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Post by Skaathar on Apr 13, 2021 17:53:43 GMT
than John Walker? Because let's face it, he's pretty much a villain at this point. The the question is, would there be other villains in the MCU who actually come closer to the qualities needed for Captain America?
Zemo? Killmonger? Loki? Thanos?
Who's your pick?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 13, 2021 18:48:17 GMT
The fascinating thing about this show is the (either intentional or unintentional) exploration of what makes a villain. Everybody loves Zemo, who has done much worse things than Walker. But they hate Walker because he's not Captain America. The character was set up for us to hate him, long before he killed anyone or even started talking sh*t with Sam and Bucky. He just went berserk and killed a terrorist (who IIRC moments earlier said he agreed with Karli killing innocent people in support of their ultimate goal) in retaliation for the murder of his partner. Zemo killed a lot of innocent people setting his plan in motion in CW, and arguably is the reason the Avengers split up, which allowed the snap to happen in the first place. But hey, give me an hour of him dancing in the club.
Everyone loves a charismatic villain, even if they know he's wrong. The jerk trying to do the right thing the wrong way is the guy we can't stand.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 13, 2021 18:48:43 GMT
By the way, Zemo as Captain America is a show I would watch in a heartbeat.
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Post by politicidal on Apr 13, 2021 18:58:41 GMT
By the way, Zemo as Captain America is a show I would watch in a heartbeat. I do wonder if they're setting him up for a Thunderbolts spin-off.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 13, 2021 19:02:56 GMT
By the way, Zemo as Captain America is a show I would watch in a heartbeat. I do wonder if they're setting him up for a Thunderbolts spin-off. Yeah it seems like the obvious next step, but I don't see why Zemo would do it. He hates powered people, why would he lead them? Unless the govt tells him the gloves are off and he can kill anyone they're after, I don't see why he would work with them.
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Post by politicidal on Apr 13, 2021 19:06:24 GMT
I do wonder if they're setting him up for a Thunderbolts spin-off. Yeah it seems like the obvious next step, but I don't see why Zemo would do it. He hates powered people, why would he lead them? Unless the govt tells him the gloves are off and he can kill anyone they're after, I don't see why he would work with them. *shrugs* This is Hollywood, make up some manufactured bullshit that changes his mind.
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DarkManX
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Post by DarkManX on Apr 13, 2021 19:57:29 GMT
I can't believe people don't realize he's supposed to be a villain. Even if you don't know the comics the guy was never on the level even from the start.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 13, 2021 20:40:31 GMT
By the way, Zemo as Captain America is a show I would watch in a heartbeat. I do wonder if they're setting him up for a Thunderbolts spin-off. Dark Avengers would be cool as well. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 13, 2021 23:33:05 GMT
I can't believe people don't realize he's supposed to be a villain. Even if you don't know the comics the guy was never on the level even from the start. Which people? Nobody in this thread has denied it.
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Post by Stammerhead on Apr 13, 2021 23:52:25 GMT
I think he works perfectly for the story. He has the build, the confidence and almost has the looks but in the end it’s just not right.
I think it’s to do with that chin.
