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Post by timshelboy on Mar 18, 2021 16:29:03 GMT
... in 1958. At a party at Tony's house where Kim's Squeeze Sammy Davis Jr was also a guest. Other participants (if any) remain unidentified. She woke up later "naked and confused" ... but lucid enough to not suspect Davis. The word "violated" did not appear in the feature in the Telegraph today... recall Kim feeling "violated" by THE ARTIST allegedly ripping off VERTIGO's score about a decade ago NAKED AND CONFUSED!!!!!No guidance on what we humble buffs are supposed to do with this info. She worked with him twice afterwards after all..... Burn our special edition SPARTACUS dvds and use the SOME LIKE IT HOT one for an ashtray I imagine? Lobby imdb1 to remove his presence from all relevant cast lists, perhaps? Guilt trip Jamie Lee?  Ideas welcome. To introduce a sense of balance I want to state that feel "violated" every time I think about Kim in JEANNE EAGELS... although the image the film affords of Jeff Chandler in harem pants haunts my every dream....Kim was once (unfairly) described as "the worst actress ever to become a household name" (circa 1975 SUNDAY TIMES). I'm not a household name - nor a leading actress - for all I know Judi Dench may wake up "naked and confused" as often as three times a week - I often wake up naked and confused myself without chemical inducement......they do say fame has a price. No shame in lowering tone of board discussion - if Woody Vs Mia and Orson baiting hacks and racy Teresa Wright upskirt shots can still merit cyberspace then Kim's - and our - dilemma is within scope.   Before that loaded daicquiri did the rounds Kim & Tony entertained the assembled on karaoke - a medley from SOUTH PACIFIC I gather |
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Post by politicidal on Mar 18, 2021 16:50:29 GMT
She just remembered this after 63 years?
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Post by timshelboy on Mar 18, 2021 16:58:27 GMT
She just remembered this after 63 years? I hear Curtis mixed a mean cocktail....  maybe she has forgotten those intervening 63 years and thinks she's just in her late 20s about to step into Madeleine/Judy's shoes... a simple country wench morphed into a Cohn sized somnambulist fantasy figure.
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Post by marianne48 on Mar 18, 2021 18:48:47 GMT
Kind of like when Curtis famously said that kissing Marilyn Monroe was
"like kissing Hitler"...but then many years later, when no one else around at the time was still living, claimed that he and Monroe were actually having a torrid love affair and she was pregnant with his baby.
Novak lost most of her credibility after that statement about the music from The Artist (which Herrmann had "ripped off" from Wagner to begin with).
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Post by Prime etc. on Mar 18, 2021 19:22:28 GMT
I haven't seen the Artist but I think if you use music from one movie for another movie, especially the big three (Barry, Herrmann, and Morricone) you are wading into troubled waters because they carry such cultural weight--that your use of their famous music would draw so much attention to its use, especially if it is for more than a few seconds--riding their coattails.
I feel it's sort of like re-branding.
I can understand her attitude because in a sense that music was composed for her--Herrmann's composition was inspired by her so I can at least understand why she would take offense. She feels it's partly her property because she was the muse for it.
