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Post by dazz on Mar 19, 2021 19:25:38 GMT
They claim Whedon cut 90% of Snyder's stuff and reshot it, which if you take the 5 hour cut thing as gospel means Whedon only used about 30 minutes of Zack's footage, so he filmed 90 minutes of new footage, completely lightened up and redesigned certain CGI scenes and supposedly if Skaathar is even ballpark correct for only $20-30m more than what Snyder used to finish the same special effects as and film 1 or 2 additional scenes...that just does not sound right, Whedon cost about $90-100m to reshoot an entire movie from the ground up and do/redo all the effects from scratch compared to Snyder just needing to finish up the effects on a movie he was less than 6 months away from releasing to the public? Just sounds like PR spin and bullshit to me. I'm having a hard time finding the actual numbers but if I recall correctly, Snyder's original budget for JL was around $250 million. Whedon's additional scenes and reshoots pushed the budget to $300 million. Assuming it's true that majority of Snyder's scenes were already shot but 90% of those scenes weren't included in the final movie, then we're basically saying Whedon was able to create 90% of a block buster with just a $50 million budget. Even if we say there was some left over money from the original budget, it couldn't have been that much seeing as Snyder was supposedly close to finishing the movie when he left. So even if we make that $100 million that Whedon was allowed to work with... he still supposedly made almost an entire movie out of that budget. In comparison, Snyder was given a $70 million budget which he apparently used to shoot only one scene and add final VFX shots? The math doesn't compute. What I read says Snyder's original JL was budgets at $275m and he was 90% complete with the effects, which makes sense as they had enough of it done to show test audiences, which I doubt they would be doing with the effects being only midway done, either early or late stages I can see, mid stages not so much, but I could be wrong. So Whedon's reshoots and editing and stuff supposedly only added $25m to the cost of the movie, which given he supposedly reshot atleast like I said 75% of the movie he released and had to rebuild from the ground up this all sounds like a bunch on nonsense to me, now obviously he could have had more money they just didn't admit to, but surely by now that would have come out given all the other tea being spilt about that production right? But yeah the math does not add up, I think so many are just so engaged with the "victory" for Snyder and the Snyder Cut they willfully turn a blind eye to this to ensure the "win" some more, all to villify Snyder and demonise WB and DC even Whedon more, which is like they don't need you to make shit up to do that, WB/DC and Whedon have enough shit on their faces already, no need to add fake shit ontop of that to prove a point.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Mar 19, 2021 19:32:22 GMT
It’s two different types of venue, so why compare? In a TV show, the narrative is extended and the action spread out. In a movie, narrative and action are more compacted. To be fair, Falcon and Winter Soldier is composed of 6 episodes, around 40 minutes each which gives you about 240 minutes total which is pretty much the same runtime that Snyder's cut is. And The Falcon and Winter Soldier is more of a continuous form arc instead of an episodal format which makes it pretty similar to Snyder's cut which is continuous but cut into different chapters. Had the Falcon and Winter Soldier's entire season 1 dropped one time like Netflix does it then it would be pretty much nearly the same format as Snyder's JL. Even so, and without having seen either, I wouldn’t compare the two just as I wouldn’t compare a novella vs a novel. When I do see them, I’ll judge each on their merits. The narratives are set up differently, that’s all. Plus, I’m sick of these quality wars between the different fan groups. Why can’t we all just enjoy entertainment for what it is: entertainment.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 19, 2021 20:54:52 GMT
They claim Whedon cut 90% of Snyder's stuff and reshot it, which if you take the 5 hour cut thing as gospel means Whedon only used about 30 minutes of Zack's footage, so he filmed 90 minutes of new footage, completely lightened up and redesigned certain CGI scenes and supposedly if Skaathar is even ballpark correct for only $20-30m more than what Snyder used to finish the same special effects as and film 1 or 2 additional scenes...that just does not sound right, Whedon cost about $90-100m to reshoot an entire movie from the ground up and do/redo all the effects from scratch compared to Snyder just needing to finish up the effects on a movie he was less than 6 months away from releasing to the public? Just sounds like PR spin and bullshit to me. I'm having a hard time finding the actual numbers but if I recall correctly, Snyder's original budget for JL was around $250 million. Whedon's additional scenes and reshoots pushed the budget to $300 million. Assuming it's true that majority of Snyder's scenes were already shot but 90% of those scenes weren't included in the final movie, then we're basically saying Whedon was able to create 90% of a block buster with just a $50 million budget. Even if we say there was some left over money from the original budget, it couldn't have been that much seeing as Snyder was supposedly close to finishing the movie when he left. So even if we make that $100 million that Whedon was allowed to work with... he still supposedly made almost an entire movie out of that budget. In comparison, Snyder was given a $70 million budget which he apparently used to shoot only one scene and add final VFX shots? The math doesn't compute. From what I understand, they also had to pay the cast and crew as part of their contract, since the Snyder Cut is considered a different film. Also, the Whedon reshoots reportedly cost $25 million.
