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Post by hobowar on Feb 9, 2021 20:36:11 GMT
While he's dancing with Peggy, Bucky is still out there somewhere as a frozen murder machine.
Do you think Cap would have done something about that?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2021 22:19:44 GMT
I’m still not honestly sure how the time travel logic works in End Game. How did Cap show up as an old man? And if he’s in the same timeline then why don’t his actions change anything?
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Post by thisguy4000 on Feb 12, 2021 23:20:10 GMT
I’m still not honestly sure how the time travel logic works in End Game. How did Cap show up as an old man? And if he’s in the same timeline then why don’t his actions change anything? The funny thing is that the Russos and the screenwriters each have differing explanations on what happened. The Russos said that Steve simply lived with Peggy in an alternate timeline, and then returned to the main timeline after Peggy died, while the screenwriters claim that it was part of a stable time loop, and that the old Steve Rogers had been living in the main MCU timeline all along, and simply kept himself a secret until that moment. I much prefer the explanation from the Russos, but it doesn’t explain why Steve randomly appears on a bench, rather than teleporting back to the platform.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 2:13:33 GMT
I’m still not honestly sure how the time travel logic works in End Game. How did Cap show up as an old man? And if he’s in the same timeline then why don’t his actions change anything? The funny thing is that the Russos and the screenwriters each have differing explanations on what happened. The Russos said that Steve simply lived with Peggy in an alternate timeline, and then returned to the main timeline after Peggy died, while the screenwriters claim that it was part of a stable time loop, and that the old Steve Rogers had been living in the main MCU timeline all along, and simply kept himself a secret until that moment. I much prefer the explanation from the Russos, but it doesn’t explain why Steve randomly appears on a bench, rather than teleporting back to the platform. I would prefer that too but appearing on the bench does kind of kill the first explanation. It really does seem like he lived his life and then walked up when that particular day rolled around. I guess it’s pretty much impossible to do a time travel stories without plot holes so I just accept it. But it really makes no sense.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Feb 13, 2021 2:18:10 GMT
The funny thing is that the Russos and the screenwriters each have differing explanations on what happened. The Russos said that Steve simply lived with Peggy in an alternate timeline, and then returned to the main timeline after Peggy died, while the screenwriters claim that it was part of a stable time loop, and that the old Steve Rogers had been living in the main MCU timeline all along, and simply kept himself a secret until that moment. I much prefer the explanation from the Russos, but it doesn’t explain why Steve randomly appears on a bench, rather than teleporting back to the platform. I would prefer that too but appearing on the bench does kind of kill the first explanation. It really does seem like he lived his life and then walked up when that particular day rolled around. I guess it’s pretty much impossible to do a time travel stories without plot holes so I just accept it. But it really makes no sense. The thing I take issue with is that it didn’t have to be like that. I don’t see why they couldn’t have just had an old Steve Rogers appear on the platform. They could do that and still make it emotional.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 2:27:19 GMT
I would prefer that too but appearing on the bench does kind of kill the first explanation. It really does seem like he lived his life and then walked up when that particular day rolled around. I guess it’s pretty much impossible to do a time travel stories without plot holes so I just accept it. But it really makes no sense. The thing I take issue with is that it didn’t have to be like that. I don’t see why they couldn’t have just had an old Steve Rogers appear on the platform. They could do that and still make it emotional. That’s true. The bench is more dramatic, but it’s not worth creating a plot hole. Of course, I still don’t think they properly explained what causes a divergent time line. The Ancient One makes it sound as though ONLY taking a stone will do it. But what if someone went back and meddled with world events? If that A) Doesn’t change the present and B) Doesn’t create a new timeline, then how exactly does this work?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Feb 13, 2021 13:27:28 GMT
While he's dancing with Peggy, Bucky is still out there somewhere as a frozen murder machine. Do you think Cap would have done something about that? My continuing belief is that Steve did stay in the original timeline, and as such he couldn’t alter anything significant. All that would do would cause another split timeline, not save anybody. Staying there wouldn’t be enough to shift the timeline, but major events like saving Bucky or correcting other terrible events would.