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Post by timshelboy on Mar 18, 2021 20:11:32 GMT
Kind of like when Curtis famously said that kissing Marilyn Monroe was "like kissing Hitler"...but then many years later, when no one else around at the time was still living, claimed that he and Monroe were actually having a torrid love affair and she was pregnant with his baby. Novak lost most of her credibility after that statement about the music from The Artist (which Herrmann had "ripped off" from Wagner to begin with). Yes I thought Curtis' "wadda I have to do to win an oscar" dotage rants were sad. Never thought Novak had much cred to lose - contemporary critics were not kind and its not like she had a second career as a UNESCO ambassador or Labour MP or adopted orphans by the bale... she retired to Malibu and painted a bit ...... but you can't deny her VERTIGO - I used to think it did more for her than she it but a recent revisit left me wondering who else could pull that dual role off so well. There are moments in PICNIC where she becomes a (small town) goddess. She was very effective in THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM and gallantly almost held her own opposite Fredric March in the neglected MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT... and THE LEGEND OF LYLAH CLARE always makes me smile
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Post by OldAussie on Mar 18, 2021 20:38:52 GMT
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Post by marianne48 on Mar 18, 2021 20:43:28 GMT
I haven't seen the Artist but I think if you use music from one movie for another movie, especially the big three (Barry, Herrmann, and Morricone) you are wading into troubled waters because they carry such cultural weight--that your use of their famous music would draw so much attention to its use, especially if it is for more than a few seconds--riding their coattails. I feel it's sort of like re-branding. I can understand her attitude because in a sense that music was composed for her--Herrmann's composition was inspired by her so I can at least understand why she would take offense. She feels it's partly her property because she was the muse for it. True, but in the case of The Artist, the use of the music from another film was intentional; scenes from classics such as Citizen Kane, The Big Broadcast of 1940, etc. were imitated as homages, which was part of the fun of the film. I could see why Novak might have been miffed, although she might have been flattered if she'd looked at it differently. |
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Post by marshamae on Mar 18, 2021 20:51:31 GMT
Hmmm
After two years of MeToo I would have thought most people were familiar with the complications of speaking up.
A- victims often do not remember, are often forced into situations where they are working with abusers.
B- speaking up late May make it difficult to bring the perpetrator to justice but it does not mean the victim should be disbelieved.
C- The things that seem to limit Novak’s credibility are part of the abuse. She was under contract to Harry Cohn, abuse by definition. Frank Sinatra passed her to Sammy Davis.
This is one of the less known facets of Rat Pack life. Frank always had first pick. I believe Kim was genuinely in love with Sammy Davis and he loved her, but someone
threatened to break Sammy’s legs and it scared him so badly he entered a fake marriage with a Black model. My point , Kim Novak’s love life was like bump’em cars,
Alpha males banging into each other and she had very little agency.
D- Tony Curtis was on the outskirts of the rat pack, a powerful star and , with wife Janet Leigh, part of one of the most popular couples in Hollywood. Who was Novak
supposed to tell?
E- I mind the idea that because she did not become mother Teresa she is not credible. She took herself to Malibu, painting and solitude. It is a lot like what Bardot, Doris
Day and other abused blondes did. Being alone means you can control the boundaries, something Kim could not do in Hollywood.
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Post by timshelboy on Mar 18, 2021 21:16:12 GMT
I haven't seen the Artist but I think if you use music from one movie for another movie, especially the big three (Barry, Herrmann, and Morricone) you are wading into troubled waters because they carry such cultural weight--that your use of their famous music would draw so much attention to its use, especially if it is for more than a few seconds--riding their coattails. I feel it's sort of like re-branding. I can understand her attitude because in a sense that music was composed for her--Herrmann's composition was inspired by her so I can at least understand why she would take offense. She feels it's partly her property because she was the muse for it. True, but in the case of The Artist, the use of the music from another film was intentional; scenes from classics such as Citizen Kane, The Big Broadcast of 1940, etc. were imitated as homages, which was part of the fun of the film. I could see why Novak might have been miffed, although she might have been flattered if she'd looked at it differently.  Good point - guess Ms Novak's a glass half empty kinda gal... a gracious thank you would have played better than the pearl clutching (not sure that argument works re the dodgy daicquiri though)
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Post by timshelboy on Mar 18, 2021 21:26:26 GMT
Hmmm After two years of MeToo I would have thought most people were familiar with the complications of speaking up. A- victims often do not remember, are often forced into situations where they are working with abusers. B- speaking up late May make it difficult to bring the perpetrator to justice but it does not mean the victim should be disbelieved. C- The things that seem to limit Novak’s credibility are part of the abuse. She was under to HArry Cohn, abuse by definition. Frank Sinatra passed her to Sammy Davis. This is one of the less known facets of Rat Pack life. Frank always had first pick. I believe Kim was genuinely in love with Sammy Davis and he loved her, but someone threatened to break Sammy’s legs and it scared him so badly he entered a fake marriage with a Black model. My point , Kim Novak’s love life was like bump’em cars, Alpha males banging into each other and she had very little agency. D- Tony Curtis was on the outskirts of the rat pack, a powerful star and , with wife Janet Leigh, part of one of the most popular couples in Hollywood. Who was Novak supposed to tell? E- I mind the idea that because she did not become mother Teresa she is not credible. She took herself to Malibu, painting and solitude. It is a lot like what Bardot, Doris Day and other abused blondes did. Being alone means you can control the boundaries, something Kim could not do in Hollywood. E fair comment on that one - I'd have chosen Malibu and a smock over the other options - It wasn't just she didn't do "good works", but that there was nothing public/visible at all .....her dreamy almost there image/quality maybe a factor... if it were Ann-Margret or Eva Marie Saint - more grounded or tangible presences - I'd have been more gallant.
