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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Apr 23, 2021 22:24:01 GMT
...to God. Then God would have designed us all to be born with an innate belief in him. Sure if you're a believer in freewill we'd have the ability to reject him, etc. But what does he gain by leaving the whole "will they even believe in a god?" thing to the random chance that they get indoctrinated into a belief from birth? There's still the "will they believe in the right god?" jeopardy to be had, isn't there?
And so many believers (who happen to have been born into religious families that taught them about god/religion from birth and reject the idea of indoctrination) claim that they were born with this innate knowledge that a god existed. So God can obviously do it for some people - why not everyone?
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Post by Admin on Apr 23, 2021 23:51:46 GMT
...to God. Then God would have designed us all to be born with an innate belief in him. Romans 1 says he did just that, but some refuse to recognize it as God. If that's the case, then "believing in God" or "having faith in God" doesn't refer to his existence.
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Post by novastar6 on Apr 25, 2021 17:18:15 GMT
...to God. Then God would have designed us all to be born with an innate belief in him. Sure if you're a believer in freewill we'd have the ability to reject him, etc. But what does he gain by leaving the whole "will they even believe in a god?" thing to the random chance that they get indoctrinated into a belief from birth? There's still the "will they believe in the right god?" jeopardy to be had, isn't there? And so many believers (who happen to have been born into religious families that taught them about god/religion from birth and reject the idea of indoctrination) claim that they were born with this innate knowledge that a god existed. So God can obviously do it for some people - why not everyone?
You forget that before He even created us, He already knew every single thing about us, including who would choose Him and who would not, and He still created them all with the same free will to make those choices anyway.
That's the ultimate parenting, knowing what your kids are going to do before they do it, and letting them pick their own way anyway. For better or worse, it's their choice.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Apr 25, 2021 17:23:27 GMT
...to God. Then God would have designed us all to be born with an innate belief in him. Sure if you're a believer in freewill we'd have the ability to reject him, etc. But what does he gain by leaving the whole "will they even believe in a god?" thing to the random chance that they get indoctrinated into a belief from birth? There's still the "will they believe in the right god?" jeopardy to be had, isn't there? And so many believers (who happen to have been born into religious families that taught them about god/religion from birth and reject the idea of indoctrination) claim that they were born with this innate knowledge that a god existed. So God can obviously do it for some people - why not everyone?
You forget that before He even created us, He already knew every single thing about us, including who would choose Him and who would not, and He still created them all with the same free will to make those choices anyway.
That's the ultimate parenting, knowing what your kids are going to do before they do it, and letting them pick their own way anyway. For better or worse, it's their choice.
Gee... I guess you're right. He already knows everything that we're going to do before we're born so he already knows whether or not we're going to qualify for Heaven or Hell. Which kind of begs the question: why not just send souls straight to Heaven or Hell? Why bother with the whole "life on Earth" bit at all? Unless he enjoys watching people suffer? Is that it? Does he get a kick out of having people being born into crushing poverty or being born with uncurable, painful diseases/deformities? He already knows how well they'll cope with it, so it's not some sort of test... So what is it?
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Post by novastar6 on Apr 25, 2021 17:41:18 GMT
You forget that before He even created us, He already knew every single thing about us, including who would choose Him and who would not, and He still created them all with the same free will to make those choices anyway.
That's the ultimate parenting, knowing what your kids are going to do before they do it, and letting them pick their own way anyway. For better or worse, it's their choice.
Gee... I guess you're right. He already knows everything that we're going to do before we're born so he already knows whether or not we're going to qualify for Heaven or Hell. Which kind of begs the question: why not just send souls straight to Heaven or Hell? Why bother with the whole "life on Earth" bit at all? Unless he enjoys watching people suffer? Is that it? Does he get a kick out of having people being born into crushing poverty or being born with uncurable, painful diseases/deformities? He already knows how well they'll cope with it, so it's not some sort of test... So what is it?
There's a cure for crushing poverty, it's that passage about Christians giving their worldly goods to the poor. And what do you know, it even works when non-Christians do it too.
Incurable today doesn't mean incurable tomorrow, but it requires time for science to study ailments and figure out the causes and treatments and cures. Do you think all the doctors and scientists of the world are just a massive waste of time for their discoveries how to defeat disease and use surgery to correct deformities? Of course then there are the other people who say most illnesses in the world are caused by poor nutrition, but they quickly get shut down by the AMA for practicing medicine without a license, who cares if it's true as long as they can peddle pills and shots that hardly even work for $$$$? Does kind of beg the question though why there are so many more diseases and illnesses today with all these doctors and hospitals and treatments and clinics and drug trials and vaccines, than there were thousands of years ago when most healing was done with herbs and wine and oil and prayer?
