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Post by teleadm on May 12, 2017 17:12:27 GMT
...than they should have been. Some movie should have been 99 minutes but is only 96 minutes, did they cut scenes away, No! it has to do with pictures per second on a projector and showing them on TV, 24 pictures per second on a projector, but when they showed movies on tv they had to speed it up to 25 frames per seconds, for the eye that doesn't matter. That was the easy part. Long movie get's shorter when watched on TV, but there is no actual cuts.
But there are still examples of movies that is shorter than they shoild have been, In Old Chicago 1937 and The Four Feathers 1939, both should have been around 95 minutes but yet available , versions are around 85 minutes, with the math above there is at least 7 to 8 minutes missing, Fox and Alexander Korda obviously must have cut some scenes, My guess about Four Feathers has something to do with after WW2 and about changing times, changing sensitivities about people from Africa (Today called racism) was cut away by Korda's London pictures themselves.
Even something as innocent like Marx Brothers A Night at the Opera has scenes cut There is supposed to have been some earlier scenes where one singer left over to an another (like a hurdle race) and actually starts in the middle of something, but all scenes that could remind of Italy were cut (during WW2), and is apparently lost.
Anyone has more examples of movies that should have veen longer?
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on May 12, 2017 17:27:30 GMT
On the one hand, a lot of 1940s b-westerns only survive in copies heavily edited for television. On the other hand, some historical footage that would have been lost only survives because of copies made for TV retrospectives.
So you win some, you lose some.
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Post by teleadm on May 12, 2017 17:34:08 GMT
Yes I've heard about Gene Autry and Roy Rogers and even Sherlock Holmes Universal movies that was cut down to fill hour slots
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on May 12, 2017 17:39:41 GMT
Yes I've heard about Gene Autry and Roy Rogers and even Sherlock Holmes Universal movies that was cut down to fill hour slots I don't remember the name of the film, but I've heard of a film (maybe 1970s?) that had additional scenes for the TV broadcast? That's a reverse! A lot of films were edited when distributed in the UK or U.S, For example, the New Zealand film Rewi's Last Stand (1940) only survives in a heavily edited version shown in the UK. The distributers in those countries did a lot of nasty editing...
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on May 12, 2017 17:51:01 GMT
It's in the Bag (1944) was considered a lost film for years, it has since turned up in an incomplete copy (which is missing the opening titles and other footage). It's now on DVD!
Danny Boy (1941) was also considered a lost film, it too has turned up in incomplete form (from a collector's 16mm print according to one source) and appears on DVD. I watched it this week, nice slice of WW2-era entertainment depicting life on the home front, and the cuts in the film are not obvious.
A lot of low-budget films were edited when re-issued to cash in on the fame of a star. Boots! Boots! (1934) was re-issued several years after release in heavily edited form to cash in on the fame of actor-singer George Formby. For years this edited version was the only copy available, but some?/all? of the lost footage has turned up in lower-quality and is included on the DVD release.
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Post by teleadm on May 12, 2017 17:53:12 GMT
Many of the Universal movies had additional scenes when the had USA TV-premieres to fill a three hour slot, thankfully non of those addictionals scenes are on DVD versions
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Post by mattgarth on May 12, 2017 17:57:00 GMT
Dracon -- I believe that was the 1976 theatrical film TWO MINUTE WARNING, starring Charlton Heston and an all-star cast of mostly TV performers. That version dealt with a sniper picking off attendees at a football playoff or bowl game. The sniper's motive was left unexplained.
But for the extended television version, the shooting spree was a distraction so that a nearby bank or art theft could be perpetrated while the police were otherwise occupied over at the stadium.