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Post by hi224 on Mar 18, 2021 21:39:29 GMT
Hmmm After two years of MeToo I would have thought most people were familiar with the complications of speaking up. A- victims often do not remember, are often forced into situations where they are working with abusers. B- speaking up late May make it difficult to bring the perpetrator to justice but it does not mean the victim should be disbelieved. C- The things that seem to limit Novak’s credibility are part of the abuse. She was under to HArry Cohn, abuse by definition. Frank Sinatra passed her to Sammy Davis. This is one of the less known facets of Rat Pack life. Frank always had first pick. I believe Kim was genuinely in love with Sammy Davis and he loved her, but someone threatened to break Sammy’s legs and it scared him so badly he entered a fake marriage with a Black model. My point , Kim Novak’s love life was like bump’em cars, Alpha males banging into each other and she had very little agency. D- Tony Curtis was on the outskirts of the rat pack, a powerful star and , with wife Janet Leigh, part of one of the most popular couples in Hollywood. Who was Novak supposed to tell? E- I mind the idea that because she did not become mother Teresa she is not credible. She took herself to Malibu, painting and solitude. It is a lot like what Bardot, Doris Day and other abused blondes did. Being alone means you can control the boundaries, something Kim could not do in Hollywood. your dealing with a board where people automatically jump to the defense of the accused...
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Post by marshamae on Mar 18, 2021 22:52:17 GMT
your dealing with a board where people automatically jump to the defense of the accused...
Not sure about that . I certainly would not say that of Timshelboy. We have been film chatting for at least ten years. Tim she’ll is generally well informed ,balanced and kind, also very smart.
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Post by timshelboy on Mar 19, 2021 8:00:40 GMT
your dealing with a board where people automatically jump to the defense of the accused... Can't speak for whole board but not sure I was jumping to Tony's defense .... but reading it back I certainly wasn't treating Kim as a credible witness (maybe deep down I just know she's guilty Judy and not to be trusted!) , and hadn't thought through that my gut reaction "he's dead and if it true he can't be punished" is irrelevant to victim's need to speak. So for that I'll apologise to Kim She got my flowers.   I guess a few other thoughts were in my head In the news yesterday I learned that a student in an online debate had been suspended for using the phrase "Rule Britannia" which another student had argued was "discriminatory". It's the national anthem and quoting it now an offensive act? This distressed me enormously. As did the news that Thatcher and Coco Chanel were dropped from some official list of inspirational women. Mags for her homophobia and Coco for "having links" with Nazis. Now I'm no Thatcher fan but to deny she was an inspirational leader is poppycock - The nation was inspired to vote her to lead them 3 times in a row from memory. It's not a matter for debate or conjecture. As to the homophobia well sure but there was a lot of it about and it wasn't her worst feature (the devil take the hindmost approach to things generally and the Disney fantasy she had about "Family" were my big bug bugbears. On the bright side she knew her handbags and gave those Argies what for. Coco's crime of "having links" with Nazis I feel is mitigated by the fact they were occupying France at the time and anyone north of Vichy would have similar links. Was she not supposed to serve the Teutonic big brass queuing up ouside her boutiques for those lovely scarves and shoes for Brunhilde back on the Rhine valley farm? What kind of mad, overwoked world have we become? I have had a recent experienced myself of being "cancelled"/discredited/bullied for speaking out/taking the unpopular view. Women were in 1958 and remain subject to abusive and exploitative men... but can and do deal with sexism on daily basis and cope and survive. I guess it's the victim "mentality" that can accompany #MeToo. I read the Bananarama joint memoir recently and they had plenty to say about the rampant misogyny in the 80s/90s pop world they lived, but