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Post by Skaathar on Mar 19, 2021 21:55:43 GMT
It’s two different types of venue, so why compare? In a TV show, the narrative is extended and the action spread out. In a movie, narrative and action are more compacted. Both shows have roughly the same amount of runtime. |
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Mar 19, 2021 22:22:28 GMT
It’s two different types of venue, so why compare? In a TV show, the narrative is extended and the action spread out. In a movie, narrative and action are more compacted. Both shows have roughly the same amount of runtime. I understand that, but episodic TV uses show runners, rather than a single director to maintain continuity and quality between the episodes. So they are filmed in a way differently from a feature length movie. Justice League is a special re-cut where Snyder has had privilege to reassemble his movie to his satisfaction. So, really, the movie to compare it to is the earlier version, beyond that to other superhero movies. Also, I don’t expect the quality of a TV show to match a film’s quality. In other words my expectations for Justice League, particularly this version, are much higher than a Disney 6 part drama.
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Post by dazz on Mar 20, 2021 8:54:43 GMT
Both shows have roughly the same amount of runtime. I understand that, but episodic TV uses show runners, rather than a single director to maintain continuity and quality between the episodes. So they are filmed in a way differently from a feature length movie. Justice League is a special re-cut where Snyder has had privilege to reassemble his movie to his satisfaction. So, really, the movie to compare it to is the earlier version, beyond that to other superhero movies. Also, I don’t expect the quality of a TV show to match a film’s quality. In other words my expectations for Justice League, particularly this version, are much higher than a Disney 6 part drama. Except the MCU series for Disney Plus are being filmed to be basically one long movie, TF&TWS also has one director who filmed all 6 parts, same for Wandavision, difference is the shows are not being written by just one writer or a established team, but a group of writers, though they could be writing the whole thing as a group and just sharing credits by episode. JL was cut and broke up to be aired as 6 parts, as is TF&TWS, except they then went nah fuck it do it all at once, but it's still clearly broken up to be seen in episodes, TF&TWS is also budgeted for $150m for 6 episodes, so not as much as JL but still it's got a blockbuster budget for 4 hours of content. But yeah I don't see the point of comparing the two really, ones a Snyder vision the other is an MCU vision, thats like comparing Buffy to True Blood, sure they both have vampires but they aren't aiming for the same audience, best to compare them to other properties closer in nature, which I think is more appropriate to compare this JL to the extended BVS, both are Snyder products, with R ratings which are above the normal length of runtime for a blockbuster, and in that JL is a way better movie than BVS, imo.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 20, 2021 15:01:37 GMT
WB has been reactionary since after MoS. I don't think they are going to stop catering to fans now. Especially after this. They tried not to go down this road with saying there is no Snyder Cut, but caved so hard that there is no going back. This would be on the same level as Disney remaking the entire sequel Star Wars trilogy because fans are demanding it. Apologizing with Luke was bad, but if they go down the ST road... Oh my. Then, like you said, they have HBO Max to think about. They'd have to do something to keep people around longer than just for this. I dunno fans were mixed on MOS yet they stuck with Snyder for BVS, people were very sour on BVS and the Ultimate Edition on barely makes the movie tolerable, it's still a blegh movie though, and yet they stuck with Snyder for Justice League until he stepped away, WB have been reactionary to a point, they have also been stubborn pricks as well, so who knows, I honestly doubt they are going to fork over another half a billion to Snyder for a movie that will likely bomb at the box office though, which is why I think they may give in and give him a show/movie series for HBO Max where that way good or bad they can BS and say it did great numbers for them and ride out the Snyder issue. For MoS, fans had a problem with Jonathan Kent, the destruction pr0n, and the number of deaths. You can tell he was made to address it in BvS. Then they went nuts on Suicide Squad because of the reaction to BvS. Then JL, SHAZAM!, WW84, and Aquaman is an obvious reaction to the dark color pallet. Every movie is a reaction to the MCU.