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Post by dirtypillows on Apr 3, 2021 2:46:19 GMT
I am being serious. I really don't get this. I recently told a friend that one Halloween I might want to go as Jean Hill ("Grizelda" from Desperate Living - JW 1977 ) and my friend said "You can't do that! Do you know how racist that is?!" And I guess I knew in the back of my mind some people would find this offensive. But honestly, I don't. I love Jean Hill to pieces. Just love her to bits. And it is really, to my way of seeing things, almost a coincidence that she happened to be a black woman. I mean, what if I wanted to go as Pat Ast or Sylvia Miles or Nancy Parson, or some other fabulously funny female? Edith Massey? I mean, funny is funny. And dressing up is dressing up. I could see going as the KKK being offensive (and worse) because those people are full of hate. But the four women I just cited all happen to be white and I love them. Is that the measuring stick? It's okay if I go as those women because they are the same skin color as I am, but I can't go as the hilarious and lovable Miss Jean Hill because there is this one thing that's different about us? Is there something more to 'blackface' than maybe I don't know about? Because I have an inkling that Miss Hill herself was not the easily offended type.
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Post by gw on Apr 3, 2021 4:24:34 GMT
It could be anything from historical minstrelsy to 'cultural appropriation' to a general stay in your lane mentality. I can only speak from the American perspective. Here it's taboo due to a general inequality that's perceived which is kind of ironic because this sort of thing would help to erase that inequality, people from different cultures imitating each other freely. Plus she's a comedian, not a civil rights figure. I think. it should be okay to dress like a person of another culture as long as you don't do a negative exaggeration but I think that it's ultimately up to, in this case, what black people think.
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Post by Spitfire926f on Apr 3, 2021 5:27:03 GMT
You could go as Jean Hill, just don't darken your skin.
I think context with some "blackface" incidents do get lost, like the couple that dressed as Jay Z and Beyonce and lost their jobs. Chances are they were actually huge fans. But this touches a nerve in the black community regardless of context, so that needs to be respected. It's sort of like a white person trying to use the N word in the familial way blacks do, you just don't do it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2021 8:23:04 GMT
It's all about the history. When "blackface" started there were still slaves. When they did wear the face it was done in a
demeaning way. Most of the time to get the audience to laugh and portray black people in a negative and stereotypical way.
People may have different reasons now (to pay tribute) but based on it's history it will always be something negative and demeaning.
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Post by Stammerhead on Apr 3, 2021 9:44:51 GMT
Historical connection. The Minstrel act grew out of racism based on mimicking (and often belittling) black people and even Yellow Face is connected to white actors portraying Asian characters. Of course there are many reasons for dressing up as something you are not (after all isn’t that what drag is?) and it can be done with good intentions but people still get offended, even if they are just being offended about something that doesn’t really affect them. I wonder if/when people will start being offended by Fat Face...  |
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Post by truecristian on Apr 3, 2021 15:48:11 GMT
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Post by langdona on Apr 3, 2021 16:50:50 GMT
Its bc of the history behind the practice obviously. Not that hard to understand. And nobody is saying you cant appreciate her and dress up as her.. just dont paint your fcking face black and exaggerate black features like large lips or sth. There's way to do things without being insensitive to how it rightfully could offend some groups...
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Apr 3, 2021 19:00:26 GMT
Its not just the one thing that's different about yourselves. Its about the fact that every time someone did black face it was also accompanied by a portrayal of black people as dumb people to be laughed AT, not with. It was always a demeaning portrayal. And yes, it was steeped in "lets laugh at the other" type racism. The only reason I'm even answering this is because you started with "I am being serious. I really don't get this." so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. But I have to admit that I don't understand how you don't get it. Its kinda obvious.
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Post by moviemouth on Apr 3, 2021 21:09:35 GMT
It was meant to lessen their race even further. It had the effect of making the black race look like clowns.
The Tropic Thunder joke is very clever in addressing aspects of this. In that movie it isn't that RDJ's character is mocking black people, it is that his character is taking work from black actors. The whole joke is about where do we draw the line when it comes to pretending to be someone else.
The reason I bring this up is because it is the difference between a white actor with subtle make-up on to play an Japanese character in a movie and Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's. Black face in history has always been demeaning, in a similar way as the buck tooth Japanese face or the huge nose Jewish face, the latter especially as a Nazi propaganda tactic in Germany during the 1930's.