took the line it was par for the course and it ultimately made them more resilient and tenacious individuals and the shared experiences of that was a major factor in their durability and friendship together . And they woke up "naked and confused" quite a bit when they were just 3 pop fringe hangers on who got lucky and got into clubs free and took it as a sign they'd had a good night out. Sydney Guilaroff must be spinning in his grave. ......Not victims....Bananarama in their prime - Siobhan(right) was my favourite  I have the 2 volume 1600 page Sinatra biog looming so will be better informed on how representative Tony's behaviour might have been... but I'm guessing the queue of candidates for #MeToo's hitlist will be a lot longer and wider than just him. Some of #MeToo's noisiest poster girls also to my mind can present as a little deluded about the deleterious effect sexism has had on their careers. I'd say I'm generally a Rosanna Arquette fan, but I don't quite buy the line she was thwarted from having a major A list career by refusing to play hide the salami with Harvey. She scored big with DESPERATELY SEEKING SUSAN in 1985 and had a few years of being offered high profile opportunities, but the public never responded in enough numbers and in truth the ditsiness/flakiness could grate. BLACK RAINBOW tanked at the end of the decade and after that the roles and film quality declined quite sharply. She's still working and has done some good work and I'd happily watch her in anything, but it was never in the cards she was going to be a Julia or Pfeiffer or Basinger level star. Harvey didn't stymie that fantasy.. Joe Public did. For what its worth I resisted participating in the Woody vs Mia thread precisely because I'm partisan on that one... I accept other people may get queasy watching and Mariel can share whatever she wants to share with us... but for me personally in MANHATTAN there is no doubt that Woody/Isaac finds his cinematic soul mate in Hemingway/Tracy, and that break up scene hits me like a punch in the stomach every time, and that ending among the most uplifting on film.... and that will never change. WARNING - Some posters may find the following image challenging. Please view at your own risk: .jpg)
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Post by poelzig on Mar 19, 2021 9:14:45 GMT
Hmmm After two years of MeToo I would have thought most people were familiar with the complications of speaking up. A- victims often do not remember, are often forced into situations where they are working with abusers. B- speaking up late May make it difficult to bring the perpetrator to justice but it does not mean the victim should be disbelieved. C- The things that seem to limit Novak’s credibility are part of the abuse. She was under to HArry Cohn, abuse by definition. Frank Sinatra passed her to Sammy Davis. This is one of the less known facets of Rat Pack life. Frank always had first pick. I believe Kim was genuinely in love with Sammy Davis and he loved her, but someone threatened to break Sammy’s legs and it scared him so badly he entered a fake marriage with a Black model. My point , Kim Novak’s love life was like bump’em cars, Alpha males banging into each other and she had very little agency. D- Tony Curtis was on the outskirts of the rat pack, a powerful star and , with wife Janet Leigh, part of one of the most popular couples in Hollywood. Who was Novak supposed to tell? E- I mind the idea that because she did not become mother Teresa she is not credible. She took herself to Malibu, painting and solitude. It is a lot like what Bardot, Doris Day and other abused blondes did. Being alone means you can control the boundaries, something Kim could not do in Hollywood. your dealing with a board where people automatically jump to the defense of the accused... You are always eager to play at being the white knight,huh? Your comment is hyperbolic and wrong as usual. If i cared more I would search for one of your disgusting posts about how much you want to molest Zendaya. If I recall correctly you told me it was a compliment that an old white pervert like you was interested in a young black girl. Personally I always give metoo folks the benefit of the doubt but do realize some are less than truthful. I will never understand why male metoo folks receive little to no sympathy like the 12 year old kid that Kevin Spacey tried to