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DarkManX
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Post by DarkManX on Apr 14, 2021 3:47:07 GMT
I can't believe people don't realize he's supposed to be a villain. Even if you don't know the comics the guy was never on the level even from the start. Which people? Nobody in this thread has denied it. Other idiots on the internet. I guess Wyatt Russell has had to defend his version to morons who don't realize what's happening.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 14, 2021 12:28:34 GMT
Which people? Nobody in this thread has denied it. Other idiots on the internet. I guess Wyatt Russell has had to defend his version to morons who don't realize what's happening. I mean it's clear he's supposed to be a jerk. I actually thought they did a great job making him seem relatable early on, and even in the latest episode he does struggle with some of his decisions (i.e., asking Lamar if he would take the serum, etc.). But ultimately he's a flawed individual cracking under the pressure. I think he's more nuanced than the comic version was originally, but then I haven't read that run since I was a kid. The audience is supposed to distrust/dislike him from the start, simply because he isn't Steve or Sam. The only questions are how bad is he going to get, and is there any redemption to be found with him? They don't have to follow the comics, so maybe they just kill him off. How happy would Zemo be to pull that trigger, and how excited would the audience be to see it? Personally I think it would be much more interesting if he does something heroic at the end of the story, leaving the audience conflicted about his character.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 14, 2021 14:22:54 GMT
I can't believe people don't realize he's supposed to be a villain. Even if you don't know the comics the guy was never on the level even from the start. The second episode of the show portrayed John Walker as a talented and committed soldier who seemed to want to make good on Captain America's legacy. I don't see this iteration of John Walker as a villain. He's certainly turned a dark corner, but he's more misguided than evil. John and Steve are very different kinds of soldiers who fought in very different conflicts. Steve fought in a "good war" that was almost universally thought to be necessary and righteous. Walker fought in unpopular conflicts that were more ambiguous in their objectives and outcomes. Becoming Captain America is a means of balancing out the wrongs he perceives in his career as a soldier. Furthermore, I think Bucky and Sam were way too hard on Walker initially, and they acted unprofessionally towards him. Walker didn't unilaterally decide to become Captain America. He was asked, and he accepted. Sam and Bucky owed him professional courtesy (if not respect) at the very least.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 14:54:28 GMT
By the way, Zemo as Captain America is a show I would watch in a heartbeat. I do wonder if they're setting him up for a Thunderbolts spin-off. There is still that idea with Norman Osborn too
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 14:55:45 GMT
than John Walker? Because let's face it, he's pretty much a villain at this point. The the question is, would there be other villains in the MCU who actually come closer to the qualities needed for Captain America? Zemo? Killmonger? Loki? Thanos? Who's your pick? In what sense? Values? Abilities? If they turned good?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 14, 2021 14:56:03 GMT
I can't believe people don't realize he's supposed to be a villain. Even if you don't know the comics the guy was never on the level even from the start. The second episode of the show portrayed John Walker as a talented and committed soldier who seemed to want to make good on Captain America's legacy. I don't see this iteration of John Walker as a villain. He's certainly turned a dark corner, but he's more misguided than evil. John and Steve are very different kinds of soldiers who fought in very different conflicts. Steve fought in a "good war" that was almost universally thought to be necessary and righteous. Walker fought in unpopular conflicts that were more ambiguous in their objectives and outcomes. Becoming Captain America is a means of balancing out the wrongs he perceives in his career as a soldier. Furthermore, I think Bucky and Sam were way too hard on Walker initially, and they acted unprofessionally towards him. Walker didn't unilaterally decide to become Captain America. He was asked, and he accepted. Sam and Bucky owed him professional courtesy (if not respect) at the very least. Completely agree with most of what you said, particularly with the stuff in bold font. But Walker also came across as entitled, prideful and increasingly arrogant as the story went along. They were dicks to him for sure, but he was also throwing people against walls and yelling, "Do you know who I am?" Hard to imagine Steve or Sam doing that, even to an enemy soldier, much less a non-combatant. The serum augments the good and the bad, so it'll be interesting to see if he can defeat his inner demons or descend completely into madness.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 14, 2021 15:23:33 GMT
