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Post by hehatesshe on Apr 13, 2021 16:34:13 GMT
Troy Brown was better.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 13, 2021 16:56:29 GMT
Top 5 Pats WRs during the dynasty years in terms of impact on success: 1. Troy Brown (Unbelievable versatility and clutch player) 2. Julian Edelman (I would've listened to an argument for Welker here until SB 53) 3. Wes Welker (sickens me he never got a ring) 4. Danny Amendola (not so much in the regular season, but his playoff moments!) 5. Randy Moss (How insane is it that the guy who caught 23 TDs in a season is 5th! Also never won a championship.)
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Post by masterofallgoons on Apr 13, 2021 17:11:24 GMT
Top 5 Pats WRs during the dynasty years in terms of impact on success: 1. Troy Brown (Unbelievable versatility and clutch player) 2. Julian Edelman (I would've listened to an argument for Welker here until SB 53)  3. Wes Welker (sickens me he never got a ring) 4. Danny Amendola (not so much in the regular season, but his playoff moments!) 5. Randy Moss (How insane is it that the guy who caught 23 TDs in a season is 5th! Also never won a championship.)  It's a pretty strong list if a super bowl MVP can't hack it.
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Post by hehatesshe on Apr 13, 2021 17:13:27 GMT
Top 5 Pats WRs during the dynasty years in terms of impact on success: 1. Troy Brown (Unbelievable versatility and clutch player) 2. Julian Edelman (I would've listened to an argument for Welker here until SB 53)  3. Wes Welker (sickens me he never got a ring) 4. Danny Amendola (not so much in the regular season, but his playoff moments!) 5. Randy Moss (How insane is it that the guy who caught 23 TDs in a season is 5th! Also never won a championship.) Â
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 13, 2021 18:21:57 GMT
Top 5 Pats WRs during the dynasty years in terms of impact on success: 1. Troy Brown (Unbelievable versatility and clutch player) 2. Julian Edelman (I would've listened to an argument for Welker here until SB 53) 3. Wes Welker (sickens me he never got a ring) 4. Danny Amendola (not so much in the regular season, but his playoff moments!) 5. Randy Moss (How insane is it that the guy who caught 23 TDs in a season is 5th! Also never won a championship.) It's a pretty strong list if a super bowl MVP can't hack it. I always struggle with where Branch and Moss belong. I can make this list ten times (and probably have), and sometimes Branch could be #4, and sometimes he misses the cut outright. You could probably dig through my posts and find this list with Branch over Moss. It just seems insane to not have Moss on the list and Branch basically occupies the same space as the other possession guys like Welker and Edelman. Moss never won it all, but the 2007 team doesn't go 16-0 without Moss as the ultimate deep threat. Deion, if you're reading this (and no doubt you are!), you'll be back on the list next time, I promise.
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Post by Shane Falco on Apr 13, 2021 19:59:04 GMT
I'm not quoting things at this moment as I am too drunk. Julian Edelman...is NOT a HOF. "Can you tell the story of the NFL without him?" My answer is easily YES. He was awesome just like Wes Welker was. Is Welker a HOF? Is Desmond Howard in the HOF? He was a SB MVP but you could easily omit him from history. Guys can "trend" in today's culture from time to time. However they don't last the test if time. Edelman was good but was he better than Hines Ward? Who apparently can't even get a glimpse of a HOF induction. Welker has zero rings and zero Super Bowl MVPs (though both are Patriots legends). It's not even a serious question, Edelman's not a HOF. Nobody even argued that he was. But his contribution to NFL football is much greater than Desmond Howard. Howard was a journeyman kick returner with a lower yards/return average than Edelman-- and Edelman was also a highly effective starting receiver at the same time. You could easily omit Howard from history because that Packers team won one title; lots of teams win one title. Edelman was a key cog in a football dynasty that stretched throughout his entire career. He played in four Super Bowls (he was on the team for a fifth, but out with injury) and won three of them, providing one of the most iconic catches in Super Bowl history, in maybe the greatest Super Bowl ever played. He followed that up two years later with an MVP performance in yet another Super Bowl win. He's also thrown a TD pass in a playoff game for Christ's sake. He isn't a HOF player, but do the football gods a favor and don't ever mention Desmond Howard in the same breath as Edelman again.      I'll do it again. Desmond Howard and Julian Edelman have 1 Super Bowl MVP to their names. Both of which had an exciting play in a Super Bowl. You asked if you could tell the story of the NFL without Edelman? Then brought up his SB MVP as one of your examples. I simply brought up a random SB MVP (of a game I never watched) to ask if the story could be told without him. The answer is of course it could. Im not saying that Howard was as good as Edelman. Im simply giving an example of how easily a SB MVP could be omitted from history. Also, fuck the football gods.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 13, 2021 20:24:37 GMT
