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Post by phludowin on Mar 7, 2021 19:10:05 GMT
7 Mar 2021
Swiss voters have narrowly approved a proposal to ban face coverings in a decision that critics branded Islamophobic and sexist.
Official results showed that 51.2 percent of voters, and a majority of federal Switzerland’s cantons, supported the proposal.
Some 1,426,992 voters were in favour of the ban, while 1,359,621 were against, on a 50.8 percent turnout.
The vote comes after years of debate in Switzerland following similar bans in other European countries, despite Muslim women wearing full-face veils being an exceptionally rare sight in Swiss streets.
Even though the far-right proposal “Yes to a ban on full facial coverings” did not mention the burqa or the niqab, local politicians, media and campaigners dubbed it the “burqa ban”.
Campaign posters reading “Stop radical Islam!” and “Stop extremism!”, featuring a woman in a black niqab – a veil worn by some Muslim women which, in addition to a headscarf, covers the lower half of the face – have been plastered around Swiss cities.
Rival posters read: “No to an absurd, useless and Islamophobic ‘anti-burqa’ law”.
A town official sorts through envelopes containing votes at their arrival at the counting centre the day of a Swiss vote on banning face coverings in a referendum in Lausanne, Switzerland [Denis Balibouse/Reuters] The measure will outlaw covering one’s face in public places like restaurants, sports stadiums, public transport or simply walking in the street.
It foresees exceptions at religious sites and for security or health reasons, such as face masks people are wearing now to protect against COVID-19, as well as for traditional Carnival celebrations. Authorities have two years to draw up detailed legislation.
The Yes vote risks “trivialising the xenophobic and racist atmosphere” towards Muslim women, Meriam Mastour, of the Purple Headscarves feminist group, told broadcaster RTS.
The vote compounded Switzerland’s tense relationship with Islam after citizens voted in 2009 to ban the building of any new minarets. Two cantons already have local bans on face coverings. The Swiss government and Parliament opposed a nationwide ban.
Practically no one in Switzerland wears a burqa – a full-body veil that covers the face as well – and only about 30 women wear the niqab, according to estimates by the University of Lucerne. Muslims make up 5 percent of the Swiss population of 8.6 million people, most with roots in Turkey, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo.
France banned the wearing of a full-face veil in public in 2011 and Denmark, Austria, the Netherlands and Bulgaria have full or partial bans on wearing face coverings in public.
Amnesty International has called the face veil ban “a dangerous policy that violates women’s rights, including freedom of expression and religion”. A victory for secularism.
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Post by Isapop on Mar 7, 2021 20:30:16 GMT
If, as the article says, the Swiss government and Parliament oppose a nationwide ban, do they have the option to refuse to enact this ban into law?
I see no justification for such a ban. This seems less a victory for secularism, and more a victory for intolerance.
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Post by goz on Mar 7, 2021 22:06:05 GMT
I really don't like discrimination and intolerance so I would not be in favour of telling women what they can and can't wear. In this case it discrimnates BOTH against women and a religion. NOT cool. You can still have secular law and a level of cultural religious tolerance.
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Post by phludowin on Mar 7, 2021 22:13:22 GMT
I really don't like discrimination and intolerance so I would not be in favour of telling women what they can and can't wear. In this case it discrimnates BOTH against women and a religion. NOT cool. You can still have secular law and a level of cultural religious tolerance. The Taliban and the Iranian Ayatollahs have no problem with telling women what to wear. So I appreciate the Swiss people saying no to that.
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Post by goz on Mar 7, 2021 22:15:19 GMT
I really don't like discrimination and intolerance so I would not be in favour of telling women what they can and can't wear. In this case it discrimnates BOTH against women and a religion. NOT cool. You can still have secular law and a level of cultural religious tolerance. The Taliban and the Iranian Ayatollahs have no problem with telling women what to wear. So I appreciate the Swiss people saying no to that. You forget that in a free society, many women may want to wear signals of their beliefs and culture. I thought that is what a free society is all about?
