to truly do something different.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Feb 9, 2021 3:31:00 GMT
It follows those beats (along with ones from ROTJ) while turning them on their heads. We're programmed to think Rey is going to be related to someone important, she's not. We reckon DJ to be another roguish skamp who joins the fight, he doesn't. Yoda pretended to be reluctant as a test, Luke is genuinely reluctant. It uses familiarity to create surprise, deconstruct the mythos, and build on themes. That's what people mean when they say TLJ is not a rehash, whereas TFA and TRoS just copy things without saying or doing anything new with them. I would argue that the subversions in TLJ don’t really do much to change the outcome. Yes, DJ is different from Lando in the sense that he feels no guilt in doing what he does, but he still serves the same purpose in the narrative. Yes, Rey not being related to anyone isn’t the same as Vader being Luke’s father, but the movie still tries to frame it as a big twist that she’s devastated by. Ultimately, I can acknowledge that Rian Johnson tried to present something challenging and thought provoking, but I don’t think his attempts at doing so were really anything mind-blowing, nor did they do much to shake off the idea that TLJ is just another Star Wars movie. To me, the attempts TLJ made at “subverting our expectations” was just window dressing. To be fair to RJ though, J.J. Abrams didn’t leave a ton of room for TLJ to truly do something different. I feel like a lot of your stand is being informed by hindsight. Making the conflicted underling with good in him kill the Big Bad and take over the empire is a radical departure for the series. The hero not having a clear path and having to form their own is also new with fresh possibilities. TLJ was walking so Episode IX could run. The problem is that IX chose not to. If those things weren't big deals, why fall back on Rey being related to a badass? Why resurrect a long dead character to fill the hole left by the character that was made to fill their hole in the first place? Btw, I don't think Rian or anyone who likes the film is trying to say it's not another Star Wars movie. In fact, I think we've spent the better part of three years fighting the claim that it isn't, that it doesn't fit the tone or the themes of the series, etc. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Feb 9, 2021 3:51:12 GMT
I would argue that the subversions in TLJ don’t really do much to change the outcome. Yes, DJ is different from Lando in the sense that he feels no guilt in doing what he does, but he still serves the same purpose in the narrative. Yes, Rey not being related to anyone isn’t the same as Vader being Luke’s father, but the movie still tries to frame it as a big twist that she’s devastated by. Ultimately, I can acknowledge that Rian Johnson tried to present something challenging and thought provoking, but I don’t think his attempts at doing so were really anything mind-blowing, nor did they do much to shake off the idea that TLJ is just another Star Wars movie. To me, the attempts TLJ made at “subverting our expectations” was just window dressing. To be fair to RJ though, J.J. Abrams didn’t leave a ton of room for TLJ to truly do something different. I feel like a lot of your stand is being informed by hindsight. Making the conflicted underling with good in him kill the Big Bad and take over the empire is a radical departure for the series. The hero not having a clear path and having to form their own is also new with fresh possibilities. TLJ was walking so Episode IX could run. The problem is that IX chose not to. If those things weren't big deals, why fall back on Rey being related to a badass? Why resurrect a long dead character to fill the hole left by the character that was made to fill their hole in the first place? Btw, I don't think Rian or anyone who likes the film is trying to say it's not another Star Wars movie. In fact, I think we've spent the better part of three years fighting the claim that it isn't, that it doesn't fit the tone or the themes of the series, etc. For what it’s worth, I don’t think TLJ deserved the kind of backlash it received. I even liked the movie well enough when I first saw it, mainly because I was never invested in any of J.J. Abrams’ mystery boxes to begin with. It’s not an awful movie or anything. I sort of get what RJ was going for. It just doesn’t hold up for me personally. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a pretty meh movie that somehow manages to be both overrated and over-hated. Still, I realize that I’m apparently in the minority. For whatever reason, TLJ is probably the most impactful Star Wars film of the Disney era, and the fact that TRoS went out of its way to backtrack on the movie’s decisions is a testament to how much of an impression it left.
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Post by ck100 on Feb 9, 2021 4:07:36 GMT
There are similarities, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's a rehash. I mean something like TFA being a rehash of A New Hope I can see, but it's less so for TLJ and TESP in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2021 5:56:07 GMT
In all honesty, out of all the talking points when it comes to The Last Jedi, this is probably the weakest one. When you get right down to it, TLJ and TESB are actually pretty similar. - Both movies involve the heroes being on the run from the bad guys after an attack on their base
- Both movies involve the main protagonist seeking training from a reluctant Jedi hermit
- Both movies have a side story where the supporting characters go on a mission to a luxurious planet, and eventually get betrayed by a new character
- Both movies have a trippy cave sequence that hints at an upcoming twist
- Both movies have the villain revealing an uncomfortable revelation about the heroes’ lineage
- Both movies have a battle on a white planet involving AT-AT walkers
- Both movies end on a bittersweet note, where the heroes technically lose, but are still determined to fight another day
This is why I don’t understand the praise it gets for being “bold”. It’s not. And every so called bold move is just a subversion of our expectations for no other reason than to subvert. Luke learned he was Vader’s son so Rey learns that she... has normal parents. Yet, Rey never actually believed or hoped that her parents were special so it means nothing in the context of the story. It’s just meta bullshit that has no weight or purpose.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Feb 10, 2021 18:26:01 GMT
When you get right down to it, TLJ and TESB are actually pretty similar. This is why I don’t understand the praise it gets for being “bold”. It’s not.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2021 18:54:08 GMT
This is why I don’t understand the praise it gets for being “bold”. It’s not. I like the scene where crazy Yoda burns down a church!
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Feb 10, 2021 20:33:21 GMT
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