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Post by Power Ranger on Feb 13, 2021 14:38:50 GMT
While he's dancing with Peggy, Bucky is still out there somewhere as a frozen murder machine. Do you think Cap would have done something about that? My continuing belief is that Steve did stay in the original timeline, and as such he couldn’t alter anything significant. All that would do would cause another split timeline, not save anybody. Staying there wouldn’t be enough to shift the timeline, but major events like saving Bucky or correcting other terrible events would. He could have stayed in the main timeline and scored even more tail. Because he helped defeat Thanos, which would make him a huge pussy magnet. So he’s not too bright.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2021 19:07:09 GMT
While he's dancing with Peggy, Bucky is still out there somewhere as a frozen murder machine. Do you think Cap would have done something about that? My continuing belief is that Steve did stay in the original timeline, and as such he couldn’t alter anything significant. All that would do would cause another split timeline, not save anybody. Staying there wouldn’t be enough to shift the timeline, but major events like saving Bucky or correcting other terrible events would. This is probably the best explanation, I think. It fits the rules and provides good explanation for why Steve didn’t change anything- If he did and it created a new timeline, then technically he wouldn’t really be changing anything because the “original” Bucky would remain unsaved in the original timeline. It would be no better than creating a fantasy world apart from the “real” timeline. It still raises the question though of how he stayed so incognito. And even if he lived in Peggy’s basement for fifty years he still changed things because she obviously wouldn’t have gotten married her original husband, right? So that’s a pretty big butterfly effect right there. How did that not create a new timeline? ?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Feb 13, 2021 22:29:47 GMT
My continuing belief is that Steve did stay in the original timeline, and as such he couldn’t alter anything significant. All that would do would cause another split timeline, not save anybody. Staying there wouldn’t be enough to shift the timeline, but major events like saving Bucky or correcting other terrible events would. This is probably the best explanation, I think. It fits the rules and provides good explanation for why Steve didn’t change anything- If he did and it created a new timeline, then technically he wouldn’t really be changing anything because the “original” Bucky would remain unsaved in the original timeline. It would be no better than creating a fantasy world apart from the “real” timeline. It still raises the question though of how he stayed so incognito. And even if he lived in Peggy’s basement for fifty years he still changed things because she obviously wouldn’t have gotten married her original husband, right? So that’s a pretty big butterfly effect right there. How did that not create a new timeline? ? My take is, she didn’t have a husband until Steve. And having a husband wasn’t significant enough to branch the timeline. My understanding is that only events that alter the course of human history at large would change the lines if she continued to work with SHIELD then nothing fundamentally changed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2021 1:46:46 GMT
This is probably the best explanation, I think. It fits the rules and provides good explanation for why Steve didn’t change anything- If he did and it created a new timeline, then technically he wouldn’t really be changing anything because the “original” Bucky would remain unsaved in the original timeline. It would be no better than creating a fantasy world apart from the “real” timeline. It still raises the question though of how he stayed so incognito. And even if he lived in Peggy’s basement for fifty years he still changed things because she obviously wouldn’t have gotten married her original husband, right? So that’s a pretty big butterfly effect right there. How did that not create a new timeline? ? My take is, she didn’t have a husband until Steve. And having a husband wasn’t significant enough to branch the timeline. My understanding is that only events that alter the course of human history at large would change the lines if she continued to work with SHIELD then nothing fundamentally changed. But... technically you can’t change the future at all even if you try, and if you do it creates a new timeline. And even buying a candy bar at 7/11 would have a potentially far reaching butterfly effect, let alone marrying someone who would have married someone else. The ramifications of that would certainly alter history even if it’s on a very small personal scale. And how/why would the laws of physics(?) care/know the difference between small changes and history altering changes? Who/what judges such things? Different husband = no new timeline, but killing Thanos creates new timeline? That doesn’t really make sense. In the end though, it’s really just impossible to write a time travel story without these paradoxes so I am perfectly fine with it not making total sense,
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Feb 14, 2021 2:38:08 GMT
My take is, she didn’t have a husband until Steve. And having a husband wasn’t significant enough to branch the timeline. My understanding is that only events that alter the course of human history at large would change the lines if she continued to work with SHIELD then nothing fundamentally changed. But... technically you can’t change the future at all even if you try, and if you do it creates a new timeline. And even buying a candy bar at 7/11 would have a potentially far reaching butterfly effect, let alone marrying someone who would have married someone else. The ramifications of that would certainly alter history even if it’s on a very small personal scale. And how/why would the laws of physics(?) care/know the difference between small changes and history altering changes? Who/what judges such things? Different husband = no new timeline, but killing Thanos creates new timeline? That doesn’t really make sense. In the end though, it’s really just impossible to write a time travel story without these paradoxes so I am perfectly fine with it not making total sense, I believe their version is that you can make small changes without moving the overall time stream. Basically there isn’t a butterfly effect. The time stream tends to stay in line like a river, unless you do something significant to force it off course.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2021 5:13:56 GMT