And if you read the Bible you'll find several passages about evil people have it good in this world because this is the ONLY good time they're going to have, and good people DO often suffer, ESPECIALLY if they follow after God, then they're advised the world will especially hate them, and try to kill them, and thousands of years later, people STILL prove that true. Gee, it's like thousands of years ago, people knew what they were talking about and knew it would stand the test of time. You'd think people would foresee an evolution where people become indifferent to such things, instead of thousands of years later, still being so violently angry at people who offer charity and love but DO advise people are evil and can't save themselves from their own sins.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Apr 25, 2021 22:15:19 GMT
Gee... I guess you're right. He already knows everything that we're going to do before we're born so he already knows whether or not we're going to qualify for Heaven or Hell. Which kind of begs the question: why not just send souls straight to Heaven or Hell? Why bother with the whole "life on Earth" bit at all? Unless he enjoys watching people suffer? Is that it? Does he get a kick out of having people being born into crushing poverty or being born with uncurable, painful diseases/deformities? He already knows how well they'll cope with it, so it's not some sort of test... So what is it?
There's a cure for crushing poverty, it's that passage about Christians giving their worldly goods to the poor. And what do you know, it even works when non-Christians do it too.
Incurable today doesn't mean incurable tomorrow, but it requires time for science to study ailments and figure out the causes and treatments and cures. Do you think all the doctors and scientists of the world are just a massive waste of time for their discoveries how to defeat disease and use surgery to correct deformities? Of course then there are the other people who say most illnesses in the world are caused by poor nutrition, but they quickly get shut down by the AMA for practicing medicine without a license, who cares if it's true as long as they can peddle pills and shots that hardly even work for $$$$? Does kind of beg the question though why there are so many more diseases and illnesses today with all these doctors and hospitals and treatments and clinics and drug trials and vaccines, than there were thousands of years ago when most healing was done with herbs and wine and oil and prayer?
And if you read the Bible you'll find several passages about evil people have it good in this world because this is the ONLY good time they're going to have, and good people DO often suffer, ESPECIALLY if they follow after God, then they're advised the world will especially hate them, and try to kill them, and thousands of years later, people STILL prove that true. Gee, it's like thousands of years ago, people knew what they were talking about and knew it would stand the test of time. You'd think people would foresee an evolution where people become indifferent to such things, instead of thousands of years later, still being so violently angry at people who offer charity and love but DO advise people are evil and can't save themselves from their own sins.
I don't really know where to start... Let's focus on the medical side of things to start. Saying that doctors will eventually be able to cure diseases the people are born with is hardly a comfort to the many, many thousands (if not millions) of people who have been born before those cures have been discovered, is it? So regardless of whether or not humanity sorts itself out to the point where medicine is freely distributed to people as they need it, your God has been inflicting pain and suffering on people for thousands of years with no hope of respite. Why? Just for the fun of it? To "motivate" us to find a cure faster (to a thing he inflicted on us in the first place)? And saying that the Bible wrote that some "bad people enjoyed happy lives" and "good people endured horrible lives" isn't some brilliant insight - it's stating the obvious. And dressing it up to sound like some mystic justification for the fact that your all-loving God has just sat back and done nothing about it. Especially since you're telling us he already knew from before we were born exactly how we would turn out and our whole time on Earth is pointless. You still haven't given the slightest justification for why he doesn't just send us straight to Heaven/Hell.
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Post by Admin on Apr 25, 2021 22:19:34 GMT
You forget that before He even created us, He already knew every single thing about us, including who would choose Him and who would not, and He still created them all with the same free will to make those choices anyway.
That's the ultimate parenting, knowing what your kids are going to do before they do it, and letting them pick their own way anyway. For better or worse, it's their choice.
Gee... I guess you're right. He already knows everything that we're going to do before we're born so he already knows whether or not we're going to qualify for Heaven or Hell. Which kind of begs the question: why not just send souls straight to Heaven or Hell? Why bother with the whole "life on Earth" bit at all? Unless he enjoys watching people suffer? Is that it? Does he get a kick out of having people being born into crushing poverty or being born with uncurable, painful diseases/deformities? He already knows how well they'll cope with it, so it's not some sort of test... So what is it? If the Bible is the truth, then God does not know everything.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Apr 25, 2021 22:22:31 GMT
If there is a God, there is no reason to belive its the God of the bible, frankly it can just as well be the twelve Olympians as the God of the bible.
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Post by Admin on Apr 25, 2021 22:26:54 GMT
If there is a God, there is no reason to belive its the God of the bible, frankly it can just as well be the twelve Olympians as the God of the bible. Can you describe what you think the "God of the bible" is? I mean, what it is exactly that you are rejecting?
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Apr 25, 2021 22:41:14 GMT
If there is a God, there is no reason to belive its the God of the bible, frankly it can just as well be the twelve Olympians as the God of the bible. Can you describe what you think the "God of the bible" is? I mean, what it is exactly that you are rejecting? Sure i think its a fantasy creature that don`t exist. Also you clearly missed my point.
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Post by Admin on Apr 25, 2021 22:43:11 GMT
Can you describe what you think the "God of the bible" is? I mean, what it is exactly that you are rejecting? Sure i think its a fantasy creature that don`t exist. Also you clearly missed my point. Does your point answer my question? Because your response definitely does not.