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 20, 2021 15:04:36 GMT
Wouldn't they have shown more than just storyboards for that scene? The storyboards showed Martian Manhunter turning into Calvin Swanwick, which would’ve required Harry Lennix. But you said they filmed everything in that scene besides him. All they've shown of that scene were the storyboards.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 20, 2021 20:50:34 GMT
The storyboards showed Martian Manhunter turning into Calvin Swanwick, which would’ve required Harry Lennix. But you said they filmed everything in that scene besides him. All they've shown of that scene were the storyboards. The purpose of showing the storyboards was to reveal to the fans that Martian Manhunter is General Swanwick, which was an Internet fan theory that had been around since 2013.
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 20, 2021 23:21:05 GMT
But you said they filmed everything in that scene besides him. All they've shown of that scene were the storyboards. The purpose of showing the storyboards was to reveal to the fans that Martian Manhunter is General Swanwick, which was an Internet fan theory that had been around since 2013. But you'd think if they already filmed the parts of that scene without him then they would have shown that along with the the storyboards instead of just the storyboards. Hmm.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 20, 2021 23:27:45 GMT
The purpose of showing the storyboards was to reveal to the fans that Martian Manhunter is General Swanwick, which was an Internet fan theory that had been around since 2013. But you'd think if they already filmed the parts of that scene without him then they would have shown that along with the the storyboards instead of just the storyboards. Hmm. He showed screenshots of Martha talking to Lois, and that scene ends with Martha turning into Martian Manhunter, so that obviously wasn’t a reshoot. Furthermore, what reason would he have for lying about something like that, especially when the Snyder Cut wasn’t even a thing at that point? In terms of why he didn’t show a screenshot of Martian Manhunter specifically, the obvious answer would be that the CGI was probably at an extremely rough stage at that point.
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Post by dazz on Mar 21, 2021 6:41:50 GMT
But you'd think if they already filmed the parts of that scene without him then they would have shown that along with the the storyboards instead of just the storyboards. Hmm. He showed screenshots of Martha talking to Lois, and that scene ends with Martha turning into Martian Manhunter, so that obviously wasn’t a reshoot. Furthermore, what reason would he have for lying about something like that, especially when the Snyder Cut wasn’t even a thing at that point? In terms of why he didn’t show a screenshot of Martian Manhunter specifically, the obvious answer would be that the CGI was probably at an extremely rough stage at that point. The CGI back then was said to be 90% complete, and they showed his cut of the original film to people, and I don't remember Martian Manhunter being included in that, and Snyder initially said to someone who asked him about Manhunter like 6 months after JL came out that he loved the idea they said of Lennix playing Manhunter, not yeah that was my idea all along, but that he loved the idea, why would he not say that was the plan when in like may or june of 2018 there were no plans for the Snyder cut whatsoever to be a reality? It's just one of thos things, a lie, in which Snyder wants to stoke the flames of restore the Snyderverse by saying how all these things is what he was