The second episode of the show portrayed John Walker as a talented and committed soldier who seemed to want to make good on Captain America's legacy. I don't see this iteration of John Walker as a villain. He's certainly turned a dark corner, but he's more misguided than evil. John and Steve are very different kinds of soldiers who fought in very different conflicts. Steve fought in a "good war" that was almost universally thought to be necessary and righteous. Walker fought in unpopular conflicts that were more ambiguous in their objectives and outcomes. Becoming Captain America is a means of balancing out the wrongs he perceives in his career as a soldier. Furthermore, I think Bucky and Sam were way too hard on Walker initially, and they acted unprofessionally towards him. Walker didn't unilaterally decide to become Captain America. He was asked, and he accepted. Sam and Bucky owed him professional courtesy (if not respect) at the very least. Completely agree with most of what you said, particularly with the stuff in bold font. But Walker also came across as entitled, prideful and increasingly arrogant as the story went along. They were dicks to him for sure, but he was also throwing people against walls and yelling, "Do you know who I am?" Hard to imagine Steve or Sam doing that, even to an enemy soldier, much less a non-combatant. The serum augments the good and the bad, so it'll be interesting to see if he can defeat his inner demons or descend completely into madness. It's true; Walker isn't entirely blameless in this situation; however, entitlement and pride, while generally being undesirable traits, aren't crimes. I think Walker's attitude resulted from him knowing that he would be working alongside with next-level operators who fought in an interstellar conflict. Walker is just a soldier who fought admirably (or maybe not so admirably) in a conventional war. His feelings of inadequacy were justified on some level. He tried to make up for that by wielding the only super-power he had at his disposal - the authority granted to him by the United States of America. And I fully endorse Walker taking the super-soldier serum. It should not have been a question. He is the successor to an instrument of the US government explicitly designed to help fight the wars of the future. He should be no less than Steve Rogers in strength, skill, and mental aptitude. He should be greater than, if anything. It's cold and but impersonal, but Rogers and Walker are blunt instruments. They are living weapons to be deployed in the interest of achieving national objectives. Steve Rogers had qualities that allowed him to transcend that role, but he was also willing and able to carry out his duty.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 15:35:58 GMT
Completely agree with most of what you said, particularly with the stuff in bold font. But Walker also came across as entitled, prideful and increasingly arrogant as the story went along. They were dicks to him for sure, but he was also throwing people against walls and yelling, "Do you know who I am?" Hard to imagine Steve or Sam doing that, even to an enemy soldier, much less a non-combatant. The serum augments the good and the bad, so it'll be interesting to see if he can defeat his inner demons or descend completely into madness. It's true; Walker isn't entirely blameless in this situation; however, entitlement and pride, while generally being undesirable traits, aren't crimes. I think Walker's attitude resulted from him knowing that he would be working alongside with next-level operators who fought in an interstellar conflict. Walker is just a soldier who fought admirably (or maybe not so admirably) in a conventional war. His feelings of inadequacy were justified on some level. He tried to make up for that by wielding the only super-power he had at his disposal - the authority granted to him by the United States of America. And I fully endorse Walker taking the super-soldier serum. It should not have been a question. He is the successor to an instrument of the US government explicitly designed to help fight the wars of the future. He should be no less than Steve Rogers in strength, skill, and mental aptitude. He should be greater than, if anything. It's cold and but impersonal, but Rogers and Walker are blunt instruments. They are living weapons to be deployed in the interest of achieving national objectives. Steve Rogers had qualities that allowed him to transcend that role, but he was also willing and able to carry out his duty. Im not entirely sure I endorse it. Since he represents the US govt, perhaps he shouldve asked for authorization first? Also a risk taking it, which it might be. They couldve run tests to see if it was dangerous. Maybe replicate it or whatever
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 14, 2021 15:42:26 GMT
