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Post by Salzmank on May 11, 2017 22:17:52 GMT
Now, you may all find this question a little odd, but it's something about which I've been wondering for a while, so please do humor me. For many years, folks have been divided on the 1935 horror picture, Mark of the Vampire (dir. Tod Browning; starring Lionel Barrymore and Bela Lugosi). While a picture as generally conventional for its genre as this may not seem to warrant all this attention, it features a twist ending that either leaves people smiling or fuming. Those who have seen it know what I mean. If you haven't seen it, Internet Archive has a copy. So--where do you stand on it? I well know that whether or not one likes Mark's ending is not the central issue of our time, but it has interested me for a long time, as I wrote, if only because I saw it when I was young and enjoyed it a great deal and only came to realize how much the people who didn't like it really didn't like it (usually because of that ending). OK, so what say you?
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Post by Doghouse6 on May 11, 2017 23:26:19 GMT
So--where do you stand on it? I well know that whether or not one likes Mark's ending is not the central issue of our time, but it has interested me for a long time, as I wrote, if only because I saw it when I was young and enjoyed it a great deal and only came to realize how much the people who didn't like it really didn't like it (usually because of that ending). OK, so what say you? Once again, I must beg your indulgence: no category in which to place my vote. I'm pretty "meh" about the whole affair, so the ending doesn't generate strong feelings one way or the other. The impression it leaves with me is that of a fairly routine whodunit in Halloween drag. On a personal level, I consider it something of a sin to cast Lugosi and then render him silent for the bulk of the film, emerging only here or there to wordlessly project supernatural menace (eerily and sadly presaging his screen swan song in what eventually took the form of Plan Nine From Outer Space). Seems like most of the studios in town sooner or later dipped their toes into the fright film genre (during either the so-called first or second cycle), but aside from the occasion gem from elsewhere, it remained one upon which Universal held the patent.
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Post by claudius on May 12, 2017 0:27:28 GMT
I wouldn't call it a favorite, but the ending never bothered me. Reading CLASSICS OF THE HORROR FILM spoiled it for me, so it didn't affect my watching it for the first time on TNT one night (the second half- beginning with the trip to the crypt- which led to my first experience of Lon Chaney's voice with the follow-up broadcast of THE UNHOLY THREE'30). The film showed film's first bat transformation and the first vampire hiss.
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Post by outrider127 on May 12, 2017 0:45:06 GMT
Now, you may all find this question a little odd, but it's something about which I've been wondering for a while, so please do humor me. For many years, folks have been divided on the 1935 horror picture, Mark of the Vampire (dir. Tod Browning; starring Lionel Barrymore and Bela Lugosi). While a picture as generally conventional for its genre as this may not seem to warrant all this attention, it features a twist ending that either leaves people smiling or fuming. Those who have seen it know what I mean. If you haven't seen it, Internet Archive has a copy. So--where do you stand on it? I well know that whether or not one likes Mark's ending is not the central issue of our time, but it has interested me for a long time, as I wrote, if only because I saw it when I was young and enjoyed it a great deal and only came to realize how much the people who didn't like it really didn't like it (usually because of that ending). OK, so what say you? I thought it was the craziest ending I've ever seen, and I don't mean that in a good way--Before the ending, this was an effectively creepy and atmospheric Dracula film--but the ending! It was like filming ended and by mistake the camera's still rolling and we're watching them in their dressing rooms talking about whatever--nuts
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Post by teleadm on May 12, 2017 15:06:31 GMT
Since I haven't seen it myself I don't have any opinion, but the ending is revealed in many books. So if I did indeed see it one day I would instead have searched for clues along the way to see why it ended as it did, just like any good detective would do.
Tod Browning, once a man who made many profits for MGM in the silent days, must have seamed like fish out of water by the time this movie was made, as MGM was stearing into more wholesome and polished entertainment by 1935 "even the B-movies have to look like A-movies" policy and "more stars than there is in heaven" slogan.
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Post by koskiewicz on May 12, 2017 16:07:14 GMT
I love this film, and especially the ending. When I first viewed this film as a child, I was disappointed...but today, I understand the intent and the films context and truly believe it to be a classic...!
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Post by telegonus on May 13, 2017 8:19:26 GMT
I found Mark Of The Vampire enjoyable and fun, with its thrills less frightening than engaging, as in they drew me in, kept the film going. The art direction and (I believe it's James Wong Howe's) camerawork are outstanding. It's MGM, and, and, as one might expect, and feels classy as hell.