originally going to do, but after the fact when he can see all the negatives of the Whedon cut, and the want of the fans, so they think oh god yes Snyder was going to do this, thats so cool, where as in reality no it's ideas he's had years after the fact with the benefit of hindsight. Keep in mind back then Snyder left they were planning to do reshoots within like a month or 2, so the actor should have been signed up to do the reshoots by then even if it was a late in the game choice, these things take a long time to iron out, but he wasn't so it suggests this is another fib. And again you say why the fibs? because it's PR spin, like I said Snyder want's people to believe the Snyder cut is his original vision, which is why he said he only filmed that one scene, but then that makes no sense again because they were filming for several weeks with Affleck, Fisher and Miller before the other 3 joined, and with the Whedon version he supposedly shot an entire new movie, or so they claim within 2 months, if Whedon can film an hour to an hour and a half of a movie in 2 months how does Snyder only film 1 scene in 1 month? and for more money than it cost for Whedon to shoot the entire movie? See these are the details that make the story Snyder and even you are trying to feed us fell like bs, it does not add up or feel true at all.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Mar 21, 2021 6:49:51 GMT
He showed screenshots of Martha talking to Lois, and that scene ends with Martha turning into Martian Manhunter, so that obviously wasn’t a reshoot. Furthermore, what reason would he have for lying about something like that, especially when the Snyder Cut wasn’t even a thing at that point? In terms of why he didn’t show a screenshot of Martian Manhunter specifically, the obvious answer would be that the CGI was probably at an extremely rough stage at that point. The CGI back then was said to be 90% complete, and they showed his cut of the original film to people, and I don't remember Martian Manhunter being included in that, and Snyder initially said to someone who asked him about Manhunter like 6 months after JL came out that he loved the idea they said of Lennix playing Manhunter, not yeah that was my idea all along, but that he loved the idea, why would he not say that was the plan when in like may or june of 2018 there were no plans for the Snyder cut whatsoever to be a reality? It's just one of thos things, a lie, in which Snyder wants to stoke the flames of restore the Snyderverse by saying how all these things is what he was originally going to do, but after the fact when he can see all the negatives of the Whedon cut, and the want of the fans, so they think oh god yes Snyder was going to do this, thats so cool, where as in reality no it's ideas he's had years after the fact with the benefit of hindsight. Keep in mind back then Snyder left they were planning to do reshoots within like a month or 2, so the actor should have been signed up to do the reshoots by then even if it was a late in the game choice, these things take a long time to iron out, but he wasn't so it suggests this is another fib. And again you say why the fibs? because it's PR spin, like I said Snyder want's people to believe the Snyder cut is his original vision, which is why he said he only filmed that one scene, but then that makes no sense again because they were filming for several weeks with Affleck, Fisher and Miller before the other 3 joined, and with the Whedon version he supposedly shot an entire new movie, or so they claim within 2 months, if Whedon can film an hour to an hour and a half of a movie in 2 months how does Snyder only film 1 scene in 1 month? and for more money than it cost for Whedon to shoot the entire movie? See these are the details that make the story Snyder and even you are trying to feed us fell like bs, it does not add up or feel true at all. Additional photography only lasted about a week or two, not one month, and they had to work around COVID. And again, what other scenes do you think were reshoots? They shouldn’t be difficult to spot. For the record, I don’t think Snyder planned for Swanwick to be Martian Manhunter from the beginning. I think he probably decided on that sometime after MoS was released.