Completely agree with most of what you said, particularly with the stuff in bold font. But Walker also came across as entitled, prideful and increasingly arrogant as the story went along. They were dicks to him for sure, but he was also throwing people against walls and yelling, "Do you know who I am?" Hard to imagine Steve or Sam doing that, even to an enemy soldier, much less a non-combatant. The serum augments the good and the bad, so it'll be interesting to see if he can defeat his inner demons or descend completely into madness. It's true; Walker isn't entirely blameless in this situation; however, entitlement and pride, while being undesirable traits, aren't crimes. I think Walker's attitude resulted from him knowing that he would be working alongside with next-level operators who fought in an interstellar conflict. Walker is just a soldier who fought admirably (or maybe not so admirably) in a conventional war. His feelings of inadequacy were justified on some level. He tried to make up for that by wielding the only super-power he had at his disposal - the authority granted to him by the United States of America. And I fully endorse Walker taking the super-soldier serum. It should not have been a question. He is the successor to an instrument of the US government explicitly designed to help fight the wars of the future. He should be no less than Steve Rogers in strength, skill, and mental aptitude. He should be greater than, if anything. It's cold and but impersonal, but Rogers and Walker are blunt instruments. They are living weapons to be deployed in the interest of achieving national objectives. Steve Rogers had qualities that allowed him to transcend that role, but he was also willing and able to carry out his duty. It isn't illegal to be a smug prick, but when your attitude causes you to start committing war crimes, you become the villain no matter how honorable your intentions were at the beginning. Feeling inadequate isn't an excuse to go over the deep end. I would've endorsed the government giving Walker the serum (if they had it) from the beginning (but he shouldn't have taken the name Captain America), but taking an untested PED in the field because he got beat up by a couple of chicks is hardly a respectable decision. Maybe he got a raw deal from the government, from Bucky and Sam, maybe he's desperate to live up to an ideal; But he still has to follow the rules of engagement. You can be the villain without realizing it; you can be the villain without being purely 'evil.'
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 14, 2021 16:30:10 GMT
It's true; Walker isn't entirely blameless in this situation; however, entitlement and pride, while being undesirable traits, aren't crimes. I think Walker's attitude resulted from him knowing that he would be working alongside with next-level operators who fought in an interstellar conflict. Walker is just a soldier who fought admirably (or maybe not so admirably) in a conventional war. His feelings of inadequacy were justified on some level. He tried to make up for that by wielding the only super-power he had at his disposal - the authority granted to him by the United States of America. And I fully endorse Walker taking the super-soldier serum. It should not have been a question. He is the successor to an instrument of the US government explicitly designed to help fight the wars of the future. He should be no less than Steve Rogers in strength, skill, and mental aptitude. He should be greater than, if anything. It's cold and but impersonal, but Rogers and Walker are blunt instruments. They are living weapons to be deployed in the interest of achieving national objectives. Steve Rogers had qualities that allowed him to transcend that role, but he was also willing and able to carry out his duty. It isn't illegal to be a smug prick, but when your attitude causes you to start committing war crimes, you become the villain no matter how honorable your intentions were at the beginning. Feeling inadequate isn't an excuse to go over the deep end. I would've endorsed the government giving Walker the serum (if they had it) from the beginning (but he shouldn't have taken the name Captain America), but taking an untested PED in the field because he got beat up by a couple of chicks is hardly a respectable decision. Maybe he got a raw deal from the government, from Bucky and Sam, maybe he's desperate to live up to an ideal; But he still has to follow the rules of engagement. You can be the villain without realizing it; you can be the villain without being purely 'evil.' This is a great debate, and it's what makes the show interesting. Walker has disregarded the rules of engagement and committed a war crime. He should have been given some iteration of the serum on day one. There was no way he could have been expected to cope with enhanced fighters in the battlespace without resorting to some extraordinary means. If that meant taking an experimental PED in the field, then so be it. Had he not murdered an individual in retreat shortly afterward, he would have likely been lauded for his quick thinking and adaptability by his commanders. You can't engage a superior enemy with one hand tied behind your back. I'm not condoning what he did but, escalation of some kind was inevitable. And let's not forget that Bucky and Sam are wholly off-the-books and unauthorized actors with no authority or jurisdiction to apprehend the Flag Smashers (let alone free an enemy agent from prison). I'm sympathetic to John Walker's cause to a certain extent, and I'd be lying if I said that I thought Bucky and Sam were entirely blameless in all of this.
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