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,668
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Post by The Lost One on Apr 26, 2021 9:17:30 GMT
...to God. Then God would have designed us all to be born with an innate belief in him. Unless the reason he values it is because it is difficult? You could also argue that those who just believe because they were brought up to do so lack true faith.
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Post by Isapop on Apr 26, 2021 13:50:17 GMT
If there is a God, there is no reason to belive its the God of the bible, frankly it can just as well be the twelve Olympians as the God of the bible. Can you describe what you think the "God of the bible" is? I mean, what it is exactly that you are rejecting? I think a fair and concise description, according to the Bible, would be the God who loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son to save us from a dreadful outcome that God, for some reason, decreed must otherwise befall us all just because one man sinned. (John 3:16, Rom 5:12)
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Post by moviemouth on Apr 26, 2021 21:21:27 GMT
...to God. Then God would have designed us all to be born with an innate belief in him. Sure if you're a believer in freewill we'd have the ability to reject him, etc. But what does he gain by leaving the whole "will they even believe in a god?" thing to the random chance that they get indoctrinated into a belief from birth? There's still the "will they believe in the right god?" jeopardy to be had, isn't there? And so many believers (who happen to have been born into religious families that taught them about god/religion from birth and reject the idea of indoctrination) claim that they were born with this innate knowledge that a god existed. So God can obviously do it for some people - why not everyone? Many religious people believe we all are born with an innate belief in him.
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Post by moviemouth on Apr 27, 2021 1:58:29 GMT
Many religious people believe we all are born with an innate belief in him. Some religious studies scholars think humans have a propensity to believe in the supernatural. And some sort of spirituality is ubiquitous among all cultures, though not all cultures have gods as specific as the more established religions. Large scale temple worship only became a thing once societies began settling down in one place. None of that surprises me, but they are talking about societies. There is no way anyone could know if every human being on their own would come up with a supernatural concept. Though it would be likely most would, because we are explanation seeking mammals. Before science all we had was whatever our minds came up with.
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Post by Admin on Apr 27, 2021 3:04:14 GMT
None of that surprises me, but they are talking about societies. There is no way anyone could no if every human being on their own would come up with a supernatural concept. Though it would be likely most would, because we are explanation seeking mammals. Before science all we had was whatever our minds came up with. I guess you could say science blew our minds. /rimshot
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Post by moviemouth on Apr 27, 2021 3:23:55 GMT
None of that surprises me, but they are talking about societies. There is no way anyone could no if every human being on their own would come up with a supernatural concept. Though it would be likely most would, because we are explanation seeking mammals. Before science all we had was whatever our minds came up with. I guess you could say science blew our minds. /rimshot lol
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Post by novastar6 on Apr 30, 2021 19:29:44 GMT
The OP seems to forget most of the truly important things are not inborn, they must be taught. Exhibit A, sociopaths. Nobody's born believing in good and evil and right from wrong, if they're not taught these things, they grow up inherently 'knowing' it's okay to kill people, because nobody matters, only me me me my my my matters.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on May 1, 2021 22:18:06 GMT
The OP seems to forget most of the truly important things are not inborn, they must be taught. Exhibit A, sociopaths. Nobody's born believing in good and evil and right from wrong, if they're not taught these things, they grow up inherently 'knowing' it's okay to kill people, because nobody matters, only me me me my my my matters. Two points: 1. General consensus is that nobody knows what causes sociopathy in someone. So "teaching them right and wrong" won't be a magic cure for it. 2. Most sociopaths know what's "right and wrong" - they just don't care/think it applies to them. What does any of that have to do with God wanting to give us the ability to believe in him? Some people (those who happen to be born into religious families and have religion forced on the 24/7 from birth) seem to find it very easy to believe, but those born into non-religious families and who aren't indoctrinate from birth often find it hard to believe. It's almost like it's the indoctrination that leads to belief rather than anything else...?
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Post by novastar6 on May 1, 2021 22:34:20 GMT
The OP seems to forget most of the truly important things are not inborn, they must be taught. Exhibit A, sociopaths. Nobody's born believing in good and evil and right from wrong, if they're not taught these things, they grow up inherently 'knowing' it's okay to kill people, because nobody matters, only me me me my my my matters. Two points: 1. General consensus is that nobody knows what causes sociopathy in someone. So "teaching them right and wrong" won't be a magic cure for it. 2. Most sociopaths know what's "right and wrong" - they just don't care/think it applies to them. What does any of that have to do with God wanting to give us the ability to believe in him? Some people (those who happen to be born into religious families and have religion forced on the 24/7 from birth) seem to find it very easy to believe, but those born into non-religious families and who aren't indoctrinate from birth often find it hard to believe. It's almost like it's the indoctrination that leads to belief rather than anything else...?
People don't know what causes sociopathy, but what results in a full blown sociopath is not getting children professional help for it when they first begin exhibiting symptoms at 3-4 years old. By the time they're 5-6, the damage is largely done and permanent.
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