|
Post by amyghost on Feb 21, 2021 11:45:18 GMT
The biggest issue anyone should have with the bible is the simple realization that it's a book that was written by human beings (quite a few of them, in all probability), filled with all the contradictions that an unwieldy compendium of myth, moral instruction and shaky history can deliver up; meaning it certainly can't be taken as a literal or even very dependable guide to anything. It will have as many different interpretations placed on its contents as there are readers of it, and as with all manifestations of religion in general, it is a purely human creation--making it, by necessity, often filled with error and prejudices. Taken as such, one could just as easily employ something like Huckleberry Finn as a good moral guide to life insofar as both books are products of the human intellect and neither is more 'divine' in nature than the other. Come to think of it, in some respects, old Huck might actually be a better guide to living a right life than much of the bible is. There are ways to get around that. Some claim that anything that contradicts the Bible is simply made up by man to discredit the word of God and that any other perceived contradictions in the Bible is that the people who raise issue don't understand why these aren't contradictions.
It is very silly. I mean right off the bat the Bible claims that plants came before the sun. All you have to do is easy everyday observation to know that doesn't make sense. That bolded part is your best indicator that the bible is a book authored by humans, filled with human error. It's boilerplate human psychology at work when that psychology tries to obscure an obvious truth with a 'divine' or 'mystical' explanation that only the supposedly initiated can hope to comprehend.
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Feb 21, 2021 12:46:45 GMT
There are ways to get around that. Some claim that anything that contradicts the Bible is simply made up by man to discredit the word of God and that any other perceived contradictions in the Bible is that the people who raise issue don't understand why these aren't contradictions.
It is very silly. I mean right off the bat the Bible claims that plants came before the sun. All you have to do is easy everyday observation to know that doesn't make sense. That bolded part is your best indicator that the bible is a book authored by humans, filled with human error. It's boilerplate human psychology at work when that psychology tries to obscure an obvious truth with a 'divine' or 'mystical' explanation that only the supposedly initiated can hope to comprehend. My point is...try telling the fundamentalists that. They will just go into denial, because for whatever reason they think their world will crumble if they stop believing.
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Feb 21, 2021 16:17:34 GMT
That bolded part is your best indicator that the bible is a book authored by humans, filled with human error. It's boilerplate human psychology at work when that psychology tries to obscure an obvious truth with a 'divine' or 'mystical' explanation that only the supposedly initiated can hope to comprehend. My point is...try telling the fundamentalists that. They will just go into denial, because for whatever reason they think their world will crumble if they stop believing. Stop caring what fundamentalists think. The only power they have now derives from the fact that otherwise sane people began to care about what they thought and started acting as though they deserved a legitimate place at the societal table. Once the fundies got that foot in the door, they ran amok. The only way to begin stripping them of the power they've managed to acquire is by relegating them to the ideological dump their loony ideas deservedly place them. One way to begin doing that is by ceasing to concern yourself with what any fundie thinks or believes regarding any matter of importance. One of their primary ideological stances is that they should remove themselves from this sinful world. So oblige them in that stance by ignoring them altogether.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2021 16:33:23 GMT
My point is...try telling the fundamentalists that. They will just go into denial, because for whatever reason they think their world will crumble if they stop believing. Stop caring what fundamentalists think. The only power they have now derives from the fact that otherwise sane people began to care about what they thought and started acting as though they deserved a legitimate place at the societal table. Once the fundies got that foot in the door, they ran amok. The only way to begin stripping them of the power they've managed to acquire is by relegating them to the ideological dump their loony ideas deservedly place them. One way to begin doing that is by ceasing to concern yourself with what any fundie thinks or believes regarding any matter of importance. One of their primary ideological stances is that they should remove themselves from this sinful world. So oblige them in that stance by ignoring them altogether. Fuck those fundos... Fuck them up their stupid arses. Can I just say in defence of Christianity in general, that Christianity in the US is totally different to Christianity in most of the rest of the world. We think US 'christianity' is some kind of sick cult that indoctrinates the ill-educated, and other jelly brained people.
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Feb 21, 2021 21:14:58 GMT
My point is...try telling the fundamentalists that. They will just go into denial, because for whatever reason they think their world will crumble if they stop believing. Stop caring what fundamentalists think. The only power they have now derives from the fact that otherwise sane people began to care about what they thought and started acting as though they deserved a legitimate place at the societal table. Once the fundies got that foot in the door, they ran amok. The only way to begin stripping them of the power they've managed to acquire is by relegating them to the ideological dump their loony ideas deservedly place them. One way to begin doing that is by ceasing to concern yourself with what any fundie thinks or believes regarding any matter of importance. One of their primary ideological stances is that they should remove themselves from this sinful world. So oblige them in that stance by ignoring them altogether. I do ignore them, but they are still a curiosity to me.