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Post by Salzmank on Nov 8, 2017 19:36:08 GMT
Not to bring back this old thread kicking and screaming, but I'd like to get everyone's take on something... Over at the Classic Horror Film Board (CHFB), we're having a bit of a back-and-forth over whether or not Mark of the Vampire is a parody of Dracula; I argue that it is and wrote my case for the Prosecution there: ...whereas another poster, Craig, posted the case for the Defense... ...and I'm really interested on your take, mostly because I always saw Mark as parodying Dracula--not, again, as a Brooksian full-on spoof, but as a gentle parody that exaggerates the earlier film and turns the expected supernaturalism on its head. So--what say you?
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Post by Doghouse6 on Nov 8, 2017 23:29:57 GMT
Not to bring back this old thread kicking and screaming, but I'd like to get everyone's take on something... Over at the Classic Horror Film Board (CHFB), we're having a bit of a back-and-forth over whether or not Mark of the Vampire is a parody of Dracula......and I'm really interested on your take, mostly because I always saw Mark as parodying Dracula--not, again, as a Brooksian full-on spoof, but as a gentle parody that exaggerates the earlier film and turns the expected supernaturalism on its head. So--what say you? Welllllll, I gave MOTV another look when TCM ran it again last month and, while I haven't altered my opinion from earlier this year, I have formed some further impressions. The first is one of overproduced excess: there's just a little too much of everything. It's as though MGM, conscious of its opulently glossy and bejeweled status as the Rolls Royce of movie factories, operated with the mindset, "Anything they can do, we can do better... we're MGM!" So the stately silence of Lugosi's descent of castle stairs in Dracula is gussied up on MGM's nearly-identical set with more cobwebs, fluid crane shots, cutaways to creepy creatures, bats sailing past the lens and an omnipresent sound effect combining howling winds and a ghostly, moaning chorus. It's rather akin to the effect of their spate of musical remakes in the '50s, when all the color, stereophonic sound and widescreen they could throw at new versions of films like Showboat, Roberta and The Women couldn't disguise the bloodless and hollow nature of exercises that drained the charm from those properties, substituting polished spectacle for sincerity. And perhaps sincerity is what's most absent from MOTV. For all the static characteristics of its late-1930, "dawn of the talkies" primitiveness, Dracula is earnest where MOTV merely apes. Could that be the aspect that opens to door to questions about parody? I note in passing that the final "twist" scene is a carbon copy of one toward the end of MGM's own Bombshell (1933), itself a satiric look at film stardom, in which a snooty family of Boston bluebloods whose respectability tempts beleaguered actress Lola Burns (Jean Harlow) away from her tabloid headline existence is revealed as stock players hired by the studio publicity chief to make a point to her about staying where she belongs (which, come to think of it, harkens to any number of their Andy Hardys or Joan Crawford rags-to-riches melodramas, along with The Wizard Of OZ, themselves the objects of much parody). I wonder, then, if "camp" isn't a word more applicable to MOTV than "parody." I came across the following definition of the former: "Something that provides sophisticated, knowing amusement by being artlessly mannered or stylized, self-consciously artificial and extravagant, or teasingly ingenuous in a theatrical manner."
By 1935, Universal was injecting that element into its own product, supplanting the subdued grimness of Frankenstein or The Black Cat with the colorful whimsy of The Bride Of Frankenstein and scenery-chewing theatricality of The Raven. Their one "play it straight" horror entry of that year, The Werewolf Of London, flopped. Maybe there was a "something in the air" evolution of tastes occurring by that time, whereby audiences no longer wished to take their scares too seriously, and to which the MOTV "twist" gave both its acknowledgement and assent.
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Post by Salzmank on Nov 8, 2017 23:52:34 GMT
Ah, many thanks, Doghouse6 ! While I like Mark more than you do, as you know, I think we agree completely on this: "...audiences no longer wished to take their scares too seriously, [and] to which the MOTV 'twist' gave both its acknowledgement and assent." That is the way I've seen Mark from the very first time I saw it, which is why I was surprised that one of the members there, who I know has written on this topic, informed me that he sees no humor, parody, or camp in it whatsoever. While it's entirely possible that I'm wrong about it, I was surprised that someone well-read and knowledgeable about the topic detected none of an element that I saw very clearly (which is, I suppose, why I am more perturbed about this than I ought to be; I asked myself, am I missing something? Did I just read into the movie what I wanted to be there?). It wouldn't trouble me so much (and it shouldn't trouble me at all) if it didn't seem so obvious to me. Oh, well... I think that camp is the very word for what I intended, and many thanks for supplying it, though sometimes that word more suggests a tone more similar to The Rocky Horror Picture Show. I agree that Mark certainly doesn't have what you excellently described as the "subdued grimness" of Frankenstein and The Black Cat or the "colorful whimsy" of Bride, but rather--perhaps--something in-between, which makes it so difficult to place. As you put it, Dracula is indeed earnest while Mark apes, and it is this aping which led me to suggest its undercurrent of [very subdued--except in Barrymore's portrayal--but present] humor. I suppose it is one of those elements that one either sees or doesn't--a bit like the subtext questions that are often brought up re: horror films. Thanks for the talk, Doc. Do I pay your receptionist on the way out? 
