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Post by Prime etc. on Apr 20, 2021 20:45:07 GMT
So you can find no comparison in Marvel or DC? Here's an idea..maybe he is a one of a kind. He happens to be asian..so what. Maybe a film is being made because it is different to the majority of other films they made in the franchise rather than "bizarre multicultural propaganda antics". He wasn't created for that purpose...he's been published since the early 70's, had a long print run, was very popular and was made when a deal to adapt the popular TV series Kung-Fu fell through (remember that show...the one when an Asian star was snubbed in favour of a white actor....aaah the good old days) EDIT: I just remembered... Disney didn't own Marvel when Thor and Incredible Hulk were made. Disney had fuck all to do with the casting of those characters. So I guess they weren't applying Disney's bizarre multicultural propaganda antics. Kung Fu went with the bi-racial angle (ah yes, they had to crank up a little by little in those days..) Bruce Lee always looked like he was waiting for trouble.
Maybe they could have found another asian actor to do it but David Carradine at least looked like he wasn't waiting for a fight to happen.
As for your other comment-I already had said Marvel did it--because this anti-white nonsense didn't start with Disney, they just took it to a higher level than many others. Marvel was doing the same. Even FOX did it.
You said why have white characters with flaws--here's an idea--how about non-white characters with flaws? Are we going to see that? Not holding my breath, especially when it comes to China ass-kissing.
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Post by sostie on Apr 20, 2021 20:52:52 GMT
This all started from you claiming Disney had an anti-European stance and had some sort agenda going on....in relation to Marvel movies. Let's not backtrack here...when you said Marvel you meant Marvel under Disney
Not seen Shang Chi...neither of us can comment. I pointed out some flaws BP has...which is more than I can list for Captain America.
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Downey
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Post by Downey on Apr 20, 2021 21:02:05 GMT
Thor didn't need any help and he was as white as you could get. Also Black Panther still needs wakanda tech. Of course he needed help-his hammer---he was an alien too.
Black Panther didnt need all that hi-tech stuff originally and in the movie he is still triumphant--what do his color-coded friends say? "Have to save whitey again?"
In a superhero universe you can be pretty sure that all the heroes will have some kind of magic or tech that helps them you haven't watched the Shang Chi movie yet so you have no way of knowing if he's independent of tech or sorcery or not and the idea of magical rings being used blows your theory sky high.
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Post by Prime etc. on Apr 20, 2021 21:08:07 GMT
This all started from you claiming Disney had an anti-European stance and had some sort agenda going on....in relation to Marvel movies. Let's not backtrack here...when you said Marvel you meant Marvel under Disney
Not seen Shang Chi...neither of us can comment. I pointed out some flaws BP has...which is more than I can list for Captain America.
Disney is the most obvious not the only one. We are talking about Shang-Chi--look at the difference in approach. He should be the one with daddy issues but I suspect they will ignore it unless the Mandarin is his father now.
He's not white so he can avoid all the flaws of the white characters when it comes to personal initiative and being in charge. We won't see fat Shang-Chi as I said.
As for Black Panther, he did not have all those added flaws when he was created. He was not like that in the original version--while at the same time, Captain America and friends had all the angst and problems.
How's Falcon these days? What flaws are hanging off his character?
Oh nothing it seems. He is a natural hero except for his telepathic or pathetic link with a falcon.
Another one chalked on the board.
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Post by sostie on Apr 20, 2021 21:42:22 GMT
Disney is the most obvious not the only one. We are talking about Shang-Chi--look at the difference in approach. He should be the one with daddy issues but I suspect they will ignore it unless the Mandarin is his father now.
Make up your mind what are you complaining about...50 year old comics or new MCU films. There is only a trailer, how do you know how he is portrayed? And you never saw a fat Cap. A fat Iron Man. A fat Ant Man. ONE white character who appeared in seven movies gets depressed and puts on weight in one and as soon as an Asian character turns up in a trailer with no indication on how he will be portrayed you get offended/defensive/paranoid. He did in the films. In he comics? I actually dug out my copy of Fantastic Four today with his first appearance. He's a massive arrogant a-hole in that. Again, what are you talking about. Telepathic link with a bird in the comics. Remote controlled "drone" in the films.
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Post by Prime etc. on Apr 20, 2021 21:56:15 GMT
Make up your mind what are you complaining about...50 year old comics or new MCU films. Complaining about both works fine for me. There is only a trailer, how do you know how he is portrayed?Again, what are you talking about. Telepathic link with a bird in the comics. Remote controlled "drone" in the films. Yeah they got rid of that so I ask what his super powers are.
