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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Mar 2, 2021 17:50:53 GMT
And yet Devin Booker scored 70 points-- 51 in the second half alone. Where is he on your list of all time NBA greats? They don't all have to be threes, my point was the shift toward three point shooting and wide open offenses has made it easier to get good looks for great shooters. This league wants you to score a ton of points. Players aren't seen as selfish anymore, there's no such thing as taking too many shots now. Big picture, I'm with you. My money is on nobody doing it. But I still don't think it's impossible. I get that it’s a different game today than even as recently as Jordan’s time. I’m just saying that in the entire history of the game, Kobe is the only player besides Wilt to get even 80, and it’s fair to say that Kobe could be a tad on the selfish side. 70 has only been achieved 4 times by non-Wilt players. Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Melo, Harden, and literally everyone else you can name haven’t come close. I think of today’s players Harden could come the closest with the support of the other Nets, but there’s a wide gulf between coming close and actually breaking it. I think a pitcher has a better chance to get 30 wins or a QB passing for 6500 yards than anyone surpassing Wilt. I think David Robinson had 81 didn't he?
I may be off.......
Or was it 71?
I'll have to look it up
** Edit - just looked it up - was 71
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Mar 2, 2021 17:51:54 GMT
I get that it’s a different game today than even as recently as Jordan’s time. I’m just saying that in the entire history of the game, Kobe is the only player besides Wilt to get even 80, and it’s fair to say that Kobe could be a tad on the selfish side. 70 has only been achieved 4 times by non-Wilt players. Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Melo, Harden, and literally everyone else you can name haven’t come close. I think of today’s players Harden could come the closest with the support of the other Nets, but there’s a wide gulf between coming close and actually breaking it. I think a pitcher has a better chance to get 30 wins or a QB passing for 6500 yards than anyone surpassing Wilt. I think David Robinson had 81 didn't he?
I may be off.......
Or was it 71?
I'll have to look it up
** Edit - just looked it up - was 71
It was 71.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Mar 2, 2021 17:56:17 GMT
I get that it’s a different game today than even as recently as Jordan’s time. I’m just saying that in the entire history of the game, Kobe is the only player besides Wilt to get even 80, and it’s fair to say that Kobe could be a tad on the selfish side. 70 has only been achieved 4 times by non-Wilt players. Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Melo, Harden, and literally everyone else you can name haven’t come close. I think of today’s players Harden could come the closest with the support of the other Nets, but there’s a wide gulf between coming close and actually breaking it. I think a pitcher has a better chance to get 30 wins or a QB passing for 6500 yards than anyone surpassing Wilt. I think David Robinson had 81 didn't he?
I may be off.......
Or was it 71?
I'll have to look it up
** Edit - just looked it up - was 71
Think about this. A player finishes a game with 29 points, he’s generally considered to have had a good game. So someone would have to have a David Robinson game and then another good game on top of that. I don’t see it happening.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Mar 2, 2021 17:57:36 GMT
I think David Robinson had 81 didn't he?
I may be off.......
Or was it 71?
I'll have to look it up
** Edit - just looked it up - was 71
Think about this. A player finishes a game with 29 points, he’s generally considered to have had a good game. So someone would have to have a David Robinson game and then another good game on top of that. I don’t see it happening. What if it was a quadruple OT game..........
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Mar 2, 2021 18:02:38 GMT
Think about this. A player finishes a game with 29 points, he’s generally considered to have had a good game. So someone would have to have a David Robinson game and then another good game on top of that. I don’t see it happening. What if it was a quadruple OT game..........
Well then it gets an asterisk because Wilt did it within regulation.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Mar 2, 2021 18:11:39 GMT
What if it was a quadruple OT game..........
Well then it gets an asterisk because Wilt did it within regulation. I just pulled up Basketball Reference.com to check out how good that team was and my jaw just dropped at the final scores during that year
They scored 169 points that game - but routinely scored in the 130s - opposition routinely scored in the 130s, 140s, 150s - I expected to see something more like 90s basketball
I can see 3 times combined where either they or the opposition scored less than 100 points - for the entire season
This is the complete opposite of what I expected to see
I guess there was no defense back then
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Post by SportsFan19 on Mar 2, 2021 18:29:08 GMT
Stephen A. and Max this morning had a debate on whether he is better than Shaq
Many compare him to Hakeem.