Welker has zero rings and zero Super Bowl MVPs (though both are Patriots legends). It's not even a serious question, Edelman's not a HOF. Nobody even argued that he was. But his contribution to NFL football is much greater than Desmond Howard. Howard was a journeyman kick returner with a lower yards/return average than Edelman-- and Edelman was also a highly effective starting receiver at the same time. You could easily omit Howard from history because that Packers team won one title; lots of teams win one title. Edelman was a key cog in a football dynasty that stretched throughout his entire career. He played in four Super Bowls (he was on the team for a fifth, but out with injury) and won three of them, providing one of the most iconic catches in Super Bowl history, in maybe the greatest Super Bowl ever played. He followed that up two years later with an MVP performance in yet another Super Bowl win. He's also thrown a TD pass in a playoff game for Christ's sake. He isn't a HOF player, but do the football gods a favor and don't ever mention Desmond Howard in the same breath as Edelman again. I'll do it again. Desmond Howard and Julian Edelman have 1 Super Bowl MVP to their names. Both of which had an exciting play in a Super Bowl. You asked if you could tell the story of the NFL without Edelman? Then brought up his SB MVP as one of your examples. I simply brought up a random SB MVP (of a game I never watched) to ask if the story could be told without him. The answer is of course it could. Im not saying that Howard was as good as Edelman. Also, fuck the football gods. Wrong. Edelman has many exciting plays in multiple Super Bowls. Among others, he caught the go ahead TD in a 10 point 4th qtr comeback in Super Bowl 49. He has one of the most iconic catches in NFL and Super Bowl history that embodied the effort you have to exert to comeback from 25 points down in Super Bowl 51. His Super Bowl MVP came in his third championship. Making multiple clutch plays in multiple championship games for one of the sports greatest dynasties in its heyday is better than being some rando who helped a flash in the pan beat an overmatched team in a game nobody ever talks about. That catch and that game are iconic, when was the last time anyone ever brought up Super Bowl 31? If someone is talking about the history of the league or the Super Bowl, how long before they get to Super Bowl 51 or that catch? An incredible catch in the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history isn't a part of the NFL story? That's as absurd as the original argument you made, comparing him to Desmond Howard and saying he doesn't belong in the HOF as if anyone said he did.
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Post by hehatesshe on Apr 13, 2021 20:29:07 GMT
Top 5 Pats WRs during the dynasty years in terms of impact on success: 1. Troy Brown (Unbelievable versatility and clutch player) 2. Julian Edelman (I would've listened to an argument for Welker here until SB 53)  3. Wes Welker (sickens me he never got a ring) 4. Danny Amendola (not so much in the regular season, but his playoff moments!) 5. Randy Moss (How insane is it that the guy who caught 23 TDs in a season is 5th! Also never won a championship.)  I always wanted to see a healthy Terry Glenn get passes from Brady. Can't argue with the historical results, though, but Terry Glenn was on my first ever fantasy football team, and even though I didn't know much and wasn't very good, he'll always hold a special place in my heart for that reason. That team was helmed by one Vinny Testaverde and anchored by Eddie George. Edit: how do I remember that? Because I'm a freak of nature.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Apr 13, 2021 20:35:10 GMT
An all-time Patriots WR, very glad he didn't have to retire on a stretcher. I don't think he'll get into the HOF unless there's a perfect storm of a voting year for his cause. He didn't retire on a stretcher, but he is limping out of the league against his will. You know he'd still be playing if it were at all possible. My wife said, "Too bad his career couldn't end on his own terms." "Most of them don't," I replied. It's funny because numbers-wise he isn't Hall worthy, but as they say about the HOF in any sport, "Can you tell the story of the sport without including him?" You look at Edelman's contributions particularly in the Super Bowl, and I don't think you can. The game winning TD catch in SB 49 (and we know for a fact he was seriously concussed in that game, but we aren't supposed to say that because that means he shouldn't have been out there); The Catch in SB 51; MVP of Super Bowl 53, one of the weirdest, lowest scoring Super Bowls-- in the modern era no less). Truly a legendary player by any measure. If he isn't HOF worthy, we'll have to enjoy his Pats HOF induction ceremony that much more. He was a favorite of mine from his rookie year, glad he played his entire career here. I was thinking, Michael Irvin is in, 3 titles on a dynasty, & he wasn't exactly breaking the bank on stats. Edelman was arguably the 2nd most valuable Patriot during a 3-2 SB stretch. 5 Super Bowl appearances, 3 rings. I say 2nd most valuable because he moved far more chains & played more quality downs I'd say than Gronk (including health reasons). I just think the breadth of NFL HOFers these days is so deep, & WR in particular has tipped away from the RB with volume of great players. Then again, are we even mentioning this stuff without his very own SB MVP trophy? Not sure. I dunno, I'd say 35% he gets in, but I'm not holding my breath either.