But... technically you can’t change the future at all even if you try, and if you do it creates a new timeline. And even buying a candy bar at 7/11 would have a potentially far reaching butterfly effect, let alone marrying someone who would have married someone else. The ramifications of that would certainly alter history even if it’s on a very small personal scale. And how/why would the laws of physics(?) care/know the difference between small changes and history altering changes? Who/what judges such things? Different husband = no new timeline, but killing Thanos creates new timeline? That doesn’t really make sense. In the end though, it’s really just impossible to write a time travel story without these paradoxes so I am perfectly fine with it not making total sense, I believe their version is that you can make small changes without moving the overall time stream. Basically there isn’t a butterfly effect. The time stream tends to stay in line like a river, unless you do something significant to force it off course. But do those small changes effect the present? That’s what I find confusing. Have you heard the theory that Peggy’s husband was always Cap, even before he traveled back? I like that one.
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Post by dazz on Feb 14, 2021 5:31:48 GMT
My continuing belief is that Steve did stay in the original timeline, and as such he couldn’t alter anything significant. All that would do would cause another split timeline, not save anybody. Staying there wouldn’t be enough to shift the timeline, but major events like saving Bucky or correcting other terrible events would. This is probably the best explanation, I think. It fits the rules and provides good explanation for why Steve didn’t change anything- If he did and it created a new timeline, then technically he wouldn’t really be changing anything because the “original” Bucky would remain unsaved in the original timeline. It would be no better than creating a fantasy world apart from the “real” timeline. It still raises the question though of how he stayed so incognito. And even if he lived in Peggy’s basement for fifty years he still changed things because she obviously wouldn’t have gotten married her original husband, right? So that’s a pretty big butterfly effect right there. How did that not create a new timeline? ? Thats where the stable loop comes into play, Steve always was her husband, as such any action he took was always meant to happen so he never changed anything, not like it's creating a paradox like in Terminator where John only exists if Kyle goes back in time to father him, but Kyle only goes back because he is in love with Sarah in the first place and John is key to saving Kyle and defeating Skynet to where there is a chicken and egg situation, Peggy more importantly Steve as Peggy's husband isn't key to anything, if Steve went back in time married Peggy and never changes things there isn't a paradox there, you know Steve's kid isn't the guy who finds Steve frozen in ice so therefor without Steve going back the kid is never born meaning Steve never gets discovered and so on, this could be the original timeline. Then there's the time is like a river idea, where every act of time travel is like a rock being thrown in a stream, it causes a ripple but that ripple dissipates and the river flows as normal soon after, only changes are immediate but corrected but a major change is like a boulder being thrown into the river, it causes the river to change significantly to where it could cause the water to bottle up more and therefor the flow is forever changed, so like Steve could go back and in the original timeline Rhodey eats a poppy seed bagel for breakfast the day he first meets Tony, but now Cap went to the same bagel shop as Rhodey and brought the last poppy seed, so now Rhodey has to have a plain bagel for breakfast, it's a change but it's one that has in all likelihood no ramifications so it doesn't change anything other than the content of Rhodey's stomach that day, it allows minor changes without actually changing the timeline as time is somewhat malleable. So with the second theory whoever Peggy marries makes no difference so long as it leads to the same destination, which if either way Peggy ends up happy with kids and a good life, and so long as the potential guy she could have married ends up not being a mass murderer then it's all good.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Feb 14, 2021 5:41:35 GMT
I believe their version is that you can make small changes without moving the overall time stream. Basically there isn’t a butterfly effect. The time stream tends to stay in line like a river, unless you do something significant to force it off course. But do those small changes effect the present? That’s what I find confusing. Have you heard the theory that Peggy’s husband was always Cap, even before he traveled back? I like that one. I have heard that one. The idea is that if the changes are small enough then they don’t effect the present, because they don’t effect how things ended up. So even if Peggy wasn’t married in an original timeline whether Steve is there or not, as long as she builds SHIELD then it all works out even. You need up seeing that she was always married to Steve because the events don’t force a new timeline.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2021 17:55:15 GMT
I still think it begs the question of when exactly a new timeline gets created. What counts as a major enough change? And what universal law decides what counts as a change.? Again, why would the universe care about a major historical change but not the bagel that Rhodey ate? Seems rather arbitrary. A physical law is not going to change based on whether human history is impacted or just someone’s bagel. It’s all change no matter how big or small a human mind may deem it, therefore it should create a new timeline, right?
