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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 14, 2021 16:46:48 GMT
It's true; Walker isn't entirely blameless in this situation; however, entitlement and pride, while generally being undesirable traits, aren't crimes. I think Walker's attitude resulted from him knowing that he would be working alongside with next-level operators who fought in an interstellar conflict. Walker is just a soldier who fought admirably (or maybe not so admirably) in a conventional war. His feelings of inadequacy were justified on some level. He tried to make up for that by wielding the only super-power he had at his disposal - the authority granted to him by the United States of America. And I fully endorse Walker taking the super-soldier serum. It should not have been a question. He is the successor to an instrument of the US government explicitly designed to help fight the wars of the future. He should be no less than Steve Rogers in strength, skill, and mental aptitude. He should be greater than, if anything. It's cold and but impersonal, but Rogers and Walker are blunt instruments. They are living weapons to be deployed in the interest of achieving national objectives. Steve Rogers had qualities that allowed him to transcend that role, but he was also willing and able to carry out his duty. Im not entirely sure I endorse it. Since he represents the US govt, perhaps he shouldve asked for authorization first? Also a risk taking it, which it might be. They couldve run tests to see if it was dangerous. Maybe replicate it or whatever Asking for permission was an option, but I think it would have slowed his progress down significantly. As for the risk, the Flag Smashers seem to be living proof of the formula's stability.
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Post by ReyKahuka on Apr 14, 2021 16:51:52 GMT
It isn't illegal to be a smug prick, but when your attitude causes you to start committing war crimes, you become the villain no matter how honorable your intentions were at the beginning. Feeling inadequate isn't an excuse to go over the deep end. I would've endorsed the government giving Walker the serum (if they had it) from the beginning (but he shouldn't have taken the name Captain America), but taking an untested PED in the field because he got beat up by a couple of chicks is hardly a respectable decision. Maybe he got a raw deal from the government, from Bucky and Sam, maybe he's desperate to live up to an ideal; But he still has to follow the rules of engagement. You can be the villain without realizing it; you can be the villain without being purely 'evil.' This is a great debate, and it's what makes the show interesting. Walker has disregarded the rules of engagement and committed a war crime. He should have been given some iteration of the serum on day one. There was no way he could have been expected to cope with enhanced fighters in the battlespace without resorting to some extraordinary means. If that meant taking an experimental PED in the field, then so be it. Had he not murdered an individual in retreat shortly afterward, he would have likely been lauded for his quick thinking and adaptability by his commanders. You can't engage a superior enemy with one hand tied behind your back. I'm not condoning what he did but, escalation of some kind was inevitable. And let's not forget that Bucky and Sam are wholly off-the-books and unauthorized actors with no authority or jurisdiction to apprehend the Flag Smashers (let alone free an enemy agent from prison). I'm sympathetic to John Walker's cause to a certain extent, and I'd be lying if I said that I thought Bucky and Sam were entirely blameless in all of this. Moral ambiguity abounds in this show. Walker mentions to Lamar (in not so many words) that the end justifies the means, this is exactly what Bucky told Ayo about Zemo. They broke a known terrorist out of prison to aid them in catching another one, but they frown on Walker's methods? The guy Walker killed we're supposed to have sympathy for because "It wasn't me!", but he previously told Karli he agreed with her methods-- which included killing people in that building she bombed, most of whom had nothing to do with whatever discriminatory practices the GRC as an entity may be intentionally or unintentionally guilty of. As I said off the top in this topic, the audience loves Zemo and hates Walker, despite Zemo being far more morally corrupt than Walker. I've already mentioned Walker's entitlement, how about the Dora Milaje showing up and saying they have jurisdiction wherever they go? Or as you pointed out, how are Sam and Bucky even allowed to do this off the books under the Sokovia accords? Zemo complains that all superheroes are fascists, while in the same breath separating them from 'real people.' Zemo, who has made it his mission to decide who the 'real people' are, and thus who deserves to live or die, is talking about the other guys being fascists. That's the stuff that makes this show so good. There's so much gray area to explore with every aspect of the story.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 14, 2021 17:17:34 GMT
This is a great debate, and it's what makes the show interesting. Walker has disregarded the rules of engagement and committed a war crime. He should have been given some iteration of the serum on day one. There was no way he could have been expected to cope with enhanced fighters in the battlespace without resorting to some extraordinary means. If that meant taking an experimental PED in the field, then so be it. Had he not murdered an individual in retreat shortly afterward, he would have likely been lauded for his quick thinking and adaptability by his commanders. You can't engage a superior enemy with one hand tied behind your back. I'm not condoning what he did but, escalation of some kind was inevitable. And let's not forget that Bucky and Sam are wholly off-the-books and unauthorized actors with no authority or jurisdiction to apprehend the Flag Smashers (let alone free an enemy agent from prison). I'm sympathetic to John Walker's cause to a certain extent, and I'd be lying if I said that I thought Bucky and Sam were entirely blameless in all of this. Moral ambiguity abounds in this show. Walker mentions to Lamar (in not so many words) that the end justifies the means, this is exactly what Bucky told Ayo about Zemo. They broke a known terrorist out of prison to aid them in catching another one, but they frown on Walker's methods? The guy Walker killed we're supposed to have sympathy for because "It wasn't me!", but he previously told Karli he agreed with her methods-- which included killing people in that building she bombed, most of whom had nothing to do with whatever discriminatory practices the GRC as an entity may be intentionally or unintentionally guilty of. As I said off the top in this topic, the audience loves Zemo and hates Walker, despite Zemo being far more morally corrupt than Walker. I've already mentioned Walker's entitlement, how about the Dora Milaje showing up and saying they have jurisdiction wherever they go? Or as you pointed out, how are Sam and Bucky even allowed to do this off the books under the Sokovia accords? Zemo complains that all superheroes are fascists, while in the same breath separating them from 'real people.' Zemo, who has made it his mission to decide who the 'real people' are, and thus who deserves to live or die, is talking about the other guys being fascists. That's the stuff that makes this show so good. There's so much gray area to explore with every aspect of the story. Yes, everyone is operating in a gray zone. The Dora is essentially Wakandan Special Forces, and despite Ayo's posturing, she's on a sanctioned mission from her King. It's T'Challa who feels he doesn't have to observe borders when apprehending a fugitive from Wakandan justice. I wonder why they waited until Zemo was out of prison. Maybe the fact that he was incarcerated was good enough for them. Ayo's treatment of Bucky hurt me more than it probably hurt him. I understand building a fail-safe into their technology but exploiting it in the field to the detriment of an ally - in mixed company - was too cold. It was cool to see the girls take all of the boy's toys, though. Zemo, fascist that he is, is likely the only party with a pure motive and clear ideology.
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Post by Grabthar's Hammer on Apr 14, 2021 17:37:57 GMT
I’d watch a young Alexander Pierce be Captain America
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 22:43:13 GMT
Im not entirely sure I endorse it. Since he represents the US govt, perhaps he shouldve asked for authorization first? Also a risk taking it, which it might be. They couldve run tests to see if it was dangerous. Maybe replicate it or whatever Asking for permission was an option, but I think it would have slowed his progress down significantly. As for the risk, the Flag Smashers seem to be living proof of the formula's stability. That is true. Although I want Fda approval damn it! What about long-term effects? What happens when you post late lol
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