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Post by Shane Falco on Apr 13, 2021 20:36:47 GMT
I'll do it again. Desmond Howard and Julian Edelman have 1 Super Bowl MVP to their names. Both of which had an exciting play in a Super Bowl. You asked if you could tell the story of the NFL without Edelman? Then brought up his SB MVP as one of your examples. I simply brought up a random SB MVP (of a game I never watched) to ask if the story could be told without him. The answer is of course it could. Im not saying that Howard was as good as Edelman. Also, fuck the football gods. Wrong. Edelman has many exciting plays in multiple Super Bowls. Among others, he caught the go ahead TD in a 10 point 4th qtr comeback in Super Bowl 49. He has one of the most iconic catches in NFL and Super Bowl history that embodied the effort you have to exert to comeback from 25 points down in Super Bowl 51. His Super Bowl MVP came in his third championship. Making multiple clutch plays in multiple championship games for one of the sports greatest dynasties in its heyday is better than being some rando who helped a flash in the pan beat an overmatched team in a game nobody ever talks about. That catch and that game are iconic, when was the last time anyone ever brought up Super Bowl 31?  If someone is talking about the history of the league or the Super Bowl, how long before they get to Super Bowl 51 or that catch? An incredible catch in the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history isn't a part of the NFL story? That as absurd as the original argument you made, comparing him to Desmond Howard and saying he doesn't belong in the HOF as if anyone said he did.   Sigh...my God dude you tend to get worked up and or care too much about stuff in terms of your Patriots. I never said Edelman didn't have MORE than one exciting play. I simply said he had one so im only wrong in that statement if he had zero. Not sure where you were but just a few years ago after Edelman's said SB MVP many the arguments were made for Edelman in the HOF. So a lot of people over the years have stated he does. You brought up the story of the NFL thing. I simply mentioned how easily a random SB MVP could be forgotten. To me, any SB is random. I dont remember the number of specific SB's. You want to state that a certain SB MVP is better because of the game in which was played? Go for it. To me, they're both the same award that means the same thing. This isn't some sort of personal attack on Julian Edelman or the Patriots. You seem to be taking this a bit too seriously.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Apr 13, 2021 20:41:48 GMT
Top 5 Pats WRs during the dynasty years in terms of impact on success: 1. Troy Brown (Unbelievable versatility and clutch player) 2. Julian Edelman (I would've listened to an argument for Welker here until SB 53) 3. Wes Welker (sickens me he never got a ring) 4. Danny Amendola (not so much in the regular season, but his playoff moments!) 5. Randy Moss (How insane is it that the guy who caught 23 TDs in a season is 5th! Also never won a championship.) 2001 - 2019 for me: 1. Julian Edelman 2. Deion Branch 3. Troy Brown 4. Danny Amendola 5. Randy Moss
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 13, 2021 21:37:45 GMT
Wrong. Edelman has many exciting plays in multiple Super Bowls. Among others, he caught the go ahead TD in a 10 point 4th qtr comeback in Super Bowl 49. He has one of the most iconic catches in NFL and Super Bowl history that embodied the effort you have to exert to comeback from 25 points down in Super Bowl 51. His Super Bowl MVP came in his third championship. Making multiple clutch plays in multiple championship games for one of the sports greatest dynasties in its heyday is better than being some rando who helped a flash in the pan beat an overmatched team in a game nobody ever talks about. That catch and that game are iconic, when was the last time anyone ever brought up Super Bowl 31? If someone is talking about the history of the league or the Super Bowl, how long before they get to Super Bowl 51 or that catch? An incredible catch in the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history isn't a part of the NFL story? That as absurd as the original argument you made, comparing him to Desmond Howard and