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Post by dirtypillows on Apr 3, 2021 22:11:17 GMT
It could be anything from historical minstrelsy to 'cultural appropriation' to a general stay in your lane mentality. I can only speak from the American perspective. Here it's taboo due to a general inequality that's perceived which is kind of ironic because this sort of thing would help to erase that inequality, people from different cultures imitating each other freely. Plus she's a comedian, not a civil rights figure. I think. it should be okay to dress like a person of another culture as long as you don't do a negative exaggeration but I think that it's ultimately up to, in this case, what black people think. I always think cultural appropriation is touchy/borderline silly. No culture, imo, should be regarded as off limits. I know and understand why black people regard the word "nigger" as their own. I can respect that and appreciate that. Though I do think that this continual use of "the 'N' word" is sort of ridiculous. I think a lot of it comes down to intentions. Yes. Jean Hill had such a great sense of humor about herself that it would be wholly unnecessary to exaggerate anything.
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Post by dirtypillows on Apr 3, 2021 22:18:22 GMT
It was meant to lessen their race even further. It had the effect of making the black race look like clowns. The Tropic Thunder joke is very clever in addressing aspects of this. In that movie it isn't that RDJ's character is mocking black people, it is that his character is taking work from black actors. The whole joke is about where do we draw the line when it comes to pretending to be someone else. The reason I bring this up is because it is the difference between a white actor with subtle make-up on to play an Japanese character in a movie and Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's. Black face in history has always been demeaning, in a similar way as the buck tooth Japanese face or the huge nose Jewish face, the latter especially as a Nazi propaganda tactic in Germany during the 1930's. Yeah, historical context needs to be taken into consideration. Thank you for the Mickey Rooney example. I did see that movie and his characterization does seem extreme. Though now I wonder about Peter Sellers' hilarious imitation of Charlie Chan in the 1976 "Murder by Death". I never would have thought that Neil Simon could have been classified as racist. Did you see that movie? I guess the black face that I have seen is sort of buffoonery. But if I went as Jean Hill, it would be inspired by pure affection. Does this make the difference?
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Post by dirtypillows on Apr 3, 2021 22:22:00 GMT
Its not just the one thing that's different about yourselves. Its about the fact that every time someone did black face it was also accompanied by a portrayal of black people as dumb people to be laughed AT, not with. It was always a demeaning portrayal. And yes, it was steeped in "lets laugh at the other" type racism. The only reason I'm even answering this is because you started with "I am being serious. I really don't get this." so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. But I have to admit that I don't understand how you don't get it. Its kinda obvious. Well, I guess my curiosity about this started when my friend said I should not go as Jean Hill because to do her justice, I would think I'd need to wear some face paint and people would perceive that as insulting. Why? She's black. I would think it strange that there is anything inherently negative about being black. There seems to be hypocrisy going on here. I mean drag queens wear dresses and fake boobs and wigs and lots of makeup. Though I have also heard some people say that drag comes from misogyny. 
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Post by Admin on Apr 3, 2021 22:25:42 GMT
You could go as Jean Hill, just don't darken your skin. Yeah. He could go as a white Jean Hill and I'll go as a white MLK. I have a friend who'd like to come as a black David Duke, but they won't let him in because of blackface.
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Post by moviemouth on Apr 3, 2021 22:44:39 GMT
It was meant to lessen their race even further. It had the effect of making the black race look like clowns. The Tropic Thunder joke is very clever in addressing aspects of this. In that movie it isn't that RDJ's character is mocking black people, it is that his character is taking work from black actors. The whole joke is about where do we draw the line when it comes to pretending to be someone else. The reason I bring this up is because it is the difference between a white actor with subtle make-up on to play an Japanese character in a movie and Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's. Black face in history has always been demeaning, in a similar way as the buck tooth Japanese face or the huge nose Jewish face, the latter especially as a Nazi propaganda tactic in Germany during the 1930's. Yeah, historical context needs to be taken into consideration. Thank you for the Mickey Rooney example. I did see that movie and his characterization does seem extreme. Though now I wonder about Peter Sellers' hilarious imitation of Charlie Chan in the 1976 "Murder by Death". I never would have thought that Neil Simon could have been classified as racist. Did you see that movie? I guess the black face that I have seen is sort of buffoonery. But if I went as Jean Hill, it would be inspired by pure affection. Does this make the difference? I'm sure there are exceptions, but I am talking broadly. Comedy is more subjective in it's intent and whether it offends a certain group, and it also depends on how close you are to the offense. The Peter Sellers' character is a touchy area and even if Neil Simon wasn't a flat out racist, doesn't mean that the characterization isn't meant to be offensive. The Mickey Rooney Breakfast at Tiffany's character reeks of pointless and mean-spirited mocking of East Asians. "Black face" is obviously more touchy in the U.S. than offensive interpretations of East Asians, because black people have a much deeper rooted history of hatred in the U.S. It is in part because we as a society have deemed "black face" off-limits" and it is perfectly understandable why. We have also deemed stuff like the Peter Sellers' character in Murder By death off-limits too, that just took us longer. It also depends on how you go about it. There is a joke on Family Guy where the family all put on black face because the dad misunderstands the invitation that he gets to an African American led conference and when they get there all wearing blackface they are attacked. Family Guy makes light of everything and draws attention to the absurdity of the human race and that is why these satirical cartoons are able to get away with it.