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Post by teleadm on May 12, 2017 18:00:32 GMT
Dracon -- I believe that was the 1976 theatrical film TWO MINUTE WARNING, starring Charlton Heston and an all-star cast of mostly TV perfomers. That version dealt with a sniper picking off attendees at a football playoff or bowl game. The sniper's motive was left unexplained. But for the extended television version, the shooting spree was a distraction so that a nearby bank or art theft could be perpetrated while the police were otherwise occupied over at the stadium. Never heard of that version! but intersesting just the same, so they changed the culprit.....mmm
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on May 12, 2017 18:01:27 GMT
Tillie's Punctured Romance (1914) was re-issued in increasingly shorter and shorter form during the 1930s/1940s. Thankfully, the film has been reconstructed from several sources in recent years.
A lot of previously lost films exist in incomplete form, such as The Toll of the Sea (1922). This also applies with TV, for example a previously-lost episode of "What's My Line?" from 1950 turned up a few months ago and is missing several minutes of footage.
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Post by teleadm on May 12, 2017 18:21:24 GMT
Tillie's Punctured Romance (1914) was re-issued in increasingly shorter and shorter form during the 1930s/1940s. Thankfully, the film has been reconstructed from several sources in recent years. A lot of previously lost films exist in incomplete form, such as The Toll of the Sea (1922). This also applies with TV, for example a previously-lost episode of "What's My Line?" from 1950 turned up a few months ago and is missing several minutes of footage. There is an early expermenal colour version of "What's my Line?" (Damn I love those shows) with Gina Lollobrigida that is called lost. I salute those persons who try to get together lost movies, with a wheel here and a wheel there, and puzzle them together
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on May 12, 2017 18:26:28 GMT
Tillie's Punctured Romance (1914) was re-issued in increasingly shorter and shorter form during the 1930s/1940s. Thankfully, the film has been reconstructed from several sources in recent years. A lot of previously lost films exist in incomplete form, such as The Toll of the Sea (1922). This also applies with TV, for example a previously-lost episode of "What's My Line?" from 1950 turned up a few months ago and is missing several minutes of footage. There is an early expermenal colour version of "What's my Line?" (Damn I love those shows) with Gina Lollobrigida that is called lost. I salute those persons who try to get together lost movies, with a wheel here and a wheel there, and puzzle them together One film that had to be reconstructed into SHORTER form is Charlie Chaplin's A Burlesque on Carmen (1915). Essanay, the production company, re-issued it several years after release into a longer version, which Charlie Chaplin considered to ruin the film. A reconstructed version of how the film originally appeared was created some time ago, and is a lot better than the expanded edition.
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on May 12, 2017 18:38:34 GMT
When Charlie Chaplin re-issued The Kid (1921) decades later, he cut a number of scenes from the film. These scenes have yet to be re-inserted into the film even though the footage still exists.
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Post by teleadm on May 12, 2017 18:47:46 GMT
There is an early expermenal colour version of "What's my Line?" (Damn I love those shows) with Gina Lollobrigida that is called lost. I salute those persons who try to get together lost movies, with a wheel here and a wheel there, and puzzle them together One film that had to be reconstructed into SHORTER form is Charlie Chaplin's A Burlesque on Carmen (1915). Essanay, the production company, re-issued it several years after release into a longer version, which Charlie Chaplin considered to ruin the film. A reconstructed version of how the film originally appeared was created some time ago, and is a lot better than the expanded edition. Yes this sounds possible, since Chaplin himself begun to compose music for his own silents
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Post by Doghouse6 on May 12, 2017 19:04:18 GMT
There is an early expermenal colour version of "What's my Line?" (Damn I love those shows) with Gina Lollobrigida that is called lost. I salute those persons who try to get together lost movies, with a wheel here and a wheel there, and puzzle them together Oh, yes, What's My Line? was a delight. Each episode was like a brief but elegant Manhattan party with guests who were knowledgeable, witty, erudite and sophisticated. That color episode originally aired on Jan 1, 1967 and still survives, but only as a B&W kinescope, as with the rest of the episodes of the 1950 - 1967 edition of the show. It's too bad (and a bit silly) that they weren't preserved on videotape once it came into use in the mid-'50s; they'd not only look better today, but it would have been cheaper than the kinescope system they continued to use for another decade.