In any case, I’ll say again these things have to be accepted as nonsensical in time travel movies. There’s no way to avoid them.
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Post by dazz on Feb 14, 2021 20:26:04 GMT
I still think it begs the question of when exactly a new timeline gets created. What counts as a major enough change? And what universal law decides what counts as a change.? Again, why would the universe care about a major historical change but not the bagel that Rhodey ate? Seems rather arbitrary. A physical law is not going to change based on whether human history is impacted or just someone’s bagel. It’s all change no matter how big or small a human mind may deem it, therefore it should create a new timeline, right? In any case, I’ll say again these things have to be accepted as nonsensical in time travel movies. There’s no way to avoid them. With the time is a river idea it's basically how big the change impacts history, hence something like what Rhodey ate most likely had no real impact other than if he goes hmm, mmm mmm mmm or meh whilst munching on it, obviously this can differentiate between changes, like Rhodey could get sick from one bagel but not the other, and being sick can alter his day, maybe he doesn't meet Tony like he originally did, so their relationship never forms, and Rhodey does not become War Machine, or he could live out his life exactly the same except for the contents of his guts for a few hours, but it's based on I think the notion that time wants to happen a certain way, so it tries to course correct if anything changes, the idea with this though for the MCU means that when a change is too big however it creates a a new timeline which splits off from the main one, it a middle ground between the three typical ideas of time travel/timelines, where you have either a fixed, dynamic or multiversal timeline, where with the MCU you may have a dunamic fixed timeline within a multiverse, so time is malleable but wants to return to it's original shape, and if it can't it becomes it's own timeline. Would this be the case in reality? most likely not, I think the prevailing ideas is either a fixed or multiverse timeline thing, where like they say in the movie, you cannot change your past as to do so causes you as you are to never exist then you get into paradoxes and closed loops, so either you can only go back in time to cause things that did happen to always have happened, or the moment you go back you most likely create a new timeline therefor any changes only impact that timeline, not your own, as such you can never cause yourself not to be born and shit, at worst all you do is prevent that timeline from having a you to begin with, but like I said I think the MCU has a hybrid of the 3 major theories of time travel, which basically means anything can go should the choose to dick about with time travel, which is better than having a set of rules you just break all the time like as is the case with the CW DC shows and their approach to time travel.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2021 21:47:26 GMT
I still think it begs the question of when exactly a new timeline gets created. What counts as a major enough change? And what universal law decides what counts as a change.? Again, why would the universe care about a major historical change but not the bagel that Rhodey ate? Seems rather arbitrary. A physical law is not going to change based on whether human history is impacted or just someone’s bagel. It’s all change no matter how big or small a human mind may deem it, therefore it should create a new timeline, right? In any case, I’ll say again these things have to be accepted as nonsensical in time travel movies. There’s no way to avoid them. With the time is a river idea it's basically how big the change impacts history, hence something like what Rhodey ate most likely had no real impact other than if he goes hmm, mmm mmm mmm or meh whilst munching on it, obviously this can differentiate between changes, like Rhodey could get sick from one bagel but not the other, and being sick can alter his day, maybe he doesn't meet Tony like he originally did, so their relationship never forms, and Rhodey does not become War Machine, or he could live out his life exactly the same except for the contents of his guts for a few hours, but it's based on I think the notion that time wants to happen a certain way, so it tries to course correct if anything changes, the idea with this though for the MCU means that when a change is too big however it creates a a new timeline which splits off from the main one, it a middle ground between the three typical ideas of time travel/timelines, where you have either a fixed, dynamic or multiversal timeline, where with the MCU you may have a dunamic fixed timeline within a multiverse, so time is malleable but wants to return to it's original shape, and if it can't it becomes it's own timeline. Would this be the case in reality? most likely not, I think the prevailing ideas is either a fixed or multiverse timeline thing, where like they say in the movie, you cannot change your past as to do so causes you as you are to never exist then you get into paradoxes and closed loops, so either you can only go back in time to cause things that did happen to always have happened, or the moment you go back you most likely create a new timeline therefor any changes only impact that timeline, not your own, as such you can never cause yourself not to be born and shit, at worst all you do is prevent that timeline from having a you to begin with, but like I said I think the MCU has a hybrid of the 3 major theories of time travel, which basically means anything can go should the choose to dick about with time travel, which is better than having a set of rules you just break all the time like as is the case with the CW DC shows and their approach to time travel. I suppose I could accept that as a premise. It’s a bit wonky, but I’m not going to be too hard on it. The movie is enjoyable and Old Man Cap is certainly worth ignoring a bit of time travel paradox.