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Post by dirtypillows on Apr 3, 2021 22:48:47 GMT
You could go as Jean Hill, just don't darken your skin. I think context with some "blackface" incidents do get lost, like the couple that dressed as Jay Z and Beyonce and lost their jobs. Chances are they were actually huge fans. But this touches a nerve in the black community regardless of context, so that needs to be respected. It's sort of like a white person trying to use the N word in the familial way blacks do, you just don't do it. I can appreciate everything you've said. I never heard about the couple that dressed up as black people and got fired. Everything is so political, it gets tiresome. And I do think there is a difference between being politically correct and being sensitive and respectful. And I just say black. I get what you are saying in your last sentence. I try not to go there. But... it does kind of prove the point that there will always be some unspoken distance between cultures, and that because of this there will ALWAYS be tension. I remember this movie "Katharine" (1975, Sissy Spacek) where the main character is a politically liberal young woman who comes from privilege. She wants to do the right thing and her heart is in the right place when she volunteers at the downtown community center. But there is a scene where a black male peer says "Your white skin makes you the enemy. You were born the enemy." That movie was made 46 years ago and that sentiment is just as present today. Just like there will always be a certain kind of tension between the sexes. This is human nature. I am gay and I never use the words "faggot" or "queer" or "dyke" or "fairy" or whatever. I never use the word "sister" (lordy!) and I only rarely use the term "family". I understand the whole notion behind taking back a word and claiming possession. But that's not in my nature. I would be horrified to find myself using the word "faggot" or "queer" to refer to a gay person.
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Post by dirtypillows on Apr 3, 2021 22:53:29 GMT
Yeah, historical context needs to be taken into consideration. Thank you for the Mickey Rooney example. I did see that movie and his characterization does seem extreme. Though now I wonder about Peter Sellers' hilarious imitation of Charlie Chan in the 1976 "Murder by Death". I never would have thought that Neil Simon could have been classified as racist. Did you see that movie? I guess the black face that I have seen is sort of buffoonery. But if I went as Jean Hill, it would be inspired by pure affection. Does this make the difference? I'm sure there are exceptions, but I am talking broadly. Comedy is more subjective in it's intent and whether it offends a certain group, and it also depends on how close you are to the offense. The Peter Sellers' character is a touchy area and even if Neil Simon wasn't a flat out racist, doesn't mean that the characterization isn't meant to be offensive. The Mickey Rooney Breakfast at Tiffany's character reeks of pointless and mean-spirited mocking of East Asians. "Black face" is obviously more touchy in the U.S. than offensive interpretations of East Asians, because black people have a much deeper rooted history of hatred in the U.S. It is in part because we as a society have deemed "black face" off-limits" and it is perfectly understandable why. We have also deemed stuff like the Peter Sellers' character in Murder By death off-limits too, that just took us longer. It also depends on how you go about it. There is a joke in Family Guy where the family all put on black face because the dad misunderstands the invitation that he gets to an African American led conference and when they get there all wearing blackface they are attacked. Family Guy makes light of everything and draws attention to the absurdity of the human race and that is why these satirical cartoons are able to get away with it. I've never seen "Family Guy". The episode you described sounds very interesting. I remember reading somewhere that the dad's chin was drawn to look like a set of testicles. 
