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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Apr 22, 2021 16:48:39 GMT
So senior figures of the CoE are admitting that they are institutionally racist ( www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56817048). They've already shown that they are homophobic and misogynistic. There are countless instances of them covering up child sex abuse cases rather than dealing with them in any way. How can people hold them up to be any sort of "guardians" of moral leadership when all they really are is a group of rich, white, old men trying to keep as much power as they can for rich, white, old men. And are fairly unashamed about how they do it.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Apr 24, 2021 17:35:43 GMT
I'm more interested in theology than scandal. Let the courts and the tabloids deal with it.
When will the Church of England and American Episcopalians admit they are Catholic? The only difference between Anglicans and Catholics is the Pope.
Maybe they don't want that power structure that the Catholic church has
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Post by maya55555 on Apr 24, 2021 20:23:42 GMT
I'm more interested in theology than scandal. Let the courts and the tabloids deal with it.
When will the Church of England and American Episcopalians admit they are Catholic? The only difference between Anglicans and Catholics is the Pope.
There are more differences than simply denying Papal authority.
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Post by gadreel on Apr 24, 2021 21:29:25 GMT
I'm more interested in theology than scandal. Let the courts and the tabloids deal with it.
When will the Church of England and American Episcopalians admit they are Catholic? The only difference between Anglicans and Catholics is the Pope.
The church of England (at least here) is inclusive, whereas the Catholic Church is exclusive, to the point of ridiculousness.
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Post by maya55555 on Apr 24, 2021 21:35:02 GMT
There are more differences than simply denying Papal authority. Which evolved after King Henry VIII wanted license to commit adultery and divorce his wife. He proceeded to do that 5 more times to 5 other women. The Church of England is a farce. gameboyYou are quite correct on that initial point. I was referencing how that church functions today. Funny thing, Henry STILL thought of himself as a Catholic including praying his rosary.
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Post by gadreel on Apr 25, 2021 3:37:07 GMT
The church of England (at least here) is inclusive, whereas the Catholic Church is exclusive, to the point of ridiculousness. Not according to the OP. He cites racism, classism, homophobia and misogyny. How is that inclusive?
And there's this little gem from the BBC:
This happened to a Church of England black employee:
Yes the OP does cite that, although the article only cites racism, and it's certainly reasonable to accuse the Catholic church of the same. No I was particularly referring to the rules around invitations to the table if you will, that is to say communion which is the base acceptance, Catholics will only give or accept communion from/to other Catholics, Anglicans allow anyone to receive, in that manner alone it shows that the Anglican church seeks inclusiveness as opposed the the exclusive membership of the Catholic Church. There is also a much wider range of worship in the Anglican church, from hard out Anglo-Catholics, which are as you accuse pretty much just Catholics, to the more evangelical churches which are far more happy clappy than any Catholic you will meet. There is also the whole celibacy thing.
There are a number of other differences as well.
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Post by maya55555 on Apr 25, 2021 4:08:54 GMT
How so?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2021 8:26:01 GMT
A big difference that needs mentioning between Catholics and C of E and other protestants is...
Protestants believe that salvation is achieved by faith alone (I believe therefore I am saved).
Catholics believe that salvation requires faith, sacraments, and good works (You must be an actively good person as well as believe).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2021 8:48:51 GMT
Catholics are big on statues, Marian worship, and Saints. Protestants aren't.
C of E are big on the queen and national flags. Catholics aren't (seems ungodly to me, revering royal families and nationality 🤷‍♀️).
As a generality in the UK (naturally there are exceptions), the C of E is a wealthy persons church of the establishment and overwhelmingly white.
The Catholic Church is populated by poorer people, and is far more racially and ethnically diverse.
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Post by Stammerhead on Apr 25, 2021 11:18:42 GMT
There are more differences than simply denying Papal authority. Which evolved after King Henry VIII wanted license to commit adultery and divorce his wife. He proceeded to do that 5 more times to 5 other women. The Church of England is a farce. But on the plus side it did lead to us becoming a non-Catholic country. BTW: He only married 4 times after Anne Boleyn but he probably had a few mistresses along the way.
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Post by Stammerhead on Apr 25, 2021 11:27:47 GMT
Catholics are big on statues, Marian worship, and Saints. Protestants aren't. C of E are big on the queen and national flags. Catholics aren't (seems ungodly to me, revering royal families and nationality 🤷‍♀️). As a generality in the UK (naturally there are exceptions), the C of E is a wealthy persons church of the establishment and overwhelmingly white. The Catholic Church is populated by poorer people, and is far more racially and ethnically diverse. My mum put me down as CofE when I was in hospital (I said I was an atheist but was overruled) but when I went to Sunday school it was in a non-CofE hall around the corner. They were some sort of Christian Fellowship congregation who didn’t have priests.
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Post by Stammerhead on Apr 25, 2021 18:16:39 GMT
But on the plus side it did lead to us becoming a non-Catholic country. BTW: He only married 4 times after Anne Boleyn but he probably had a few mistresses along the way. I think it's obvious Protestantism was a positive movement in the history of the West.
