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Post by taylorfirst1 on Mar 16, 2021 20:39:40 GMT
Just because he is no longer the stoic brain washed assassin doesn't mean he has overcome all of his traumas. Sometimes people who have traumas are very chatty.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 16, 2021 21:19:41 GMT
Just because he is no longer the stoic brain washed assassin doesn't mean he has overcome all of his traumas. Sometimes people who have traumas are very chatty. And usually these chatty people were chatty to begin with. But going from Bucky's personality as shown in CATWS to what is shown in this series... it's almost a completely different person. Had he been depicted the way they showed him in Civil War, that would have been more realistic.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Mar 16, 2021 21:59:35 GMT
Just because he is no longer the stoic brain washed assassin doesn't mean he has overcome all of his traumas. Sometimes people who have traumas are very chatty. And usually these chatty people were chatty to begin with. But going from Bucky's personality as shown in CATWS to what is shown in this series... it's almost a completely different person. Had he been depicted the way they showed him in Civil War, that would have been more realistic. He has gone back to the way he was before the brain washing, the way he was in The First Avenger (his real personality) but that doesn't mean he has overcome all of the trauma.
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Downey
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Post by Downey on Mar 16, 2021 22:00:09 GMT
Just because he is no longer the stoic brain washed assassin doesn't mean he has overcome all of his traumas. Sometimes people who have traumas are very chatty. And usually these chatty people were chatty to begin with. But going from Bucky's personality as shown in CATWS to what is shown in this series... it's almost a completely different person. Had he been depicted the way they showed him in Civil War, that would have been more realistic. You have an extremely unusual view of people. Bucky couldn't have stayed the same because of the countless alien invasions, robot apocalypses, the destruction of Hydra and the death of Alexander Pierce anyway. I don't think you've been watching these Marvel films as forensically as you claim.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 16, 2021 22:24:40 GMT
And usually these chatty people were chatty to begin with. But going from Bucky's personality as shown in CATWS to what is shown in this series... it's almost a completely different person. Had he been depicted the way they showed him in Civil War, that would have been more realistic. He has gone back to the way he was before the brain washing, the way he was in The First Avenger (his real personality) but that doesn't mean he has overcome all of the trauma. And that's what I'm saying. Him going back to the way he was after everything he's gone through is quite unrealistic. But then again, I've found these latter MCU movies and shows aren't great when it comes to character consistency.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 16, 2021 22:25:03 GMT
And usually these chatty people were chatty to begin with. But going from Bucky's personality as shown in CATWS to what is shown in this series... it's almost a completely different person. Had he been depicted the way they showed him in Civil War, that would have been more realistic. You have an extremely unusual view of people. Bucky couldn't have stayed the same because of the countless alien invasions, robot apocalypses, the destruction of Hydra and the death of Alexander Pierce anyway. I don't think you've been watching these Marvel films as forensically as you claim. Where did I claim that I watched MCU movies forensically?
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Downey
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Post by Downey on Mar 16, 2021 22:44:40 GMT
You have an extremely unusual view of people. Bucky couldn't have stayed the same because of the countless alien invasions, robot apocalypses, the destruction of Hydra and the death of Alexander Pierce anyway. I don't think you've been watching these Marvel films as forensically as you claim. Where did I claim that I watched MCU movies forensically? Then what are you doing here? I already sort of guessed you had no clue what you were talking about when you started saying that Bucky has made a full recovery when he still hasn't.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 17, 2021 17:55:10 GMT
Where did I claim that I watched MCU movies forensically? Then what are you doing here? I already sort of guessed you had no clue what you were talking about when you started saying that Bucky has made a full recovery when he still hasn't. Where did I say Bucky made a full recovery? Seems to me you're intentionally misrepresenting my words since you actually have no intelligent rebuttals to my points. That's called strawmanning.
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Downey
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Post by Downey on Mar 17, 2021 19:28:46 GMT
Then what are you doing here? I already sort of guessed you had no clue what you were talking about when you started saying that Bucky has made a full recovery when he still hasn't. Where did I say Bucky made a full recovery? Seems to me you're intentionally misrepresenting my words since you actually have no intelligent rebuttals to my points. That's called strawmanning. You're confused.