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Post by Spitfire926f on Apr 3, 2021 22:55:17 GMT
You could go as Jean Hill, just don't darken your skin. I think context with some "blackface" incidents do get lost, like the couple that dressed as Jay Z and Beyonce and lost their jobs. Chances are they were actually huge fans. But this touches a nerve in the black community regardless of context, so that needs to be respected. It's sort of like a white person trying to use the N word in the familial way blacks do, you just don't do it. I can appreciate everything you've said. I never heard about the couple that dressed up as black people and got fired. Everything is so political, it gets tiresome. And I do think there is a difference between being politically correct and being sensitive and respectful. And I just say black. I get what you are saying in your last sentence. I try not to go there. But... it does kind of prove the point that there will always be some unspoken distance between cultures, and that because of this there will ALWAYS be tension. I remember this movie "Katharine" (1975, Sissy Spacek) where the main character is a politically liberal young woman who comes from privilege. She wants to do the right thing and her heart is in the right place when she volunteers at the downtown community center. But there is a scene where a black male peer says "Your white skin makes you the enemy. You were born the enemy." That movie was made 46 years ago and that sentiment is just as present today. Just like there will always be a certain kind of tension between the sexes. This is human nature. I am gay and I never use the words "faggot" or "queer" or "dyke" or "fairy" or whatever. I never use the word "sister" (lordy!) and I only rarely use the term "family". I understand the whole notion behind taking back a word and claiming possession. But that's not in my nature. I would be horrified to find myself using the word "faggot" or "queer" to refer to a gay person. And to complicate things more, a "fag" in some parts of the world is a cigarette. |
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Post by moviemouth on Apr 3, 2021 22:56:54 GMT
I'm sure there are exceptions, but I am talking broadly. Comedy is more subjective in it's intent and whether it offends a certain group, and it also depends on how close you are to the offense. The Peter Sellers' character is a touchy area and even if Neil Simon wasn't a flat out racist, doesn't mean that the characterization isn't meant to be offensive. The Mickey Rooney Breakfast at Tiffany's character reeks of pointless and mean-spirited mocking of East Asians. "Black face" is obviously more touchy in the U.S. than offensive interpretations of East Asians, because black people have a much deeper rooted history of hatred in the U.S. It is in part because we as a society have deemed "black face" off-limits" and it is perfectly understandable why. We have also deemed stuff like the Peter Sellers' character in Murder By death off-limits too, that just took us longer. It also depends on how you go about it. There is a joke in Family Guy where the family all put on black face because the dad misunderstands the invitation that he gets to an African American led conference and when they get there all wearing blackface they are attacked. Family Guy makes light of everything and draws attention to the absurdity of the human race and that is why these satirical cartoons are able to get away with it. I've never seen "Family Guy". The episode you described sounds very interesting. I remember reading somewhere that the dad's chin was drawn to look like a set of testicles. Family Guy is a divisive show for multiple reasons. I am a fan, but I understand why a lot of people dislike it.
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Post by dirtypillows on Apr 3, 2021 22:57:50 GMT
You could go as Jean Hill, just don't darken your skin. Yeah. He could go as a white Jean Hill and I'll go as a white MLK. I have a friend who'd like to come as a black David Duke, but they won't let him in because of blackface. Exactly. And the year after I will go dressed up as a fat Karen Carpenter.
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Post by moviemouth on Apr 3, 2021 23:04:08 GMT
You could go as Jean Hill, just don't darken your skin. I think context with some "blackface" incidents do get lost, like the couple that dressed as Jay Z and Beyonce and lost their jobs. Chances are they were actually huge fans. But this touches a nerve in the black community regardless of context, so that needs to be respected. It's sort of like a white person trying to use the N word in the familial way blacks do, you just don't do it. I am gay and I never use the words "faggot" or "queer" or "dyke" or "fairy" or whatever. I never use the word "sister" (lordy!) and I only rarely use the term "family". I understand the whole notion behind taking back a word and claiming possession. But that's not in my nature. I would be horrified to find myself using the word "faggot" or "queer" to refer to a gay person. Queer is an interesting one. While it was used as a derogatory term for homosexuals in the past, it also by definition means "different." That one seems more like a gray area, because being different is being more embraced now. The issue is that very few people use the word queer as meaning different anymore, just like nobody uses the word gay for meaning happy anymore. I have always wondered why the LGBT community has held onto the word.
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