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Post by sostie on Apr 21, 2021 0:16:05 GMT
Make up your mind what are you complaining about...50 year old comics or new MCU films. Complaining about both works fine for me. There is only a trailer, how do you know how he is portrayed?Again, what are you talking about. Telepathic link with a bird in the comics. Remote controlled "drone" in the films. Yeah they got rid of that so I ask what his super powers are.
None. He uses tech. So he's an "all natural" guy. So that makes Hawkeye (according to you),Iron Man, Ant-Man "all natural", contradicting yourself. You're all over the place.
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Post by Prime etc. on Apr 21, 2021 0:40:53 GMT
None. He uses tech. So he's an "all natural" guy. So that makes Hawkeye (according to you),Iron Man, Ant-Man "all natural", contradicting yourself. You're all over the place. The problems are all over the place so one has to be diverse in observation.
Falcon did not take the soldier serum so here he is-being adventurous and heroic-and he wasn't a nerd, he wasn't a wimpy guy--in fact neither was Luke Cage right? I am going to bet that he wasn't a skinny guy before he got the serum.
If white-the character cannot be all natural and must have some technological crutch. And usually they have parental issues or angst or something that makes them less of a positive heroic image.
There's no white man equivalent of Falcon in the MCU. Also let's point out that the Punisher is Italian so --it does seem like the Western European is a particular target for this kind of negative or hostile treatment.
I think Conan would have had problems with Marvel if he was blonde.
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Post by sostie on Apr 21, 2021 1:47:41 GMT
None. He uses tech. So he's an "all natural" guy. So that makes Hawkeye (according to you),Iron Man, Ant-Man "all natural", contradicting yourself. You're all over the place. The problems are all over the place so one has to be diverse in observation.
Falcon did not take the soldier serum so here he is-being adventurous and heroic-and he wasn't a nerd, he wasn't a wimpy guy--in fact neither was Luke Cage right? I am going to bet that he wasn't a skinny guy before he got the serum.
If white-the character cannot be all natural and must have some technological crutch. And usually they have parental issues or angst or something that makes them less of a positive heroic image.
Falcon did not take the soldier serum so here he is-being adventurous and heroic-and he wasn't a nerd, he wasn't a wimpy guy....ditto Hawkeye. Hawkeye the loving parent/husband and loyal friend. Someone willing to give up his life to save his friend. You seem to think all the white males are just flaws and weakness. You ignore their positive traits & characteristics - brave, loyal, intelligent, good parents, willing to sacrifice themselves for others etc Which black character is shown being a good parent or husband? White ones have been. Which black character was willing to give their life for others? White ones were Having negative and positive traits has nothing to do with propaganda...it's called fleshing out and developing a character. I notice there are no ugly white heroes cast...an easy way to concrete this apparent whites and Europeans are lesser agenda you imagine exists. Oldest trick in the book to demonise an opposing group. Just a note...I've avoided mentioning any female heroes which could fall into most of the categories, but you only seem to be mentioning men and I have a feeling including women might open a new can of worms. Captain Marvel was probably a conscious effort to push a feminist , anti-man agenda.
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Post by Prime etc. on Apr 21, 2021 2:16:02 GMT
Falcon did not take the soldier serum so here he is-being adventurous and heroic-and he wasn't a nerd, he wasn't a wimpy guy....ditto Hawkeye. Hawkeye the loving parent/husband and loyal friend. Someone willing to give up his life to save his friend. You seem to think all the white males are just flaws and weakness. You ignore their positive traits & characteristics - brave, loyal, intelligent, good parents, willing to sacrifice themselves for others etc Which black character is shown being a good parent or husband? White ones have been. Which black character was willing to give their life for others? White ones were Having negative and positive traits has nothing to do with propaganda...it's called fleshing out and developing a character. I notice there are no ugly white heroes cast...an easy way to concrete this apparent whites and Europeans are lesser agenda you imagine exists. Oldest trick in the book to demonise an opposing group. Just a note...I've avoided mentioning any female heroes which could fall into most of the categories, but you only seem to be mentioning men and I have a feeling including women might open a new can of worms. Captain Marvel was probably a conscious effort to push a feminist , anti-man agenda.
Will Smith in Enemy of the State. He was a father and successful lawyer and no marriage problems unlike John McCain or an endless number of white male characters.