saying he doesn't belong in the HOF as if anyone said he did. Sigh...my God dude you tend to get worked up and or care too much about stuff in terms of your Patriots. I never said Edelman didn't have MORE than one exciting play. I simply said he had one so im only wrong in that statement if he had zero. Not sure where you were but just a few years ago after Edelman's said SB MVP many the arguments were made for Edelman in the HOF. So a lot of people over the years have stated he does. You brought up the story of the NFL thing. I simply mentioned how easily a random SB MVP could be forgotten. To me, any SB is random. I dont remember the number of specific SB's. You want to state that a certain SB MVP is better because of the game in which was played? Go for it. To me, they're both the same award that means the same thing. This isn't some sort of personal attack on Julian Edelman or the Patriots. You seem to be taking this a bit too seriously. Sigh..I'm not worked up. I'm not the one who quit the site and had to rejoin because my team lost a playoff game, so calm down with the "you're taking this too seriously" talk. I disagree with your commentary, it's that simple. I know it isn't a personal attack on Edelman. Your argument (with nobody) was that he doesn't belong in the HOF and I agreed. You compared him to a scrub player (and then said you weren't comparing them) and I pointed out the difference in their careers. I'm not comparing Super Bowl MVPs, because Edelman's was not an amazing performance by any stretch. The question was whether the story of the NFL and its biggest game could be told without mentioning Edelman, and it can't. You don't have standout moments in three different championships-- one of which being an iconic catch in the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history-- and get forgotten. You're wrong, and that doesn't mean I'm taking this too seriously.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 13, 2021 21:39:28 GMT
Top 5 Pats WRs during the dynasty years in terms of impact on success: 1. Troy Brown (Unbelievable versatility and clutch player) 2. Julian Edelman (I would've listened to an argument for Welker here until SB 53) 3. Wes Welker (sickens me he never got a ring) 4. Danny Amendola (not so much in the regular season, but his playoff moments!) 5. Randy Moss (How insane is it that the guy who caught 23 TDs in a season is 5th! Also never won a championship.) I always wanted to see a healthy Terry Glenn get passes from Brady. Can't argue with the historical results, though, but Terry Glenn was on my first ever fantasy football team, and even though I didn't know much and wasn't very good, he'll always hold a special place in my heart for that reason. That team was helmed by one Vinny Testaverde and anchored by Eddie George. Edit: how do I remember that? Because I'm a freak of nature. Brady's first TD pass was to Terry Glenn, what more do you need?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 13, 2021 21:43:23 GMT
Top 5 Pats WRs during the dynasty years in terms of impact on success: 1. Troy Brown (Unbelievable versatility and clutch player) 2. Julian Edelman (I would've listened to an argument for Welker here until SB 53) 3. Wes Welker (sickens me he never got a ring) 4. Danny Amendola (not so much in the regular season, but his playoff moments!) 5. Randy Moss (How insane is it that the guy who caught 23 TDs in a season is 5th! Also never won a championship.) 2001 - 2019 for me: 1. Julian Edelman 2. Deion Branch 3. Troy Brown 4. Danny Amendola 5. Randy Moss And it hurts to leave Welker off, doesn't it? There's no wrong answer, and someone is always going to get left out if we have to limit it to 5. It's those six guys, however you want to slice it.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Apr 13, 2021 22:20:06 GMT
2001 - 2019 for me: 1. Julian Edelman 2. Deion Branch 3. Troy Brown 4. Danny Amendola 5. Randy Moss And it hurts to leave Welker off, doesn't it? There's no wrong answer, and someone is always going to get left out if we have to limit it to 5. It's those six guys, however you want to slice it.  Without looking up stats or anything you’re saying you rank Amendola above Welker? Rings or no rings Welker was better wasn’t he? I mean not according to Gisele but otherwise?