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Post by dazz on Mar 21, 2021 7:17:11 GMT
The CGI back then was said to be 90% complete, and they showed his cut of the original film to people, and I don't remember Martian Manhunter being included in that, and Snyder initially said to someone who asked him about Manhunter like 6 months after JL came out that he loved the idea they said of Lennix playing Manhunter, not yeah that was my idea all along, but that he loved the idea, why would he not say that was the plan when in like may or june of 2018 there were no plans for the Snyder cut whatsoever to be a reality? It's just one of thos things, a lie, in which Snyder wants to stoke the flames of restore the Snyderverse by saying how all these things is what he was originally going to do, but after the fact when he can see all the negatives of the Whedon cut, and the want of the fans, so they think oh god yes Snyder was going to do this, thats so cool, where as in reality no it's ideas he's had years after the fact with the benefit of hindsight. Keep in mind back then Snyder left they were planning to do reshoots within like a month or 2, so the actor should have been signed up to do the reshoots by then even if it was a late in the game choice, these things take a long time to iron out, but he wasn't so it suggests this is another fib. And again you say why the fibs? because it's PR spin, like I said Snyder want's people to believe the Snyder cut is his original vision, which is why he said he only filmed that one scene, but then that makes no sense again because they were filming for several weeks with Affleck, Fisher and Miller before the other 3 joined, and with the Whedon version he supposedly shot an entire new movie, or so they claim within 2 months, if Whedon can film an hour to an hour and a half of a movie in 2 months how does Snyder only film 1 scene in 1 month? and for more money than it cost for Whedon to shoot the entire movie? See these are the details that make the story Snyder and even you are trying to feed us fell like bs, it does not add up or feel true at all. Additional photography only lasted about a week or two, not one month, and they had to work around COVID. And again, what other scenes do you think were reshoots? They shouldn’t be difficult to spot. And again I have fucking said, not outright reshoots but repurposing the heavy CGI shots, anything with Cybrog can easily be a reshoot given all we see of him is about 50% of his actual face for most of his screen time, and given how much the background on a lot of the movie looks cgi'ed unless on a set so who knows which ones of them are re done, this can be as simply as. There is a lot you can do by recutting a movie, voice overs and a bunch of other shit, which again seeing as how the movie was 90% complete seems like a lot of shit that finishing that 10% and shooting one scene cost $70m, when the initial movie, extensive reshoots, 90% complete CGI and then an entire CGI redo over atleast 75% of the movie only bumped the initial $275m budget up to $300m, Heard, Leto, Affleck, Miller, Fisher, Manganiello are not going to be getting like $40m between the 6 of them for 2 weeks of shooting, which is also a BS number, Miller, Fisher and Affleck were filming for 2 weeks then Heard and them joined up after that, so if it took them 2 weeks to film the stuff without the others it would have taken just as long to film the other stuff with them. And I like how you cannot argue any point so you keep just going "eh what was a reshoot then" despite me repeatedly telling you what I think, did they reshoot huge sets pieces with all the main actors? no, do they need to in order to alter and add little things? no they don't, but how many scenes are so CGI heavy they could easily change that shit without it being obvious? quite a fucking bit, which is not to even take into account all the alternative takes on scenes that could/would have been filmed given the initial films extensive rewrites, Zack could have spent a week shooting one scene and had 5 entire different takes on it based on them rewriting the scene day by day. What makes sense to me is Zack shot and cut his original Snyder cut, showed it to people and they shit on it, then Whedon did his and people shit on that too, so Snyder has had the last 3 years to think about what he fucked up, what Whedon fucked up, what the fans said they wanted, and figured out how to come up with the best version he can, which explains why it took atleast 8 months to finish work on a film 90% completed and was initially only 6 months away from release, so needed to be done in less time than that, scenes he initially left on the editing room floor now needed to get the full post production treatment. Which btw is all fine, who cares if he rethought things in order to make a better movie people would like compared to the one that didn't test well? I don't, I just dislike the intentional misleading of people, which he has done and lots of people are buying into, which just so happens be self serving as was the new scene he added as it's all to trigger fans into getting up in arms for a future movie he knew he had not shot of originally, and I dislike the deception, I mean Hollywood lies all the time, but you know they normally aren't so blatant or bad at it, if you are going to lie to me do so in a way that's remotely plausible is all I ask.
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Post by ReyKahuka on Mar 21, 2021 23:48:22 GMT
Who else appreciates this thread for containing a debate between thisguy and ThatGuy?
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Post by ThatGuy on Mar 23, 2021 23:31:19 GMT
Who else appreciates this thread for containing a debate between thisguy and ThatGuy? 
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Post by Winter_King on Apr 6, 2021 11:20:50 GMT
For the record, I don’t think Snyder planned for Swanwick to be Martian Manhunter from the beginning. I think he probably decided on that sometime after MoS was released. It wasn't planned. I think some fans started speculating about Swanwick being Martian Manhunter and Snyder liked the idea that he decided to make it true. It doesn't really make much sense when you think about it. I mean Earth was pretty much being overwhelmed with Zod and the others and Swanwick was pretty much hinging his hopes that this other Kryptonian did the right thing instead of actually teaming up with him to defeat them.
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