It works as propaganda if the presentation of anything normal is suppressed and it does certainly seem to be.
I havent seen the recent black Rocky movies but I gather they are going strong.
Apollo Creed was more intelligent and functional than Rocky was--his mistake was being a nationalist. Because he was against the USSR that got him killed. It was ok when he helped Rocky against the "uppity" Clubber Lang.
The women side of the coin is something else as well. That's why I say the number one thing seems to be a reluctant to show a white man --especially one that fits a certain narrow European ancestry like Anglo-Saxon or Germanic--showing someone like that (without a noticeable accent) as a positive character. You have to go back decades to find Hollywood doing some rare exceptions. John Wayne maybe in some cases.
I have said before, what are the flaws of the 1938 Robin Hood character? As far as I can tell, he has no flaws. He is a nobleman (unlike the traditional story) he's humorous and good-natured, and determined, he is the one teaching Maid Marian about injustice--people still watch that movie so I don't think the possibility of a character presented as simple but overall good has gone out of fashion--you just don't see it being green-lit. And I believe in the case of that movie it was meant to stir up England to be ready to fight. That might have been a reason for it buck the trend.
In Gone With the Wind, both Clark Cable and Leslie Howard are not really doing all that much--even Scarlett's father is kind of a dud.
I dont know where I first clued into it-somebody said that there was a lack of male warrior character stories--adventurous, positive takes on such characters (let's make an exception for outlaws and pirates--but I was thinking of characters who are not breaking any laws). And from what I see that is true-and I think it is a reason why movie stars disappeared--at one time a Charlton Heston or a Gregory Peck were considered good enough for Hollywood even though they were on the skinnier side. Lex Barker went to Europe. Ken Clark.
Clint Walker had some lead parts as a good guy (thank god he wasn't blonde).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2021 2:20:51 GMT
I just found out this movie has the same cinematographer as Spider-Man 2! No wonder it looks good!
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Post by sostie on Apr 21, 2021 2:45:06 GMT
Falcon did not take the soldier serum so here he is-being adventurous and heroic-and he wasn't a nerd, he wasn't a wimpy guy....ditto Hawkeye. Hawkeye the loving parent/husband and loyal friend. Someone willing to give up his life to save his friend. You seem to think all the white males are just flaws and weakness. You ignore their positive traits & characteristics - brave, loyal, intelligent, good parents, willing to sacrifice themselves for others etc Which black character is shown being a good parent or husband? White ones have been. Which black character was willing to give their life for others? White ones were Having negative and positive traits has nothing to do with propaganda...it's called fleshing out and developing a character. I notice there are no ugly white heroes cast...an easy way to concrete this apparent whites and Europeans are lesser agenda you imagine exists. Oldest trick in the book to demonise an opposing group. Just a note...I've avoided mentioning any female heroes which could fall into most of the categories, but you only seem to be mentioning men and I have a feeling including women might open a new can of worms. Captain Marvel was probably a conscious effort to push a feminist , anti-man agenda.
Will Smith in Enemy of the State. He was a father and successful lawyer and no marriage problems unlike John McCain or an endless number of white male characters.
Different characters in different films at different times...no comparison And Tom Cruise was due to play the Smith role but couldn't because Eyes Wide Shut over-ran. They got the next big star they could..Smith. You honestly think they changed the script as soon as he was on board? And if so from what? No propaganda is the presentation of misleading or selective facts in order to promote a political view or agenda. Successful black people with good marriages exist. Ditto white people. Un-successful black people with failed marriages exist. Ditto white people. All those things exist. They are not specific to any race. Nothing is being suppressed. Ready to fight for what?
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Post by Prime etc. on Apr 21, 2021 2:55:16 GMT
I dont think it was written for Tom Cruise. Enemy of the State.
Will Smith was also the heroic pilot in Independence Day--there's another. The Randy Quaid character was a nut and he kills himself...
WW 2. There were other films before 1941--with Errol Flynn-the Sea Hawk or something and at the end they announce they have money to go to war (against Spain or some other 17th century country). Everyone is cheering.
Hurray! We are going to get killed or maimed in battle...
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Post by sostie on Apr 21, 2021 9:07:11 GMT
I dont think it was written for Tom Cruise. Enemy of the State.