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Feb 21, 2021 23:22:43 GMT
That it has hundreds, if not thousands of interpretations and many religious people can't even agree on what the criteria is for the most important thing - eternal life and to avoid eternal torment. How does an all-knowing God who wants us to believe he is great and loving...or that he even exists screw that up? I could be doing everything I think the Bible is telling me to do and be completely off base. How to believers get around this? The biggest problem with the Bible is that there’s little reason to believe much of any of it. It’s mostly written by anonymous authors with no originals decades, centuries, and millennia after the events they supposedly depict, and with no testable evidence for its supernatural claims. It’s essentially a book of fairy tales, and I don’t honestly know of any serious reason to take them seriously.
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Feb 21, 2021 23:39:13 GMT
That it has hundreds, if not thousands of interpretations and many religious people can't even agree on what the criteria is for the most important thing - eternal life and to avoid eternal torment. How does an all-knowing God who wants us to believe he is great and loving...or that he even exists screw that up? I could be doing everything I think the Bible is telling me to do and be completely off base. How to believers get around this? The biggest problem with the Bible is that there’s little reason to believe much of any of it. It’s mostly written by anonymous authors with no originals decades, centuries, and millennia after the events they supposedly depict, and with no testable evidence for its supernatural claims. It’s essentially a book of fairy tales, and I don’t honestly know of any serious reason to take them seriously. There are many reasons, but the reason I state is THE most difficult to overlook issue imo. I am getting a bunch of responses from people who I am basically on the same page with already. I was hoping to get some responses from theists. I assume those responses aren't coming because they have no way to argue against it in any way that makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on Feb 22, 2021 21:30:10 GMT
And not just the Bible. People happily chant their Bible verses and spout their doctrines and chide 'nonbelievers' while disregarding the distinct possibility that Christianity on the whole is totally wrong....that Jesus was NEVER a god and that all the references to god or the Lord or Jehovah or whatever in the OT are completely false.
I just saw an article describing how one of the oldest religions is slowly dying out.
I guess no one...Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc. ever gives a thought that Zoroastrians were/are the ones who were 'in like Flint' and will be rewarded and that all other god worshipers were/are "whoring after false gods."
My view is that if there is some sort of divinity/deity/god/whatever, I may be just as well of not believing anything about it rather than following what seem to me to be obviously false doctrines. If said deity is at all jealous or pedantic I may actually be better off "standing before him on judgment day" saying, I did not worship any gods because I was uncertain rather than admitting I worshiped the wrong god in the wrong ways. Let's say God did not send his son to die on the cross and sees that that would be a horrendous example of human sacrifice. Would he be pleased with folks who thought he would do such a thing?
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Feb 22, 2021 22:21:59 GMT
I was raised Evangelical and the religious philosophy of my childhood church was boiled down to only one verse, John 3:16. It doesn't matter what you do or how you treat others, all that matters is that you believe that Jesus was the son of God. I'm pretty open minded about religion and I can find some redeeming qualities in most of them, but this branch of Christianity seems to have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It doesn't encourage growth or personal responsibility, or the development of a mature conscience. They don't seek wisdom or humility, and they tend to view God as the sky daddy who grants wishes and excuses their transgressions. God is there to serve them, rather than vice versa. It just boggles my mind. Some of the very worst people I know claim to be devout Christians, and yet they are incredibly self centered and egotistical, they act without conscience, and they become outraged if you hold them accountable for their actions. It's not good. Obviously not all Christians are toxic like that, but I know enough to make me lose a lot of respect for the faith. Religion should make people strive to become better human beings, not merely enable and excuse bad behavior.Great post. Surely the salvation of the soul offered by JC comes from actually living his earthly example... Love, compassion, peace, poverty, and all that good shit. He was a teacher of how to live. Personal redemption is achieved through living what he taught. You can't just say 'Jesus saves', then go about your life being a bigoted, hate filled, money-grubbing, self serving twat 🤨 OP, I would think these two posts are about as close as you are going to get to having a response from theists. And they neatly sidestep the issue of contradictions by affirming that a life lived as JC did is the most important aspect of the religion. And, if that was practiced by all people that identify with Christianity, it would be a better world. Sadly, very few Christians, and any other brand of religion you choose, exhibit these kinds of thoughts. Human nature? It's hard to sort out. There are plenty of secular humanists, and plenty of corrupt theists.