I love The Dream - but Jo-Jo is better than Hakeem.
Does this mean his career will turn out better than Shaq and The Dream?
Absolutely not - but all it means is What it means is the discussion only exists so idiots will watch their show.
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Post by SportsFan19 on Mar 2, 2021 18:33:26 GMT
Well then it gets an asterisk because Wilt did it within regulation. I just pulled up Basketball Reference.com to check out how good that team was and my jaw just dropped at the final scores during that year
They scored 169 points that game - but routinely scored in the 130s - opposition routinely scored in the 130s, 140s, 150s - I expected to see something more like 90s basketball
I can see 3 times combined where either they or the opposition scored less than 100 points - for the entire season
This is the complete opposite of what I expected to see
I guess there was no defense back then
Didn't you ever wonder why there were so many rebounds back then?
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Post by Mulder and Scully on Mar 2, 2021 20:07:52 GMT
Well then it gets an asterisk because Wilt did it within regulation. I just pulled up Basketball Reference.com to check out how good that team was and my jaw just dropped at the final scores during that year
They scored 169 points that game - but routinely scored in the 130s - opposition routinely scored in the 130s, 140s, 150s - I expected to see something more like 90s basketball
I can see 3 times combined where either they or the opposition scored less than 100 points - for the entire season
This is the complete opposite of what I expected to see
I guess there was no defense back then
Scoring was actually at it's peak in the 60s. In 62, the average scoring was 118 and for the decade, it was on the higher end. Even the so-called "tough" 80s, the average scoring for the decade was 109. They scored a lot. The so-called "physical" defense during these eras was exaggerated.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 2, 2021 21:25:14 GMT
You think he's better than guys who carried teams to titles when he can't even make a conference final, it's great. Maybe this will be the year. Well -
Like I stated above - obviously he can't be considered the better player than both Shaq and Dream at this point - but he's trending that way if he continues playing like this - and obviously he's going to need a few titles - but that's they way he's trending
More talented and skilled and more dominant than Shaq and Dream - he just needs the titles now......
No. He definitely has the edge in versatility over either of those guys, because that's the way the gamer is played today. But prime Olajuwon was more skilled in the post and both Olajuwon and Shaq were more dominant in their prime than Embiid is now.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Mar 2, 2021 21:28:00 GMT
Well -
Like I stated above - obviously he can't be considered the better player than both Shaq and Dream at this point - but he's trending that way if he continues playing like this - and obviously he's going to need a few titles - but that's they way he's trending
More talented and skilled and more dominant than Shaq and Dream - he just needs the titles now......
No. He definitely has the edge in versatility over either of those guys, because that's the way the gamer is played today. But prime Olajuwon was more skilled in the post and both Olajuwon and Shaq were more dominant in their prime than Embiid is now. Nope
Jo-Jo can hit the 3 at a much better rate and also is a much better free throw shooter
Jo-Jo's Skillset > Dream
Jo-Jo > PPG Than Dream Jo-Jo > RPG Than Dream Jo-Jo > APG Than Dream Jo-Jo > 3PT% Than Dream Jo-Jo > FT% Than Dream
I love Dream, but Jo-Jo's Skillset > Dream
I like Jo-Jo's Dream Shake a little better too -
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 2, 2021 22:45:05 GMT
No. He definitely has the edge in versatility over either of those guys, because that's the way the gamer is played today. But prime Olajuwon was more skilled in the post and both Olajuwon and Shaq were more dominant in their prime than Embiid is now. Nope
Jo-Jo can hit the 3 at a much better rate and also is a much better free throw shooter
Jo-Jo's Skillset > Dream
Jo-Jo > PPG Than Dream Jo-Jo > RPG Than Dream Jo-Jo > APG Than Dream Jo-Jo > 3PT% Than Dream Jo-Jo > FT% Than Dream
I love Dream, but Jo-Jo's Skillset > Dream
I like Jo-Jo's Dream Shake a little better too -
Nothing you said changes my argument. Olajuwon was a more dominant player in his prime than Embiid is now, and he was a better post player. Look at Dream's averages from 92-93 to 95-96. 27 PPG, 11.7 TRB, 3.6 AST, 1.7 STL, 3.6 BLK, 52% from the floor. Here are Embiid's for comparison. He's a great player, but Olajuwon in his absolute prime was a better all around player, it isn't up for debate. 3s are irrelevant because centers didn't shoot threes back then. The defensive stats alone prove Dream was much more dominant. And Olajuwon won two titles, two Finals MVPs and a league MVP in that span. He was an absolute force in the paint on both ends. That's dominance.