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Post by Shane Falco on Apr 13, 2021 22:27:39 GMT
Sigh...my God dude you tend to get worked up and or care too much about stuff in terms of your Patriots. I never said Edelman didn't have MORE than one exciting play. I simply said he had one so im only wrong in that statement if he had zero. Not sure where you were but just a few years ago after Edelman's said SB MVP many the arguments were made for Edelman in the HOF. So a lot of people over the years have stated he does. You brought up the story of the NFL thing. I simply mentioned how easily a random SB MVP could be forgotten. To me, any SB is random. I dont remember the number of specific SB's. You want to state that a certain SB MVP is better because of the game in which was played? Go for it. To me, they're both the same award that means the same thing. This isn't some sort of personal attack on Julian Edelman or the Patriots. You seem to be taking this a bit too seriously. Sigh..I'm not worked up. I'm not the one who quit the site and had to rejoin because my team lost a playoff game, so calm down with the "you're taking this too seriously" talk. I disagree with your commentary, it's that simple. I know it isn't a personal attack on Edelman. Your argument (with nobody) was that he doesn't belong in the HOF and I agreed. You compared him to a scrub player (and then said you weren't comparing them) and I pointed out the difference in their careers. I'm not comparing Super Bowl MVPs, because Edelman's was not an amazing performance by any stretch. The question was whether the story of the NFL and its biggest game could be told without mentioning Edelman, and it can't. You don't have standout moments in three different championships-- one of which being an iconic catch in the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history-- and get forgotten. You're wrong, and that doesn't mean I'm taking this too seriously.       1. That's not why I deleted but believe what you want. 2. I think he will be mostly forgotten outside of the New England fanbase in 10 years. That's my opinion. Its hard for an opinion to be wrong. If in 10 years people are still talking about Julian Edelman than sure it'll be wrong and I won't give a shit. To me he is just another good player who had a good career. One that will inevitably be forgotten much like many others over the years.
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Post by Shane Falco on Apr 13, 2021 22:31:20 GMT
And it hurts to leave Welker off, doesn't it? There's no wrong answer, and someone is always going to get left out if we have to limit it to 5. It's those six guys, however you want to slice it.  Without looking up stats or anything you’re saying you rank Amendola above Welker? Rings or no rings Welker was better wasn’t he? I mean not according to Gisele but otherwise? Just a quick stats Google search. Welker had 5 100+ reception seasons with 5 1,000 yard seasons. Amendola at best had 65 receptions and 659 yards. Those are their Patriots stats. Regular season only though.
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Post by hehatesshe on Apr 13, 2021 22:41:52 GMT
Sigh..I'm not worked up. I'm not the one who quit the site and had to rejoin because my team lost a playoff game, so calm down with the "you're taking this too seriously" talk. I disagree with your commentary, it's that simple. I know it isn't a personal attack on Edelman. Your argument (with nobody) was that he doesn't belong in the HOF and I agreed. You compared him to a scrub player (and then said you weren't comparing them) and I pointed out the difference in their careers. I'm not comparing Super Bowl MVPs, because Edelman's was not an amazing performance by any stretch. The question was whether the story of the NFL and its biggest game could be told without mentioning Edelman, and it can't. You don't have standout moments in three different championships-- one of which being an iconic catch in the greatest comeback in Super Bowl history-- and get forgotten. You're wrong, and that doesn't mean I'm taking this too seriously.       1. That's not why I deleted but believe what you want. 2. I think he will be mostly forgotten outside of the New England fanbase in 10 years. That's my opinion. Its hard for an opinion to be wrong. If in 10 years people are still talking about Julian Edelman than sure it'll be wrong and I won't give a shit. To me he is just another good player who had a good career. One that will inevitably be forgotten much like many others over the years. Most players get forgotten outside of their own fanbase in 10 years. Do you think anyone knows who James Lofton is outside of Green Bay?
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Post by Shane Falco on Apr 13, 2021 22:45:53 GMT
1. That's not why I deleted but believe what you want. 2. I think he will be mostly forgotten outside of the New England fanbase in 10 years. That's my opinion. Its hard for an opinion to be wrong. If in 10 years people are still talking about Julian Edelman than sure it'll be wrong and I won't give a shit. To me he is just another good player who had a good career. One that will inevitably be forgotten much like many others over the years. Most players get forgotten outside of their own fanbase in 10 years. Do you think anyone knows who James Lofton is outside of Green Bay? Exactly. I dont even know much of James Lofton. I would likely mistake him for Kenny Lofton. I will probably mistake Edelman for Wes Welker in 10 years.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Apr 13, 2021 22:52:45 GMT
1. That's not why I deleted but believe what you want. 2. I think he will be mostly forgotten outside of the New England fanbase in 10 years. That's my opinion. Its hard for an opinion to be wrong. If in 10 years people are still talking about Julian Edelman than sure it'll be wrong and I won't give a shit. To me he is just another good player who had a good career. One that will inevitably be forgotten much like many others over the years. Most players get forgotten outside of their own fanbase in 10 years. Do you think anyone knows who James Lofton is outside of Green Bay? Well the dude is in the Hall of Fame.
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