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Post by teleadm on May 12, 2017 19:11:06 GMT
There is an early expermenal colour version of "What's my Line?" (Damn I love those shows) with Gina Lollobrigida that is called lost. I salute those persons who try to get together lost movies, with a wheel here and a wheel there, and puzzle them together Oh, yes, What's My Line? was a delight. Each episode was like a brief but elegant Manhattan party with guests who were knowledgeable, witty, erudite and sophisticated. That color episode originally aired on Jan 1, 1967 and still survives, but only as a B&W kinescope, as with the rest of the episodes of the 1950 - 1967 edition of the show. It's too bad (and a bit silly) that they weren't preserved on videotape once it came into use in the mid-'50s; they'd not only look better today, but it would have been cheaper than the kinescope system they continued to use for another decade. Though this is flivvering away from original subject, Salvador Dali guest apparences is hilarious
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on May 12, 2017 19:39:21 GMT
There is an early expermenal colour version of "What's my Line?" (Damn I love those shows) with Gina Lollobrigida that is called lost. I salute those persons who try to get together lost movies, with a wheel here and a wheel there, and puzzle them together Oh, yes, What's My Line? was a delight. Each episode was like a brief but elegant Manhattan party with guests who were knowledgeable, witty, erudite and sophisticated. That color episode originally aired on Jan 1, 1967 and still survives, but only as a B&W kinescope, as with the rest of the episodes of the 1950 - 1967 edition of the show. It's too bad (and a bit silly) that they weren't preserved on videotape once it came into use in the mid-'50s; they'd not only look better today, but it would have been cheaper than the kinescope system they continued to use for another decade. I'm in the middle of watching a film, but checked this forum during a break. Video tape CAN look better, but you overlook that video-tapes of the 1950s are extremely difficult to digitise, and deteriorate a lot faster than kinescopes, to the point that many tapes now look worse than kinescopes. "What's My Line?" started being recorded on B&W video-tape in the late-1950s, but these episodes survive as kinescopes because it was cheaper to re-use the tape for other programming (video-tape was very expensive in those days). Many video-taped shows of the 1950s/1960s survive as kinescopes for this reason. The final season was recorded on colour video-tape , but again, it was cheaper to keep B&W kinescopes (colour video tape was very expensive). There are actually several dozen lost episodes of the series. Many 1950-1952 episodes were simply discarded by CBS, and other episodes (as recent as 1967) are also lost.
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Post by Matthew the Swordsman on May 12, 2017 21:32:32 GMT
Not sure if anyone cares, but I just watched one of the films I mentioned above, Boots! Boots! (1934, UK, 71 minutes). Zero-budget comedy/musical, has some laughs. Surprised to see a stereotypical gay character appear for a few moments. The once-lost but now recovered scenes include a funny moment where the lead character gets sprayed with a seltzer bottle, always good for a laugh.
Getting back on topic, I'm pretty sure that It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World (1963) was/is missing some footage from the original release (or am I wrong?).
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Post by manfromplanetx on May 12, 2017 22:28:31 GMT
Many classic films were cut in length and edited for reasons the studio executives considered, to improve the film's commercial viability, and to fit in with double bill marketing strategies.
Budd Boetticher's Bullfighter and the Lady (1951) was originally 124 minutes but was shortened when the studio heads balked at it's length. For the film's American theatrical release, Bullfighter and the Lady was cut to 87 minutes in order to share a double bill, and up until recently this shortened version was the only one available. Thanks to The UCLA Film Archive this excellent film was restored to its full 124 minute length and released onto DVD in 2013.