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Post by dazz on Mar 17, 2021 22:09:41 GMT
He has gone back to the way he was before the brain washing, the way he was in The First Avenger (his real personality) but that doesn't mean he has overcome all of the trauma. And that's what I'm saying. Him going back to the way he was after everything he's gone through is quite unrealistic. But then again, I've found these latter MCU movies and shows aren't great when it comes to character consistency. But has he though? and again you say unrealistic, it's the MCU, Wakandan's can shove metal balls off of a bracelet into fatal bullet holes and save peoples lives, a giant purple behomoth put on a gold jewel encrusted gauntlet and snapped away half of existence, Scarlett Witch can warp reality, and Peter Quil's mother fucked an entire planet...unrealistic is what they do. But again is he back to normal? I mean maybe somewhat he's spent years getting over his trauma, yes most people don't do that so easily, but most people don't have fully articulated robot arms and can outrun most motor vehicles, Bucky can, but then maybe he has good and bad moments, we haven't seen the series maybe thats something they want to wait to reveal in the show, you know not in an advert?
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 17, 2021 22:21:28 GMT
And that's what I'm saying. Him going back to the way he was after everything he's gone through is quite unrealistic. But then again, I've found these latter MCU movies and shows aren't great when it comes to character consistency. But has he though? and again you say unrealistic, it's the MCU, Wakandan's can shove metal balls off of a bracelet into fatal bullet holes and save peoples lives, a giant purple behomoth put on a gold jewel encrusted gauntlet and snapped away half of existence, Scarlett Witch can warp reality, and Peter Quil's mother fucked an entire planet...unrealistic is what they do. But again is he back to normal? I mean maybe somewhat he's spent years getting over his trauma, yes most people don't do that so easily, but most people don't have fully articulated robot arms and can outrun most motor vehicles, Bucky can, but then maybe he has good and bad moments, we haven't seen the series maybe thats something they want to wait to reveal in the show, you know not in an advert? And most people haven't been brainwashed and tortured by an undercover villanious organization and forced to work as an assassin for decades. And yes, there's a number of clearly fictional elements in the MCU but they still follow a certain logic. This isn't looney toons after all where anything goes. Even inserting ultra technologically advanced bracelet beads into a wound is not as unreasonable as say T'Challa smacking Everett on the head to cure his wound. Besides, the MCU already established that their characters are not immune to PTSD and trauma. I'm simply going off the standard they set And sure, maybe he will be shown to still be dealing with trauma in the show. But I'll judge the show when I see it. For now all we have are snippets and my comments are directly for those snippets. And I'm saying I don't like the way he's presented in those snippets because it's incongruent with his character arc. Look, I'm a huge MCU fan and I understand they can do whatever they want to these characters because it's their show, but that doesn't mean I turn a blind eye to bad writing when I see it.