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Post by Archelaus on Feb 15, 2021 21:50:30 GMT
I prefer to think Steve didn't do anything too drastically. However, his presence in alternate 1949 would surely alternate the timeline one way or another. He would have had a hand in creating SHIELD for one thing. My only problem is that Sharon Carter would be creeped out and confused at how "recently revived" Steve looks exactly like her uncle did in his younger years.
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Post by Vassaggo on Feb 15, 2021 23:57:54 GMT
I still think it begs the question of when exactly a new timeline gets created. What counts as a major enough change? And what universal law decides what counts as a change.? Again, why would the universe care about a major historical change but not the bagel that Rhodey ate? Seems rather arbitrary. A physical law is not going to change based on whether human history is impacted or just someone’s bagel. It’s all change no matter how big or small a human mind may deem it, therefore it should create a new timeline, right? In any case, I’ll say again these things have to be accepted as nonsensical in time travel movies. There’s no way to avoid them. With the time is a river idea it's basically how big the change impacts history, hence something like what Rhodey ate most likely had no real impact other than if he goes hmm, mmm mmm mmm or meh whilst munching on it, obviously this can differentiate between changes, like Rhodey could get sick from one bagel but not the other, and being sick can alter his day, maybe he doesn't meet Tony like he originally did, so their relationship never forms, and Rhodey does not become War Machine, or he could live out his life exactly the same except for the contents of his guts for a few hours, but it's based on I think the notion that time wants to happen a certain way, so it tries to course correct if anything changes, the idea with this though for the MCU means that when a change is too big however it creates a a new timeline which splits off from the main one, it a middle ground between the three typical ideas of time travel/timelines, where you have either a fixed, dynamic or multiversal timeline, where with the MCU you may have a dunamic fixed timeline within a multiverse, so time is malleable but wants to return to it's original shape, and if it can't it becomes it's own timeline. Would this be the case in reality? most likely not, I think the prevailing ideas is either a fixed or multiverse timeline thing, where like they say in the movie, you cannot change your past as to do so causes you as you are to never exist then you get into paradoxes and closed loops, so either you can only go back in time to cause things that did happen to always have happened, or the moment you go back you most likely create a new timeline therefor any changes only impact that timeline, not your own, as such you can never cause yourself not to be born and shit, at worst all you do is prevent that timeline from having a you to begin with, but like I said I think the MCU has a hybrid of the 3 major theories of time travel, which basically means anything can go should the choose to dick about with time travel, which is better than having a set of rules you just break all the time like as is the case with the CW DC shows and their approach to time travel. Your explanation of the past not wanting to change, but will kind of reminds me of the Time Travel in Stephen King's 11/22/63 to a degree. There the past fights back because it's obdurate. So it's like a force of nature trying to push back against major changes. The bigger the change the more force it applies until a new stream has to be created. Again not quite the same, but just reminded me of it. If you go back and try and stop a father from murdering his family you find on the morning of the change you have the worst stomach flu you've ever had, so much so you have to wear incontinent pants as an example. You also had the Green/Yellow Card men who had to hold all the new streams in their imagination so the different streams didn't echo onto each other and collapse, but that's a different story.
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