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Feb 22, 2021 22:24:49 GMT
And not just the Bible. People happily chant their Bible verses and spout their doctrines and chide 'nonbelievers' while disregarding the distinct possibility that Christianity on the whole is totally wrong....that Jesus was NEVER a god and that all the references to god or the Lord or Jehovah or whatever in the OT are completely false.
I just saw an article describing how one of the oldest religions is slowly dying out.
I guess no one...Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc. ever gives a thought that Zoroastrians were/are the ones who were 'in like Flint' and will be rewarded and that all other god worshipers were/are "whoring after false gods."
My view is that if there is some sort of divinity/deity/god/whatever, I may be just as well of not believing anything about it rather than following what seem to me to be obviously false doctrines. If said deity is at all jealous or pedantic I may actually be better off "standing before him on judgment day" saying, I did not worship any gods because I was uncertain rather than admitting I worshiped the wrong god in the wrong ways. Let's say God did not send his son to die on the cross and sees that that would be a horrendous example of human sacrifice. Would he be pleased with folks who thought he would do such a thing?
I was reading about why Jewish people don't believe in Jesus and that poked even more holes in Christianity.
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Feb 22, 2021 22:26:56 GMT
The biggest problem with the Bible is that there’s little reason to believe much of any of it. It’s mostly written by anonymous authors with no originals decades, centuries, and millennia after the events they supposedly depict, and with no testable evidence for its supernatural claims. It’s essentially a book of fairy tales, and I don’t honestly know of any serious reason to take them seriously. There are many reasons, but the reason I state is THE most difficult to overlook issue imo. I am getting a bunch of responses from people who I am basically on the same page with already. I was hoping to get some responses from theists. I assume those responses aren't coming because they have no way to argue against it in any way that makes sense. See my post above...
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Feb 22, 2021 22:29:36 GMT
There are many reasons, but the reason I state is THE most difficult to overlook issue imo. I am getting a bunch of responses from people who I am basically on the same page with already. I was hoping to get some responses from theists. I assume those responses aren't coming because they have no way to argue against it in any way that makes sense. See my post above... I did. I figured what the cop-out answer would be from true believers anyway. That isn't referring to anyone in this thread btw. The thing is that the best believers are the ones who are basically just humanists, but need a hope of eternal life to grab onto.
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Feb 22, 2021 22:52:45 GMT
One way that is tough for some believers - and even non-believers who pick at inconsistencies and the various horror stories – is to accept that the Bible, both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures, are a collection of literary works – almost all stories that illustrate faith but not theological essays - from the pre-scientific (to put it mildly) ancient world and which not only are NOT infallible in any way but present a myriad of points of view set in their own time and from knowledge and superstition and world events of their own time. This includes the writing of the Gospels and other NT lit. They may be studied for the secular and religious history they relate (and which often must be teased out of the religious narrative) and may be found profitable for showing how God acts through and within history. None of it is timeless. None of it is dictated or guided by god. All is historically based by authors rooted firmly in their culture. Yes, there are believers who can live with that because they understand that this is the reality and any other interpretation is wishful thinking. Personally, I was an evangelical Christian for a time many, many decades ago but have not believed in the supernatural or life after death or a pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die since then. However, I have always kept my interest in the academic study of the history of the Bible and of Christianity even to the point of learning Biblical Greek and taking some graduate seminary classes and being pleased with the secret knowledge that I was the only atheist in the room.Though our time lines are a bit different, I think we two are fairly close in previous belief and subsequent disbelief. Though my academic interest fell far short of learning Biblical Greek. It must have been fun, though, "with the secret knowledge that I was the only atheist in the room." I also studied other religions, mostly Eastern, and found a kind of wisdom underlying them, yet still consistent with the Golden Rule, which as you probably know can be found in the text of every religion's sacred writings. Christians didn't invent it, it goes as far back as Ancient Egypt. All I can do is try to "lessen the suffering of other sentient beings" (the Buddha) and treat others as I would want to be treated - the broad concept of the Golden Rule. Is there a single god that is the one true god? Given current available empirical evidence, it is not possible to know if a god exists, and what the nature of that god would be. So, agnostic at least, and more on the atheist side after many years of observing so-called believers. But I could be wrong, it's been known to happen.
|
|
|
Post by rachelcarson1953 on Feb 22, 2021 22:55:16 GMT
I did. I figured what the cop-out answer would be from true believers anyway. That isn't referring to anyone in this thread btw. The thing is that the best believers are the ones who are basically just humanists, but need a hope of eternal life to grab onto. And perhaps a way to cope with why bad stuff happens...