rape for example. Wanna be actress in her 20s meets Weinstein or whoever in a hotel room at 2 am for an "audition" blows him and decades later she's not a star and complains is a victim. Pre teen boy goes to a party is fed booze and drugs by adults and wakes up to Spacey trying to bang his booty knew what he was getting into and shouldn't be complaining. I've seen that opinion on here often. Makes no sense. I do agree that a disturbing number of people on this site think Polanski should have all charges dropped for raping a girl barely in her teens. WTF?!!!! I still say your comment is far too generalized and your drooling comments about Zendaya are very creepy at best
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Post by hi224 on Mar 19, 2021 9:49:06 GMT
your dealing with a board where people automatically jump to the defense of the accused... You are always eager to play at being the white knight,huh? Your comment is hyperbolic and wrong as usual. If i cared more I would search for one of your disgusting posts about how much you want to molest Zendaya. If I recall correctly you told me it was a compliment that an old white pervert like you was interested in a young black girl. Personally I always give metoo folks the benefit of the doubt but do realize some are less than truthful. I will never understand why male metoo folks receive little to no sympathy like the 12 year old kid that Kevin Spacey tried to rape for example. Wanna be actress in her 20s meets Weinstein or whoever in a hotel room at 2 am for an "audition" blows him and decades later she's not a star and complains is a victim. Pre teen boy goes to a party is fed booze and drugs by adults and wakes up to Spacey trying to bang his booty knew what he was getting into and shouldn't be complaining. I've seen that opinion on here often. Makes no sense. I do agree that a disturbing number of people on this site think Polanski should have all charges dropped for raping a girl barely in her teens. WTF?!!!! I still say your comment is far too generalized and your drooling comments about Zendaya are very creepy at best Your just strange |
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Post by hi224 on Mar 19, 2021 9:51:29 GMT
your dealing with a board where people automatically jump to the defense of the accused... Can't speak for whole board but not sure I was jumping to Tony's defense .... but reading it back I certainly wasn't treating Kim as a credible witness (maybe deep down I just know she's guilty Judy and not to be trusted!) , and hadn't thought through that my gut reaction "he's dead and if it true he can't be punished" is irrelevant to victim's need to speak. So for that I'll apologise to Kim She got my flowers. I guess a few other thoughts were in my head In the news yesterday I learned that a student in an online debate had been suspended for using the phrase "Rule Britannia" which another student had argued was "discriminatory". It's the national anthem and quoting it now an offensive act? This distressed me enormously. As did the news that Thatcher and Coco Chanel were dropped from some official list of inspirational women. Mags for her homophobia and Coco for "having links" with Nazis. Now I'm no Thatcher fan but to deny she was an inspirational leader is poppycock - The nation was inspired to vote her to lead them 3 times in a row from memory. It's not a matter for debate or conjecture. As to the homophobia well sure but there was a lot of it about and it wasn't her worst feature (the devil take the hindmost approach to things generally and the Disney fantasy she had about "Family" were my big bug bugbears. On the bright side she knew her handbags and gave those Argies what for. Coco's crime of "having links" with Nazis I feel is mitigated by the fact they were occupying France at the time and anyone north of Vichy would have similar links. Was she not supposed to serve the Teutonic big brass queuing up ouside her boutiques for those lovely scarves and shoes for Brunhilde back on the Rhine valley farm? What kind of mad, overwoked world have we become? I have had a recent experienced myself of being "cancelled"/discredited/bullied for speaking out/taking the unpopular view. Women were in 1958 and remain subject to abusive and exploitative men... but can and do deal with sexism on daily basis and cope and survive. I guess it's the victim "mentality" that can