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Post by phludowin on Mar 7, 2021 22:18:26 GMT
The Taliban and the Iranian Ayatollahs have no problem with telling women what to wear. So I appreciate the Swiss people saying no to that. You forget that in a free society, many women may want to wear signals of their beliefs and culture. I thought that is what a free society is all about? They still can wear signals. Just not a full-face coverage. In my opinion, the society has the right to tell people not to wear particular items. I don't know if I'd be ok with people wearing swastikas.
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,655
Likes: 1,275
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Post by The Lost One on Mar 7, 2021 22:25:38 GMT
The Taliban and the Iranian Ayatollahs have no problem with telling women what to wear. So I appreciate the Swiss people saying no to that. But this isn't the Swiss saying no to that. They're dictating what women should wear, just in the opposite way to the Taliban/ Ayatollah.
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,655
Likes: 1,275
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Post by The Lost One on Mar 7, 2021 22:27:03 GMT
You forget that in a free society, many women may want to wear signals of their beliefs and culture. I thought that is what a free society is all about? They still can wear signals. Just not a full-face coverage. In my opinion, the society has the right to tell people not to wear particular items. I don't know if I'd be ok with people wearing swastikas. Bit of a difference surely? Wearing a face covering is not a signal that you support ethnic cleansing.
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Mar 7, 2021 22:32:20 GMT
I really don't like discrimination and intolerance so I would not be in favour of telling women what they can and can't wear. In this case it discrimnates BOTH against women and a religion. NOT cool. You can still have secular law and a level of cultural religious tolerance. Don’t be absurd. Every country in the world tells women (and men as well) what they can and can’t wear. Banning face coverings is not fundamentally different from banning men from showing their penis in public.
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Post by goz on Mar 7, 2021 22:33:06 GMT
You forget that in a free society, many women may want to wear signals of their beliefs and culture. I thought that is what a free society is all about? They still can wear signals. Just not a full-face coverage. In my opinion, the society has the right to tell people not to wear particular items. I don't know if I'd be ok with people wearing swastikas. It should be all about 'freedom of choice'. IMHO
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Mar 7, 2021 22:33:40 GMT
The Taliban and the Iranian Ayatollahs have no problem with telling women what to wear. So I appreciate the Swiss people saying no to that. You forget that in a free society, many women may want to wear signals of their beliefs and culture. I thought that is what a free society is all about? There should be ZERO tolerance for the belief that women should never show their faces in public.
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Post by goz on Mar 7, 2021 22:37:11 GMT
I really don't like discrimination and intolerance so I would not be in favour of telling women what they can and can't wear. In this case it discrimnates BOTH against women and a religion. NOT cool. You can still have secular law and a level of cultural religious tolerance. Don’t be absurd. Every country in the world tells women (and men as well) what they can and can’t wear. Banning face coverings is not fundamentally different from banning men from showing their penis in public. It is, or should be, in a free society about freedom of choice in matters of everyday apparel for both sexes. The issue of sexual coverage in my opinion is not part of the same issue. It is more of a health and safety issue as we go about our daily lives, and the inherent dangers of an uncovered sexual organ both for the owner and society at large in sanitation and other issues.
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Post by goz on Mar 7, 2021 22:38:20 GMT
You forget that in a free society, many women may want to wear signals of their beliefs and culture. I thought that is what a free society is all about? There should be ZERO tolerance for the belief that women should never show their faces in public. It should be freedom of choice for the women ...like most things actuall, unless they are illegal. Face covering is not and should never be a legal issue.
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Mar 7, 2021 22:41:38 GMT
Don’t be absurd. Every country in the world tells women (and men as well) what they can and can’t wear. Banning face coverings is not fundamentally different from banning men from showing their penis in public. It is, or should be, in a free society about freedom of choice in matters of everyday apparel for both sexes. The issue of sexual coverage in my opinion is not part of the same issue. It is more of a health and safety issue as we go about our daily lives, and the inherent dangers of an uncovered sexual organ both for the owner and society at large in sanitation and other issues. Your opinion is wrong. The reason why full public nudity is banned everywhere has nothing to do with health and safety. It is because it goes against the values of every country. Just like the notion that women shouldn’t show their faces in public goes against the values of Switzerland.