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Post by Doghouse6 on Nov 9, 2017 1:30:02 GMT
Ah, many thanks, Doghouse6 ! ...one of the members there, who I know has written on this topic, informed me that he sees no humor, parody, or camp in it whatsoever. While it's entirely possible that I'm wrong about it, I was surprised that someone well-read and knowledgeable about the topic detected none of an element that I saw very clearly (which is, I suppose, why I am more perturbed about this than I ought to be; I asked myself, am I missing something? Did I just read into the movie what I wanted to be there?). The bemusement's understandable. Even if one chooses to take a reference like "batthorn" as not intended to evoke the earlier "wolfbane," the giant exclamation point that the "twist" scene puts to the final-reel revelation of the ruse seems unmistakable: how could that not have been engineered to "leave 'em laughing?" But we're stuck with evaluating these things from a decades-later perspective without benefit of the context of an earlier age. While I stand by my evaluation of Dracula as earnest, I now recall that it originally came with its own "tag" that was probably still fresh in many a 1935 viewer's mind: Edward Van Sloan's now-long-lost curtain speech ( "There are such things!"). Without seeing it, there's no way to know in what spirit it was to be taken: leave 'em laughing or send 'em home to sleep with the lights on? And I also now recall that 1943's otherwise-serious Return Of the Vampire supplied its own fourth-wall-breaking wink at audiences when a grinning Miles Mander posed the question of belief in vampires directly to them through the camera lens: "Do you?" So I dunno, maybe your friend on the other board is taking MOTV in that vein: just an innocuous little fade-out gag that doesn't necessarily offer commentary on anything going before it. Oh, and never mind the fee. With all my "perhapses," "could it bes" and "I wonders," I figure we come out even.
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Post by petrolino on Nov 9, 2017 2:07:43 GMT
I love this film, and especially the ending. When I first viewed this film as a child, I was disappointed...but today, I understand the intent and the films context and truly believe it to be a classic...! I think I feel much the same way. Carroll Borland became an eternal icon of the undead here, inspiring everybody from Vampira to Elvira. Prolific horror filmmaker Fred Olen Ray of Wellston, Ohio tracked her down and convinced her to return to movies.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2017 4:35:49 GMT
Thanks for bumping this thread up and discussing it! It gave me the chance to watch this film. I hadn't heard of it before, and found it entertaining. I've never seen a film from the 30's take such a drastic turn in the story. A turn where everyone but one character and the entire audience is in on it.
The film did indeed to me have a campy feel to it. Until I was in on the twist, I thought it was an early effort by MGM to "check the boxes" for a vampire movie as laid out by "Dracula". It does give one something to ponder, was the box checking feel because of the actual first effort by MGM at replicating the formula the Universal created, or was it because the characters in the film were so good that they played it all along as police and family trying to fool the Baron?
Either way, a pleasure to watch.
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Post by Salzmank on Nov 9, 2017 17:34:43 GMT
@homergreg Very welcome, and nice to hear that you enjoyed it! It's a fun little b-film and a long-time favorite of mine. As for your question, I think it's not exactly an either-or but rather a both-and. Mark of the Vampire had Count Dracula himself, Béla Lugosi, playing the [apparent] vampire, as well as Dracula's director, Tod Browning, who was remaking his own [now-lost] silent London After Midnight. MGM, I think, clearly wanted to capitalize on the horror craze at the time--but not completely, being conscious and proud of its status (as Doghouse put it), not wanting to invest entirely in horror (which, I'm sure, made this more parodical and/or campy story more attractive to them than a straight vampire tale). It wanted not just to check the boxes but to go above and beyond--thus (quoting Doghouse again) "...more cobwebs, fluid crane shots, cutaways to creepy creatures, bats sailing past the lens and an omnipresent sound effect combining howling winds and a ghostly, moaning chorus." With that said, I also think the characters' desire to fool the Baron resulted in a very seemingly straightforward vampire story. While Browning did often shoot his movies in sequence ( d'après David Skal and Elias Savada''s Dark Carnival), I don't buy the story that the actors didn't know about the twist until right before filming it: at least someone must have seen London After Midnight, for one thing, and the acting in the early scenes bespeaks a clear awareness about what's going on. It's played too parodically (or campily) for that. Doghouse6I've been thinking about what you wrote here, as I would not consider either Dracula or Return of the Vampire to be intentionally humorous, parodical, or campy, even though both have some humor in it (more in Drac, especially with our old friends Martin and Renfield). I don't particularly see MotV in that vein (the pun was not originally intended, but now that it's written, I'll keep it!  ), as I do see the twist as characterizing the entirety of what became before it. Still, indeed, perhaps a fade-out gag is how he thinks of it... Anyway, am I lucky! You're the first doctor I've ever known who actually refuses payment--may I recommend all my friends to you too? 