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Mar 2, 2021 22:47:45 GMT
Nope
Jo-Jo can hit the 3 at a much better rate and also is a much better free throw shooter
Jo-Jo's Skillset > Dream
Jo-Jo > PPG Than Dream Jo-Jo > RPG Than Dream Jo-Jo > APG Than Dream Jo-Jo > 3PT% Than Dream Jo-Jo > FT% Than Dream
I love Dream, but Jo-Jo's Skillset > Dream
I like Jo-Jo's Dream Shake a little better too -
Nothing you said changes my argument. Olajuwon was a more dominant player in his prime than Embiid is now, and he was a better post player. Look at Dream's averages from 92-93 to 95-96. 27 PPG, 11.7 TRB, 3.6 AST, 1.7 STL, 3.6 BLK, 52% from the floor. Here are Embiid's for comparison. He's a great player, but Olajuwon in his absolute prime was a better all around player, it isn't up for debate. 3s are irrelevant because centers didn't shoot threes back then. The defensive stats alone prove Dream was much more dominant. And Olajuwon won two titles, two Finals MVPs and a league MVP in that span. He was an absolute force in the paint on both ends. That's dominance. No.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Mar 2, 2021 22:59:44 GMT
Nope
Jo-Jo can hit the 3 at a much better rate and also is a much better free throw shooter
Jo-Jo's Skillset > Dream
Jo-Jo > PPG Than Dream Jo-Jo > RPG Than Dream Jo-Jo > APG Than Dream Jo-Jo > 3PT% Than Dream Jo-Jo > FT% Than Dream
I love Dream, but Jo-Jo's Skillset > Dream
I like Jo-Jo's Dream Shake a little better too -
Nothing you said changes my argument. Olajuwon was a more dominant player in his prime than Embiid is now, and he was a better post player. Look at Dream's averages from 92-93 to 95-96. 27 PPG, 11.7 TRB, 3.6 AST, 1.7 STL, 3.6 BLK, 52% from the floor. Here are Embiid's for comparison. He's a great player, but Olajuwon in his absolute prime was a better all around player, it isn't up for debate. 3s are irrelevant because centers didn't shoot threes back then. The defensive stats alone prove Dream was much more dominant. And Olajuwon won two titles, two Finals MVPs and a league MVP in that span. He was an absolute force in the paint on both ends. That's dominance. Agree with all this here but my only question is, do you think he’d have those two rings if not for Jordan’s mini-retirement?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 2, 2021 23:46:29 GMT
Nothing you said changes my argument. Olajuwon was a more dominant player in his prime than Embiid is now, and he was a better post player. Look at Dream's averages from 92-93 to 95-96. 27 PPG, 11.7 TRB, 3.6 AST, 1.7 STL, 3.6 BLK, 52% from the floor. Here are Embiid's for comparison. He's a great player, but Olajuwon in his absolute prime was a better all around player, it isn't up for debate. 3s are irrelevant because centers didn't shoot threes back then. The defensive stats alone prove Dream was much more dominant. And Olajuwon won two titles, two Finals MVPs and a league MVP in that span. He was an absolute force in the paint on both ends. That's dominance. Agree with all this here but my only question is, do you think he’d have those two rings if not for Jordan’s mini-retirement? As a Jordan fan I say the Bulls would've swept the Finals for eight straight years, but everyone says Jordan would've tired out. Who knows? What I do know is Olajuwon's numbers wouldn't have been changed by Jordan's presence, and he still would've made it at least to the finals those two years. Embiid hasn't even made a conference Finals in a weaker conference. I'm a known Embiid hater, but I'm not saying he's a bum. Frogs is just swimming in hyperbole as usual. If he were to say, "Embiid is more versatile than Olajuwon offensively," or "Embiid is playing at an MVP level right now," these are defensible positions to take. To say Embiid is a better overall player or more dominant than peak Olajuwon is just plain wrong.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Mar 3, 2021 4:30:32 GMT
I just don't see it. Guys who are hitting 50 are usually in tight meaningful game minutes to close out. 100 in today's game would surely mean a team is enjoying a rout, or like Kobe's 81 down 14 at the half, someone who says fcuk it & shoots everything. They'd have to be on the floor nearly the entire time & shooting everything they touched. Wilt was lobbed the ball by his teammates most of the game I've read, & his dominating height he was either scoring or being fouled - & making his free throws like none since.