But I'm an atheist. And the skeptic inside me wonders how an entire church can be founded on one man's fickleness over women.
The Lord moves in mysterious ways...
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Post by Stammerhead on Apr 25, 2021 18:31:14 GMT
Yes the OP does cite that, although the article only cites racism, and it's certainly reasonable to accuse the Catholic church of the same. No I was particularly referring to the rules around invitations to the table if you will, that is to say communion which is the base acceptance, Catholics will only give or accept communion from/to other Catholics, Anglicans allow anyone to receive, in that manner alone it shows that the Anglican church seeks inclusiveness as opposed the the exclusive membership of the Catholic Church. There is also a much wider range of worship in the Anglican church, from hard out Anglo-Catholics, which are as you accuse pretty much just Catholics, to the more evangelical churches which are far more happy clappy than any Catholic you will meet. There is also the whole celibacy thing.
There are a number of other differences as well.
Lol. Quite frankly I hate the "happy clappy". And in some ways that's what separates Protestantism from Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
Maybe I liken the Anglicans to Catholics because they have less of the "happy clappy" than other Protestants.
And I also did not know there are a few "happy clappy" Anglicans out there too. Lol.
There is Richard Cole from The Communards (man with dark hair and glasses) who became a Church of England priest after the group split up.
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Post by gadreel on Apr 25, 2021 21:13:05 GMT
Yes the OP does cite that, although the article only cites racism, and it's certainly reasonable to accuse the Catholic church of the same. No I was particularly referring to the rules around invitations to the table if you will, that is to say communion which is the base acceptance, Catholics will only give or accept communion from/to other Catholics, Anglicans allow anyone to receive, in that manner alone it shows that the Anglican church seeks inclusiveness as opposed the the exclusive membership of the Catholic Church. There is also a much wider range of worship in the Anglican church, from hard out Anglo-Catholics, which are as you accuse pretty much just Catholics, to the more evangelical churches which are far more happy clappy than any Catholic you will meet. There is also the whole celibacy thing.
There are a number of other differences as well.
Lol. Quite frankly I hate the "happy clappy". And in some ways that's what separates Protestantism from Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
Maybe I liken the Anglicans to Catholics because they have less of the "happy clappy" than other Protestants.
And I also did not know there are a few "happy clappy" Anglicans out there too. Lol.
It may well be just New Zealand where that is more prevalent, but certainly here you can pretty much believe anything and still be an Anglican, which is exactly what the bishop said when my ex wife was ordained. I was surprised at the happy clappiness, and of course that often goes with more exclusive beliefs around sexuality etc.
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Post by Stammerhead on Apr 26, 2021 9:45:06 GMT
There is Richard Cole from The Communards (man with dark hair and glasses) who became a Church of England priest after the group split up. Yeah, he's "happy clappy" alright. Looks and vocals he reminds me of a bit of Andy Bell from Erasure.
That’s Jimmy Somerville who’s singing but here’s Richard Coles dancing in his workplace.
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Post by The Lost One on Apr 26, 2021 10:45:52 GMT
Maybe they don't want that power structure that the Catholic church has The reason was actually a bit more petty and related to royal privilege. King Henry VIII wanted to divorce his wife. There is a lot of debate amongst historians as to how big a role that incident played. Some consider it pivotal, others more the straw that broke the camel's back. Actually, that was his only divorce. He had 2 of his other wives executed as traitors, one marriage was never consummated and so annulled in short order, one wife died of natural causes and the last survived him.
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Post by Stammerhead on Jun 3, 2021 10:42:50 GMT
But on the plus side it did lead to us becoming a non-Catholic country. BTW: He only married 4 times after Anne Boleyn but he probably had a few mistresses along the way. I think it's obvious Protestantism was a positive movement in the history of the West.
But I'm an atheist. And the skeptic inside me wonders how an entire church can be founded on one man's fickleness over women.
The History of English podcast covered this subject in episode 148 and as usual it’s not quite that simple. The reason why he wanted to divorce his first wife was because he needed a male heir (medieval international politics played a big part in this) but Anne only gave birth to one girl after many miscarriages and she was running out of time. He’d already had at least one son outside marriage and didn’t need the church’s blessing to do that as having mistresses seemed to be par the course for royalty (even if they were good Catholics). historyofenglishpodcast.com/
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jun 3, 2021 21:00:31 GMT
There are more differences than simply denying Papal authority. Which evolved after King Henry VIII wanted license to commit adultery and divorce his wife. He proceeded to do that 5 more times to 5 other women. The Church of England is a farce. Henry VIII only divorced two of his wives. Two more of them he certainly wanted rid of but he had them executed instead. One of them died on him. And the last one out lived him. So he didn't do it "5 more times to 5 more women". Also - many Catholic monarchs at that time (and subsequently) were more than happy to commit adultery despite being Catholic.
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