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Feb 22, 2021 23:01:11 GMT
I did. I figured what the cop-out answer would be from true believers anyway. That isn't referring to anyone in this thread btw. The thing is that the best believers are the ones who are basically just humanists, but need a hope of eternal life to grab onto. And perhaps a way to cope with why bad stuff happens... Yes, that too.
|
|
|
Post by mystery on Feb 22, 2021 23:29:17 GMT
The biggest problem with the Bible is that there’s little reason to believe much of any of it. It’s mostly written by anonymous authors with no originals decades, centuries, and millennia after the events they supposedly depict, and with no testable evidence for its supernatural claims. It’s essentially a book of fairy tales, and I don’t honestly know of any serious reason to take them seriously. There are many reasons, but the reason I state is THE most difficult to overlook issue imo. I am getting a bunch of responses from people who I am basically on the same page with already. I was hoping to get some responses from theists. I assume those responses aren't coming because they have no way to argue against it in any way that makes sense. There don't seem to be many Christians on this board. I'm a theist, but not Christian, so I really can't defend the Bible, because I don't believe in it myself.
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Feb 22, 2021 23:31:56 GMT
There are many reasons, but the reason I state is THE most difficult to overlook issue imo. I am getting a bunch of responses from people who I am basically on the same page with already. I was hoping to get some responses from theists. I assume those responses aren't coming because they have no way to argue against it in any way that makes sense. There don't seem to be many Christians on this board. I'm a theist, but not Christian, so I really can't defend the Bible, because I don't believe in it myself. What type of theist, may I ask?
|
|
|
Post by mystery on Feb 23, 2021 0:00:28 GMT
There don't seem to be many Christians on this board. I'm a theist, but not Christian, so I really can't defend the Bible, because I don't believe in it myself. What type of theist, may I ask? Spiritual, not religious. I haven't found a label that I'm comfortable with. My spirituality is closely tied to Nature, so in the past, I've identified as pagan, panentheist, etc. I find that labels become a burden and stifle growth, so I've given up on that. Maybe my most accurate title is just wanderer. Most of my beliefs come from personal experience, not from books or teachers. I enjoy learning about religions just because I find them interesting. However, I see them only as providing a framework to help people seek Divinity, not that any religion is itself the ultimate Truth. I suppose any religion is valid for the honest seeker, and there are many paths to the top of the mountain. All the genuinely spiritual people I've met seem to come to the same Truths and have similar views, despite a wide diversity of backgrounds. I find that fascinating.
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Feb 23, 2021 0:07:11 GMT
What type of theist, may I ask? Spiritual, not religious. I haven't found a label that I'm comfortable with. My spirituality is closely tied to Nature, so in the past, I've identified as pagan, panentheist, etc. I find that labels become a burden and stifle growth, so I've given up on that. Maybe my most accurate title is just wanderer. Most of my beliefs come from personal experience, not from books or teachers. I enjoy learning about religions just because I find them interesting. However, I see them only as providing a framework to help people seek Divinity, not that any religion is itself the ultimate Truth. I suppose any religion is valid for the honest seeker, and there are many paths to the top of the mountain. All the genuinely spiritual people I've met seem to come to the same Truths and have similar views, despite a wide diversity of backgrounds. I find that fascinating. I know what that means to other people, but I don't personally find any use for it. I find all that stuff interesting, but I don't believe in any of it as truth and have seen no reason to. I'm sure there is something more to existence than we realize, but I don't know what it is and therefor hold no belief regarding it.
|
|
|
Post by mystery on Feb 23, 2021 0:14:53 GMT
Spiritual, not religious. I haven't found a label that I'm comfortable with. My spirituality is closely tied to Nature, so in the past, I've identified as pagan, panentheist, etc. I find that labels become a burden and stifle growth, so I've given up on that. Maybe my most accurate title is just wanderer. Most of my beliefs come from personal experience, not from books or teachers. I enjoy learning about religions just because I find them interesting. However, I see them only as providing a framework to help people seek Divinity, not that any religion is itself the ultimate Truth. I suppose any religion is valid for the honest seeker, and there are many paths to the top of the mountain. All the genuinely spiritual people I've met seem to come to the same Truths and have similar views, despite a wide diversity of backgrounds. I find that fascinating. I know what that means to other people, but I don't personally find any use for it. I find all that stuff interesting, but I don't believe in any of it as truth and have seen no reason to. I'm sure there is something more to existence than we realize, but I don't know what it is and therefor hold no belief regarding it. I understand. I was an atheist from my late teens to early 20s. But, my life has always been kind of weird, and there was just too much that I couldn't explain. I don't have any problem with atheists. We all have our own journey to take.
|
|