The Wicker Man (1973) was originally a 99 min film but was cut back for marketing reasons to 87 min for it's theatrical release, despite reservations about the affect on the film's continuity, it was released on a double bill with Don't Look Now. Director Robin Hardy sought to restore the narrative structure, some of the erotic elements which had been removed, and a very brief pre-title segment, tracking down the original elements a 96-minute restored version was released in January 1979. There are now three versions which recently became available as a set, UK theatrical cut 84 min, The Final Cut 91min and the Director's Cut 99 min
Tod Browning's classic The Unknown (1927) currently only exists in a shortened 50 min version of the original copyrighted 7 reel run time. It wasn't until 1968 that the film was rediscovered, thought forever lost it, the incomplete version was found in France among hundreds of film cans marked l'inconnued (unknown), hopefully one day the missing few scenes will be found, however the structure of the film story as we know it is relatively unaffected
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Post by Doghouse6 on May 12, 2017 22:37:18 GMT
Oh, yes, What's My Line? was a delight. Each episode was like a brief but elegant Manhattan party with guests who were knowledgeable, witty, erudite and sophisticated. That color episode originally aired on Jan 1, 1967 and still survives, but only as a B&W kinescope, as with the rest of the episodes of the 1950 - 1967 edition of the show. It's too bad (and a bit silly) that they weren't preserved on videotape once it came into use in the mid-'50s; they'd not only look better today, but it would have been cheaper than the kinescope system they continued to use for another decade. I'm in the middle of watching a film, but checked this forum during a break. Video tape CAN look better, but you overlook that video-tapes of the 1950s are extremely difficult to digitise, and deteriorate a lot faster than kinescopes, to the point that many tapes now look worse than kinescopes. "What's My Line?" started being recorded on B&W video-tape in the late-1950s, but these episodes survive as kinescopes because it was cheaper to re-use the tape for other programming (video-tape was very expensive in those days). Many video-taped shows of the 1950s/1960s survive as kinescopes for this reason. The final season was recorded on colour video-tape , but again, it was cheaper to keep B&W kinescopes (colour video tape was very expensive). There are actually several dozen lost episodes of the series. Many 1950-1952 episodes were simply discarded by CBS, and other episodes (as recent as 1967) are also lost. If you'll forgive me, Mr. Dacron, based on what I recall from my work in television post-production and distribution 30-plus years ago, I'd challenge some of those assertions. With video or film, storage and handling together represent the single most significant factor impacting the durability of either medium. We often dealt with decades-old and functionally obsolete original 2" masters that were technically every bit as viable as the 1" ones being produced at the time, and it holds just as true for video as for film that recent material can suffer degradation more advanced than that from decades earlier, depending on those two factors. I'm afraid I know little about digitizing, as that postdates my time in the industry, so unless you can explain it to me, I know of no reason in theory that there should be any more difficulty in doing so with videotape from 1958 than with that from 1998. Although constant advancements and refinements were made to videotape substrates and oxide coating, recording equipment, cameras and displays, the NTSC specs adopted for color origination and broadcast remained constant for over 40 years from their adoption in 1953. If both the source elements and the hardware they require are available and viable, I'm unclear on any age-dependent technical barriers to digital encoding. I do realize it was common practice to recycle videotape, but it was a penny-wise/pound-foolish approach that, as I understand it, had more to do with short-sightedness about future revenue potential for ancillary distribution. Once initial investments in new hardware had been made, duplication and distribution utilizing even the earliest Quadruplex video system immediately became less expensive than the lab costs associated with doing so on film, and very few series were kinescoped for either archival or long-term distribution purposes. Inasmuch as a show like What's My Line? was broadcast by CBS, I might take a wild guess that producers/owners Goodson-Todman chose to continue kinescoping as they had in the pre-videotape days to avoid allowing the network to amortize the costs of their own equipment upgrades into the budget of their show for preserving it on videotape. While it's probably a near certainty that neither they nor anyone else at the time imagined the market for those shows a half-century hence, I consider their decision, whatever the reason, to have been ill-considered.
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Post by teleadm on May 13, 2017 17:34:45 GMT
Getting back on topic, I'm pretty sure that It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World (1963) was/is missing some footage from the original release (or am I wrong?). I used to have It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World 1963 on videotape from the eighties, and that was a pan and scan version, and many scenes in that version seamed to make no sense, Buster Keaton scenes for example where he's hardly seen, seeing the wide screen version nowdays on DVD and many scenes that I thought where cut but maybe not, maybe was there but seemed different because of the many things that get lost with pan and scan TV versions.
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