accompany #MeToo. I read the Bananarama joint memoir recently and they had plenty to say about the rampant misogyny in the 80s/90s pop world they lived, but took the line it was par for the course and it ultimately made them more resilient and tenacious individuals and the shared experiences of that was a major factor in their durability and friendship together . And they woke up "naked and confused" quite a bit when they were just 3 pop fringe hangers on who got lucky and got into clubs free and took it as a sign they'd had a good night out. Sydney Guilaroff must be spinning in his grave. ......Not victims....Bananarama in their prime - Siobhan(right) was my favourite I have the 2 volume 1600 page Sinatra biog looming so will be better informed on how representative Tony's behaviour might have been... but I'm guessing the queue of candidates for #MeToo's hitlist will be a lot longer and wider than just him. Some of #MeToo's noisiest poster girls also to my mind can present as a little deluded about the deleterious effect sexism has had on their careers. I'd say I'm generally a Rosanna Arquette fan, but I don't quite buy the line she was thwarted from having a major A list career by refusing to play hide the salami with Harvey. She scored big with DESPERATELY SEEKING SUSAN in 1985 and had a few years of being offered high profile opportunities, but the public never responded in enough numbers and in truth the ditsiness/flakiness could grate. BLACK RAINBOW tanked at the end of the decade and after that the roles and film quality declined quite sharply. She's still working and has done some good work and I'd happily watch her in anything, but it was never in the cards she was going to be a Julia or Pfeiffer or Basinger level star. Harvey didn't stymie that fantasy.. Joe Public did. For what its worth I resisted participating in the Woody vs Mia thread precisely because I'm partisan on that one... I accept other people may get queasy watching and Mariel can share whatever she wants to share with us... but for me personally in MANHATTAN there is no doubt that Woody/Isaac finds his cinematic soul mate in Hemingway/Tracy, and that break up scene hits me like a punch in the stomach every time, and that ending among the most uplifting on film.... and that will never change. WARNING - Some posters may find the following image challenging. Please view at your own risk: Wasn't calling you out nesscarily. |
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Post by hi224 on Mar 19, 2021 9:52:12 GMT
your dealing with a board where people automatically jump to the defense of the accused...Not sure about that . I certainly would not say that of Timshelboy. We have been film chatting for at least ten years. Tim she’ll is generally well informed ,balanced and kind, also very smart. Didn't mean them or classic film board, meant other sub forums on here basically. |
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Post by timshelboy on Mar 19, 2021 11:19:06 GMT
I haven't seen the Artist but I think if you use music from one movie for another movie, especially the big three (Barry, Herrmann, and Morricone) you are wading into troubled waters because they carry such cultural weight--that your use of their famous music would draw so much attention to its use, especially if it is for more than a few seconds--riding their coattails. I feel it's sort of like re-branding. I can understand her attitude because in a sense that music was composed for her--Herrmann's composition was inspired by her so I can at least understand why she would take offense. She feels it's partly her property because she was the muse for it. I claim ignorance re movie composition techniques - I rather imagined it was a combination of the Director/producer communicating his artistic vision eg Pollack to John Barry " I want the majesty of a pride of lions" for OUT OF AFRICA for example, and getting a cut of the movie to gawp at - so in that sense she can claim a sort of (once removed) muse status... but I can't help thinking any apology should be offered to Herrmann.
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Post by timshelboy on Mar 19, 2021 12:36:41 GMT
Wasn't calling you out nesscarily. No didn't think you were - wasn't intending to take sides ...Kim is not my problem - part of a wider malaise I think
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Ideas welcome. 