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Post by dazz on Mar 18, 2021 12:27:44 GMT
But has he though? and again you say unrealistic, it's the MCU, Wakandan's can shove metal balls off of a bracelet into fatal bullet holes and save peoples lives, a giant purple behomoth put on a gold jewel encrusted gauntlet and snapped away half of existence, Scarlett Witch can warp reality, and Peter Quil's mother fucked an entire planet...unrealistic is what they do. But again is he back to normal? I mean maybe somewhat he's spent years getting over his trauma, yes most people don't do that so easily, but most people don't have fully articulated robot arms and can outrun most motor vehicles, Bucky can, but then maybe he has good and bad moments, we haven't seen the series maybe thats something they want to wait to reveal in the show, you know not in an advert? And most people haven't been brainwashed and tortured by an undercover villanious organization and forced to work as an assassin for decades. And yes, there's a number of clearly fictional elements in the MCU but they still follow a certain logic. This isn't looney toons after all where anything goes. Even inserting ultra technologically advanced bracelet beads into a wound is not as unreasonable as say T'Challa smacking Everett on the head to cure his wound. Besides, the MCU already established that their characters are not immune to PTSD and trauma. I'm simply going off the standard they set And sure, maybe he will be shown to still be dealing with trauma in the show. But I'll judge the show when I see it. For now all we have are snippets and my comments are directly for those snippets. And I'm saying I don't like the way he's presented in those snippets because it's incongruent with his character arc. Look, I'm a huge MCU fan and I understand they can do whatever they want to these characters because it's their show, but that doesn't mean I turn a blind eye to bad writing when I see it. But again you are ignoring the part where Bucky spent years being treated by Wakandan medical professionals, and in truth Bucky whilst a captive of Hydra for decades probably only experienced a short amount of time of actual time outside of stasis given how little he aged, he was seemingly pulled out for assignments and put away again. Plus did they ever show him actually having PTSD? Again some people manage to live through some horrific shit and are fine, Bucky's issue was seemingly to do with his brainwashing, once they cleared him of that he could potentially be fine. Besides didn't you have a major issue with them giving Thor a whole bunch of emotional issues after Infinity War in Endgame, like do which is the issue, that they have issues or that they don't?
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 18, 2021 22:57:07 GMT
And most people haven't been brainwashed and tortured by an undercover villanious organization and forced to work as an assassin for decades. And yes, there's a number of clearly fictional elements in the MCU but they still follow a certain logic. This isn't looney toons after all where anything goes. Even inserting ultra technologically advanced bracelet beads into a wound is not as unreasonable as say T'Challa smacking Everett on the head to cure his wound. Besides, the MCU already established that their characters are not immune to PTSD and trauma. I'm simply going off the standard they set And sure, maybe he will be shown to still be dealing with trauma in the show. But I'll judge the show when I see it. For now all we have are snippets and my comments are directly for those snippets. And I'm saying I don't like the way he's presented in those snippets because it's incongruent with his character arc. Look, I'm a huge MCU fan and I understand they can do whatever they want to these characters because it's their show, but that doesn't mean I turn a blind eye to bad writing when I see it. But again you are ignoring the part where Bucky spent years being treated by Wakandan medical professionals, and in truth Bucky whilst a captive of Hydra for decades probably only experienced a short amount of time of actual time outside of stasis given how little he aged, he was seemingly pulled out for assignments and put away again. Plus did they ever show him actually having PTSD? Again some people manage to live through some horrific shit and are fine, Bucky's issue was seemingly to do with his brainwashing, once they cleared him of that he could potentially be fine. Besides didn't you have a major issue with them giving Thor a whole bunch of emotional issues after Infinity War in Endgame, like do which is the issue, that they have issues or that they don't? Thor has been a hardened warrior for over a thousand years, failed to kill off an enemy once (and not even the first time he's failed against an enemy) then went into PTSD. That's unrealistic because it completely ignores the strength of character one would have developed after thousands of years of battle. Someone that old, that experienced and that tough wouldn't completely crumple just because they almost killed their opponent but didn't quite finish it off. In comparison, Bucky was brainwashed and tortured for years by Hydra. He's had numerous counts of successful assassinations that he was made to do against his will. It is absolutely realistic that he's suffering from PTSD. My complaint about him is the exact same complaint I had with Thor: The personality change is too abrupt and inconsistent with their character arc. It's not whether they have issues or not, it's whether it makes sense or not given their character arc.