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Post by Salzmank on Nov 10, 2017 1:56:56 GMT
Doghouse6I've asked him, and while he didn't respond to that point, someone else wrote this: After going back and forth, back and forth, on this topic, I wrote this: I'm just--really surprised, as stated before.
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Post by poelzig on Nov 10, 2017 2:20:25 GMT
Now, you may all find this question a little odd, but it's something about which I've been wondering for a while, so please do humor me. For many years, folks have been divided on the 1935 horror picture, Mark of the Vampire (dir. Tod Browning; starring Lionel Barrymore and Bela Lugosi). While a picture as generally conventional for its genre as this may not seem to warrant all this attention, it features a twist ending that either leaves people smiling or fuming. Those who have seen it know what I mean. If you haven't seen it, Internet Archive has a copy. So--where do you stand on it? I well know that whether or not one likes Mark's ending is not the central issue of our time, but it has interested me for a long time, as I wrote, if only because I saw it when I was young and enjoyed it a great deal and only came to realize how much the people who didn't like it really didn't like it (usually because of that ending). OK, so what say you? Considering it was directed by Tod Browning and has an excellent cast it's pretty disappointing.
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Post by Salzmank on Nov 10, 2017 2:36:59 GMT
poelzigI agree that it has an excellent cast, but (while I clearly like the film much more than you do) I don't think the fact that it was directed by Browning is a major consideration (IMO). I'm a great fan of Dracula, Mark of the Vampire, and The Devil-Doll, and I moderately like The Unholy Three (though I heretically prefer the talkie remake), The Unknown, and Miracles for Sale, but on the whole I just don't think Browning is a particularly good director. (I do not like Freaks, which I just consider a terribly-made movie that glides by just because it was infamously pulled from release and unable to be seen for years.) His direction is not only lacking but extraordinarily dull, and (as Everson commented) he often begins a picture with evocative or shocking imagery that sucks you in, but is nearly always unable to deliver on it once you get halfway into the movie (ah, the old carnie in him!). Yet a duality truly exists with Browning: many of his scenarios are excellent; the problem is that the execution is nigh-always lacking. (Though the Chaney-Browning connection is well-known, I think Chaney was actually better-directed by Worsley [ Hunchback], Sjöström [ He Who Gets Slapped], and Conway [the Unholy Three remake].)
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Post by Doghouse6 on Nov 10, 2017 5:18:18 GMT
Doghouse6 I've asked him, and while he didn't respond to that point, someone else wrote this: After going back and forth, back and forth, on this topic, I wrote this: I'm just--really surprised, as stated before. That's our tenacious Salzmank: never let it be said there's any job left half-done or any issue not fully explored. And I say that with only mildly teasing yet sincere admiration. I've regularly lurked on the Classic Horror Film Board for many years (but never signed up to contribute...so many there seem to know each other so well and have such rapport, I'd feel like I was crashing a party) and always find it informative and wildly entertaining.
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Post by Salzmank on Nov 10, 2017 17:35:00 GMT
Thank you so much, Doghouse6 ; I suppose there is that tenacious--perhaps, unfortunately, even pugnacious--side to my character that manifests when I believe something, even if's rather insignificant (as a silly little b-movie like Mark of the Vampire is). Oh, well, perhaps that side gets the better of me, too, as I just lashed out after I was told that thinking this ways means that I don't know the definition of the word parody and that I could then be expected to think of The General as a tragedy and Hamlet as a comedy. I think you're completely right that the members know each other so well and have such rapport. I crashed the party, and then I paid the price for it.
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Post by teleadm on Nov 10, 2017 17:53:06 GMT
I thought this was a cool pic:  Even if vampires sedom gives a damned about spider webs, they fly right trough them and the angry spider has to do her net all over again.
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