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Post by phludowin on Mar 7, 2021 22:46:24 GMT
They still can wear signals. Just not a full-face coverage. In my opinion, the society has the right to tell people not to wear particular items. I don't know if I'd be ok with people wearing swastikas. Bit of a difference surely? Really?
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Post by goz on Mar 7, 2021 22:47:09 GMT
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Mar 7, 2021 22:50:21 GMT
Are you going to seriously attempt to argue that “health and safety” are prominent among the reasons why every country in the world have had laws banning public nudity for centuries?
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Post by mystery on Mar 7, 2021 22:53:32 GMT
Eh. I'm not so sure that this is really for the women's benefit. Honestly, I think a lot of Westerners are quite unnerved by the sight of a burka. Including me. I was traveling in some remote parts of Morocco where the women wore the classic long black burkas, with their face and eyes completely obscured, and I found it pretty creepy. I associated it with Muslim extremism. I was exploring a ksar, and one of the scary burka ladies approached me and invited me back to her house for tea, and then I ended up having dinner with her family. She showed me around the ksar and I met her friends, who were giggling under their burkas like regular human beings. That was one of the most eye opening experiences I've had from traveling, because I realized how prejudiced I was against them. I'm not sure I'd support this ban.
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Post by phludowin on Mar 7, 2021 23:06:56 GMT
Eh. I'm not so sure that this is really for the women's benefit. Honestly, I think a lot of Westerners are quite unnerved by the sight of a burka. Including me. I was traveling in some remote parts of Morocco where the women wore the classic long black burkas, with their face and eyes completely obscured, and I found it pretty creepy. I associated it with Muslim extremism. I was exploring a ksar, and one of the scary burka ladies approached me and invited me back to her house for tea, and then I ended up having dinner with her family. She showed me around the ksar and I met her friends, who were giggling under their burkas like regular human beings. That was one of the most eye opening experiences I've had from traveling, because I realized how prejudiced I was against them. I'm not sure I'd support this ban. If women want to wear a Burqa in the privacy of their home, they can do so. But in a secular society, you are supposed to show your face (unless you have to wear a mask to prevent a virus from spreading). Not being allowed to hide your face is common in central Europe; in Germany it's called "Vermummungsverbot". And not being allowed to wear a Burqa is not a discrimination of women; men are equally prohibited from wearing it in public in Switzerland.
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Post by mystery on Mar 7, 2021 23:13:58 GMT
Eh. I'm not so sure that this is really for the women's benefit. Honestly, I think a lot of Westerners are quite unnerved by the sight of a burka. Including me. I was traveling in some remote parts of Morocco where the women wore the classic long black burkas, with their face and eyes completely obscured, and I found it pretty creepy. I associated it with Muslim extremism. I was exploring a ksar, and one of the scary burka ladies approached me and invited me back to her house for tea, and then I ended up having dinner with her family. She showed me around the ksar and I met her friends, who were giggling under their burkas like regular human beings. That was one of the most eye opening experiences I've had from traveling, because I realized how prejudiced I was against them. I'm not sure I'd support this ban. If women want to wear a Burqa in the privacy of their home, they can do so. But in a secular society, you are supposed to show your face (unless you have to wear a mask to prevent a virus from spreading). Not being allowed to hide your face is common in central Europe; in Germany it's called "Vermummungsverbot". And not being allowed to wear a Burqa is not a discrimination of women; men are equally prohibited from wearing it in public in Switzerland. But for them, it's a matter of modesty and following their faith. They actually don't wear their burkas inside their homes. I still think this ban is mostly about fear of the Other. Is there any practical reason why women shouldn't be allowed to wear a burka? Is it about surveillance and security concerns?
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