It wasn't written for Cruise. Neither was it written for Smith. Neither did they cast a black actor in a role with positive characteristics to promote some sort of agenda. They got the biggest star available when another one couldn't commit t the film. So America made a film to "stir up" England to fight in WW 2, when America itself was reluctant to join the fight, and didn't until over 2 years after the war started, and even then didn't declare war on Germany, only Japan, and only did declare war on Germany after Germany declared war on USA following the declaration against Japan!! That's rich,
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Post by Prime etc. on Apr 21, 2021 15:29:40 GMT
It wasn't written for Cruise. Neither was it written for Smith. Neither did they cast a black actor in a role with positive characteristics to promote some sort of agenda. They got the biggest star available when another one couldn't commit t the film. So America made a film to "stir up" England to fight in WW 2, when America itself was reluctant to join the fight, and didn't until over 2 years after the war started, and even then didn't declare war on Germany, only Japan, and only did declare war on Germany after Germany declared war on USA following the declaration against Japan!! That's rich, No if your theory was true-there would be lots of successful white man stories besides that one. But there aren't. You can't even name a comparable film with such a character because they don't exist. It's like a rule--if white, then add divorce or family problems. Gene Hackman is important in the story but he is the dysfunctional one. He has no family except his cat.
As for The Sea Hawk--Warner Bros and other studios were international in focus-they weren't American-centered. So they would make films designed for international viewers and have political viewpoints on current events---they routinely made films about immigrants (usually Italian) to the US. So there was always the political viewpoint somewhere in the story.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 21, 2021 15:30:18 GMT
Not sure how to feel about this to be honest. The fight choreography seems top notch but looks like they're using wire-fu which is pretty inconsistent with the rest of the MCU. Right now I can't shake the image of it being a mash-up of Ironfist and Mulan. Just hope it turns out way better than both. Not a big fan of wire-fu. I though the stuff on the bus had a Jackie Chan vibe to it, which while unexpected, seemed like it could make for a fun movie. Honestly it doesn't look great, but it doesn't look bad either. I want to see another trailer to get a better feel for the tone of the movie.
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Post by sostie on Apr 21, 2021 16:30:02 GMT
It wasn't written for Cruise. Neither was it written for Smith. Neither did they cast a black actor in a role with positive characteristics to promote some sort of agenda. They got the biggest star available when another one couldn't commit t the film. So America made a film to "stir up" England to fight in WW 2, when America itself was reluctant to join the fight, and didn't until over 2 years after the war started, and even then didn't declare war on Germany, only Japan, and only did declare war on Germany after Germany declared war on USA following the declaration against Japan!! That's rich, No if your theory was true-there would be lots of successful white man stories besides that one. But there aren't. You can't even name a comparable film with such a character because they don't exist. It's like a rule--if white, then add divorce or family problems. Gene Hackman is important in the story but he is the dysfunctional one. He has no family except his cat.
Likewise name all the comparable films with a black lead. The story in Enemy Of The State necessitates that he is successful in work and marriage. Part of the plot is that he has everything taken away from him...his reputation, his employment, his marriage etc. Trying to clear his name and get back what he lost is what makes the character more resilient and determined. They are not traits applied because of the colour of his skin, they are necessary to propel the plot and motivation. The colour of the characters skin is determined only by the fact that the first choice big white star had other commitments and couldnt make the film and the next big star that was available just happened to be black.
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Post by Prime etc. on Apr 21, 2021 17:07:58 GMT
and the next big star that was available just happened to be black. I don't think that is true. I think Hollywood lies as a matter of routine. Look at the sex scandals they covered up.
They have always been politically oriented. You just don't want to see it.
Will Smith was selected to be promoted. It didn't happen by chance. Like Whoopi Goldberg in the 80s getting prominent movie roles which are now forgotten--like Jumpin' Jack Flash. She was hoisted onto the public without their consent. She was chosen. Then they felt she woas better off as a supporting character.
In the 90s there was a drop in movie content-they didn't have as much variety--how many other young action stars came along in the 90s who were white? name them. Who was white who was Will Smith's age being offered comparable parts? There weren't any. If there were, it would have taken some limelight from Smith which is not how Hollywood operates.
When the father falls out of a closet in SCREAM-that's political. There was no way for the girl to drag her father into the closet--it is impossible--the practical thing would have been for her to use a kitchen knife and untie him so he helps her. So they made that decision because the last thing they wanted was a story message where the father aids his daughter which likely would happen in real life more than not. He was awake--and could have helped her with the killers. But that goes against the political angle being promoted.
Lando Calrissian's white servant operated by remote control was not a fluke. That was a deliberate decision.