Steph's high is 62, & I guess he could've hit 80 on a hotter shooting % night... then again, how many boards are dished back out to him? His misses can't all have just been automatic change of possession. David Robinson's 71 is maybe as close we get to a big man again.
It would probably have to be someone like Lillard who's hitting nearly all his 3's, being fouled to hit free throws & stop the clock, & staying in more than 40 minutes (at least) to chase the record. Dame's high is currently (only) 61.
I think 100 in an overtime game would politely include an asterisk, I can't imagine anyone thinking 104 points from double OT is mightier than Wilt's 100 regulation.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Mar 3, 2021 4:42:16 GMT
re. the Olajuwon - Embiid stuff... with all due respect, who's Embiid posting up every night? Aron Baynes?
Dream carried his Rockets to back to back rings.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 3, 2021 13:31:38 GMT
I just pulled up Basketball Reference.com to check out how good that team was and my jaw just dropped at the final scores during that year
They scored 169 points that game - but routinely scored in the 130s - opposition routinely scored in the 130s, 140s, 150s - I expected to see something more like 90s basketball
I can see 3 times combined where either they or the opposition scored less than 100 points - for the entire season
This is the complete opposite of what I expected to see
I guess there was no defense back then
Scoring was actually at it's peak in the 60s. In 62, the average scoring was 118 and for the decade, it was on the higher end. Even the so-called "tough" 80s, the average scoring for the decade was 109. They scored a lot. The so-called "physical" defense during these eras was exaggerated. Nobody said the 60s was the era of physical defense-- but you had more leeway in terms of physicality in those days than you do today. The Celtics routinely averaged in the 120s back in those days, and they had the best defensive center ever. The game was more up tempo overall compared to what it became in the late 80s/90s. The bully ball style made popular by the Bad Boy Pistons made basketball a slog at times in the 90s. If you go back and watch games from even ten years ago you'll see an enormous difference in style of play compared to today. Terms like 'no layups' or 'playoff foul' didn't come from nowhere. You sent messages back then, today you might get tossed if your arm hits the guy in the head after you block his shot. Things only got uglier when they moved the 3 point line closer, in 94-95 through 96-97. The idea was to open up the game with more threes, but it backfired. Shooting percentages plummeted because now every backup center thought he should shoot threes; and with the line being closer, it was actually easier for the defense to rotate out to 3 point shooters. Look at the final scores from the 1998 Finals. These were the best two teams in the league featuring multiple Hall of Fame players on both sides. Bully ball, and then collecting big men to hack defenders became the trend once Shaq came into the league. It was almost like hockey, you had guys who were there to score and guys who were there to collect fouls and slow down the other team's offensive flow. There isn't any exaggeration about the physicality of those eras. Go back and watch the games. The Pistons were insane. Watch the Pistons/Bulls in their heyday. Hell, watch McHale clothesline Rambis in the 84 Finals and not get thrown out. Watch Parish literally punch Bill Laimbeer multiple times in the middle of the game, and they didn't even call a foul. This was revenge for this, by the way. You can easily fall down a rabbit hole on youtube of hard fouls and brawls that erupted in those days. Still think the physicality is exaggerated? Can't wait to see Steph Curry mixing it up like this.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Mar 3, 2021 13:36:13 GMT
re. the Olajuwon - Embiid stuff... with all due respect, who's Embiid posting up every night? Aron Baynes? Dream carried his Rockets to back to back rings. Remember the time Dream demolished Robinson in the playoffs when Robinson won MVP during the regular season? Is there anyone in the league right now that even compares to David Robinson, let alone Olajuwon?
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Post by twothousandonemark on Mar 3, 2021 13:42:26 GMT
re. the Olajuwon - Embiid stuff... with all due respect, who's Embiid posting up every night? Aron Baynes? Dream carried his Rockets to back to back rings. Remember the time Dream demolished Robinson in the playoffs when Robinson won MVP during the regular season? Is there anyone in the league right now that even compares to David Robinson, let alone Olajuwon? 2021 I suppose if the Lakers HC LeBron James chose to go 1-1 with Embiid, & the Sixers somehow won?
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