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Post by dazz on Mar 19, 2021 5:51:06 GMT
But again you are ignoring the part where Bucky spent years being treated by Wakandan medical professionals, and in truth Bucky whilst a captive of Hydra for decades probably only experienced a short amount of time of actual time outside of stasis given how little he aged, he was seemingly pulled out for assignments and put away again. Plus did they ever show him actually having PTSD? Again some people manage to live through some horrific shit and are fine, Bucky's issue was seemingly to do with his brainwashing, once they cleared him of that he could potentially be fine. Besides didn't you have a major issue with them giving Thor a whole bunch of emotional issues after Infinity War in Endgame, like do which is the issue, that they have issues or that they don't? Thor has been a hardened warrior for over a thousand years, failed to kill off an enemy once (and not even the first time he's failed against an enemy) then went into PTSD. That's unrealistic because it completely ignores the strength of character one would have developed after thousands of years of battle. Someone that old, that experienced and that tough wouldn't completely crumple just because they almost killed their opponent but didn't quite finish it off. In comparison, Bucky was brainwashed and tortured for years by Hydra. He's had numerous counts of successful assassinations that he was made to do against his will. It is absolutely realistic that he's suffering from PTSD. My complaint about him is the exact same complaint I had with Thor: The personality change is too abrupt and inconsistent with their character arc. It's not whether they have issues or not, it's whether it makes sense or not given their character arc. Except he's not Thor was shown in the first film to still be immature and childish, he saw war as a game, this is not someone who has lost a lot in his life, his comrades are alive and well with him in his merriment, it's not he failed to kill an opponent, his ego cost the lives of trillions, at a minimum, this right after his father died, his sister he never knew of returned, ripped out his eye and he had to leave to die, after she massacred most of his people including all but 2 of his friends, though one of whom is missing and we have no clue where she is, then Thanos comes, kicks his arse kills the last remaining old friend he has left and murders his brother slowly infront of him, and kills half of what remains of his people, he then gets a second chance and ego causes him to fail, which results in the snap, which means half of the remaining Asguardians also go bye bye, in basically a week Thor has been beaten by Hela twice, lost and eye lost at minimum 87.5% of his people, lost his father, lost his brother, lost all of his old friends, half of his new friends and half the universe entirely. This for a guy who what 8 years earlier had never suffered a meaningful loss which caused him to stop seeing war as a game meant for fun, and since this defeat has done nothing to try and fix himself, Bucky suffered years of abuse without a doubt, but he was also suffering abuse in CA:TFA and showed no signs of trauma from it, and he's spent years being treated by the most advanced scientific and medical system on the planet, and he wasn't even showing signs of PTSD really anyway, only mental programming which they broke, but before they did he was living a normal but isolated life due to being a war criminal basically, you implied a lot of this other stuff yourself that he's suffering trauma, that Thor was a hardened warrior, but the movies show the opposite, Thor was an immature man child playing at war because he liked it, had he seen death? sure but had he ever felt responsibility and failure before? probably not, nor was Bucky really shown having any real PTSD, and he was still chatty enough in those few post TWS movies given his limited screen time.
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Post by hobowar on Mar 19, 2021 10:23:58 GMT
But again you are ignoring the part where Bucky spent years being treated by Wakandan medical professionals, and in truth Bucky whilst a captive of Hydra for decades probably only experienced a short amount of time of actual time outside of stasis given how little he aged, he was seemingly pulled out for assignments and put away again. Plus did they ever show him actually having PTSD? Again some people manage to live through some horrific shit and are fine, Bucky's issue was seemingly to do with his brainwashing, once they cleared him of that he could potentially be fine. Besides didn't you have a major issue with them giving Thor a whole bunch of emotional issues after Infinity War in Endgame, like do which is the issue, that they have issues or that they don't? Thor has been a hardened warrior for over a thousand years, failed to kill off an enemy once (and not even the first time he's failed against an enemy) then went into PTSD. That's unrealistic because it completely ignores the strength of character one would have developed after thousands of years of battle. Someone that old, that experienced and that tough wouldn't completely crumple just because they almost killed their opponent but didn't quite finish it off. In comparison, Bucky was brainwashed and tortured for years by Hydra. He's had numerous counts of successful assassinations that he was made to do against his will. It is absolutely realistic that he's suffering from PTSD. My complaint about him is the exact same complaint I had with Thor: The personality change is too abrupt and inconsistent with their character arc. It's not whether they have issues or not, it's whether it makes sense or not given their character arc. I know they like to say Thor is a thousand years old but I've never once gotten the impression he was out of his twenties even.
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