There are a lot of politics in Hollywood.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 21, 2021 17:41:27 GMT
and the next big star that was available just happened to be black. I don't think that is true. I think Hollywood lies as a matter of routine. Look at the sex scandals they covered up.
They have always been politically oriented. You just don't want to see it.
Will Smith was selected to be promoted. It didn't happen by chance. Like Whoopi Goldberg in the 80s getting prominent movie roles which are now forgotten--like Jumpin' Jack Flash. She was hoisted onto the public without their consent. She was chosen. Then they felt she woas better off as a supporting character.
In the 90s there was a drop in movie content-they didn't have as much variety--how many other young action stars came along in the 90s who were white? name them. Who was white who was Will Smith's age being offered comparable parts? There weren't any. If there were, it would have taken some limelight from Smith which is not how Hollywood operates.
When the father falls out of a closet in SCREAM-that's political. There was no way for the girl to drag her father into the closet--it is impossible--the practical thing would have been for her to use a kitchen knife and untie him so he helps her. So they made that decision because the last thing they wanted was a story message where the father aids his daughter which likely would happen in real life more than not. He was awake--and could have helped her with the killers. But that goes against the political angle being promoted.
Lando Calrissian's white servant operated by remote control was not a fluke. That was a deliberate decision.
There are a lot of politics in Hollywood.
Lando is also criticized for dressing like a pimp, which was also intentional. Suave black space pimp Lando Calrissian. Hey, he was a fun character, I enjoyed watching him. But it doesn't get much more stereotypical than that. Only when he has no choice does he decide to help his friends, is he really elevated as a character above all others? People are 'selected' for promotion all the time in Hollywood. Look at Sam Worthington; a terrible actor who had a run where he was in everything for a while. Somebody was trying hard to get that guy to the next level. Regarding Will Smith, do you honestly believe Hollywood was actively trying to keep the next Tom Cruise from appearing so they could sell Will Smith? You don't think they'd be happy to have more than one cash cow? Not sure what you mean by a drop in movie content in the 90s, it's regarded as one of the better decades for cinema. Generally speaking, I'd say the opposite of what you're saying is true. They probably feel they have to add struggles to the lives of the white leads...because they're white. How much struggle do they have, comparatively speaking? The darker skinned leads are already facing an uphill battle that doesn't have to be stated overtly. Specifically speaking, Whoopi Goldberg had the same career path as many comedians before and after her: Introduce them to a wider audience, then eventually try to showcase their 'range' as a serious actor. Some have worked out better than others, but there are literally too many actors to name who meet these criteria. Look at Bill Burr most recently.
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Post by Prime etc. on Apr 21, 2021 17:52:36 GMT
Lando is also criticized for dressing like a pimp, which was also intentional. Suave black space pimp Lando Calrissian. Hey, he was a fun character, I enjoyed watching him. But it doesn't get much more stereotypical than that. Only when he has no choice does he decide to help his friends, is he really elevated as a character above all others? People are 'selected' for promotion all the time in Hollywood. Look at Sam Worthington; a terrible actor who had a run where he was in everything for a while. Somebody was trying hard to get that guy to the next level. Regarding Will Smith, do you honestly believe Hollywood was actively trying to keep the next Tom Cruise from appearing so they could sell Will Smith? You don't think they'd be happy to have more than one cash cow? Not sure what you mean by a drop in movie content in the 90s, it's regarded as one of the better decades for cinema.
Going backwards--the 90s is certainly not regarded as one of the better decades--compared to today-maybe.
Tom Cruise and Worthington are in fact part of the same political trends.
Worthington is bland--that's no accident. Cruise like DiCaprio, is foisted into roles he is not suited for. They had to give Cruise elevator shoes to play a German officer in one movie (don't worry that there won't be a shortage of WW 2 movies--they could start a WW 2 movie channel, they have so many).
As for Lando, you read his character arc all wrong----he is the one successful character in the series--he's a successful business man, he didnt have much choice to help Vader- he kept challenging Vader about the change in agreement--he was no bad guy---and then he decided finally "I'll activate my white man assistant Lobot to call in the cavalry."
Movie diversity has gone down not up. There were way more black lead movies in the 1970s than now. What's happening is they are cutting the variety--and saying: "Oh look! We have a Chinese superhero now!"
If they have the foolishness to say "hey we finally got a Mexican superhero"
um what about Santo? Zorro?
The Blue Demon?
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