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Post by sdrew13163 on Apr 23, 2021 23:45:29 GMT
What did everyone think of it?
Personally, I hated it. A convoluted and lame story with a strange moral message surrounded by spurts of ham-fisted political sermons.
And the action was neither frequent nor good enough to makeup for all of that nonsense.
3/10 for me. I was very disappointed considering I really like both of the titular characters. They somehow managed to devolve their friendship.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 23, 2021 23:54:50 GMT
I gave it a five despite the fact that I agreed with everything you said.
The last episode failed as far as I’m concerned. It became a morally bankrupt manifesto for radical politics and terrorist sympathising.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 11:00:10 GMT
I give it an 8 but I agree with you guys. No forced politics
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 11:00:27 GMT
What did everyone think of it? Personally, I hated it. A convoluted and lame story with a strange moral message surrounded by spurts of ham-fisted political sermons. And the action was neither frequent nor good enough to makeup for all of that nonsense. 3/10 for me. I was very disappointed considering I really like both of the titular characters. They somehow managed to devolve their friendship. Why convoluted?
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Post by Archelaus on Apr 24, 2021 21:37:01 GMT
7/10 for now. Compared to WandaVision, this series was definitely more cinematic. The action sequences and fight choreography were well done. Daniel Bruhl returning as Zemo and Wyatt Russell as John Walker were the series' strongest assets. The Flag Smashers were meh. Their cause was just and the series is trying to make us sympathize with them, but they weren't compared to Zemo's portrayal in Civil War. Karli bombing the GRC facility in episode 3 removed any sympathy I may have had. The racial subtext was alright, but I absolutely loved they incorporated Isaiah Bradley into this.
On a final note, the finale episode was a tad disappointing. Sam's speech to the Senator (who is strangely enough also a GRC Delegate) was too long and clunky. Bucky making amends to Yori for killing his son was rushed. Sharon Carter has transformed almost entirely into a different character.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 26, 2021 1:17:33 GMT
I’m rewatching it. 5/10 isn’t fair. I like it better than that. Just the last episode was disappointing.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 26, 2021 4:54:02 GMT
8/10 - very entertaining.
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Post by twothousandonemark on Apr 26, 2021 5:15:20 GMT
What's rather surprising is how little impact these series seem to be having on the MCU at large. 2 years ago I was worried their streaming series would become their crutch, to get more money out of us in lieu of trying with more blockbuster tent pole releases.
The good news seems to be MCU movies will be back on the agenda in just as big a way. I might've been done with the MCU had they veered too far into streamed mini-series.
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Post by Skaathar on Apr 26, 2021 5:22:05 GMT
For most of the show I was thinking I was going to give it a 7... but after the last two episodes I'm dropping it to a 6.
I think them focusing too much on the politics hurt the show in the end.
Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with a number of points they raised, but I feel like they prioritized their politics more than the story and it ended up with the last few episodes having pacing issues, clunky dialogue and a lot of underdeveloped storylines because they chose to put more focus on the politics.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 26, 2021 12:03:32 GMT
7/10. The finale was underwhelming for sure, but overall it was a solid story. I feel like there was some mixed messaging with the politics on the show, but ultimately its heart was in the right place. Looking forward to everything this show sets up; Cap 4, the Dark Avengers/Thunderbolts, even Young Avengers. I will say the Sharon Carter turn makes absolutely no sense; even if she's a skrull (which is the only explanation I'm willing to accept), it still doesn't explain why she would lead Sam, Buck and Zemo directly to her serum supplier. You're sacrificing the story's internal logic to fool the audience, that's just bad writing.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 26, 2021 13:02:18 GMT
I finally saw all episodes on Sunday in a binge watch. Overall, it is pretty satisfying. No complaints on the action sequences, all are well done and there is plenty of it. The preachy ending kinda falls flat. I’m guessing this is due to the production being interrupted and influenced by Covid-19. I hate the new Falcon/Capt America’s costume. It looks awful. Can’t they put a helmet on the dude? The color scheme really draws attention to how goofy his mask has always been. And I know in general they try to avoid masks as much as possible in order to showcase the actors' natural charisma, but the guy is operating a highly maneuverable flying mechanism. He needs a helmet! Hopefully they'll make improvements for the next film. Look at how bad Cap's costume is in Avengers (2012) compared to everything that came later.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 26, 2021 15:22:51 GMT
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was "political" without being "politicized." It's tough to be offended by politics that are so vague and elementary as to be equivalent to those in a YA science fiction novel series. I do not understand all of the unrest over it, but people have to be upset about something, I guess. The show is about as "political" as an installment of the Hunger Games. The problem with that aspect of the show, for me, is not that it's offensive so much as it was on the nose at times.
I didn't mind Sharon's heel turn, but I did think it was way too abrupt. They needed to show (and not just tell) some of what causes her to go from respected SHIELD agent to Madripoor's top crime boss. The transition is so abrupt; it leads me to believe that she might be a member of a certain alien species known for shape-changing.
The suit is not the best work to come out of Wakanda for sure, but it is strikingly comic-book accurate. That I can respect. I'm not sweating it too much as it's practically a tradition for Captain America to have a lousy suit by now. I'll be pissed if it makes it to the big screen even for a second but, for TV, it was fine. It held up in the action scenes a lot better than I thought it would.
Outside of Karli, I didn't feel anything for any other Flagsmasher in the group. When evil Alferd dispenses with them, it barely registered. Some semi-attractive people with superpowers died in a van — the end.
It's kind of cool that Zemo wins --- again. He accomplished the mission he set out to complete. I hope to see him at the head of the table for a Dark Avengers or Thunderbolts outing.
Outside of a few other minor nits, I thought the series was entertaining and, at times, even thrilling.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 26, 2021 15:41:56 GMT
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was "political" without being "politicized." It's tough to be offended by politics that are so vague and elementary as to be equivalent to those in a YA science fiction novel series. I do not understand all of the unrest over it, but people have to be upset about something, I guess. The show is about as "political" as an installment of the Hunger Games. The problem with that aspect of the show is not that it's not offensive so much as it could be on the nose at times. I didn't mind Sharon's heel turn, but I did think it was way too abrupt. They needed to show (and not just tell) some of what causes her to go from respected SHIELD agent to Madripoor's top crime boss. The transition is so abrupt; it leads me to believe that she might be a member of a certain alien species known for shape-changing. The suit is not the best work to come out of Wakanda for sure, but it is strikingly comic-book accurate. That I can respect. I'm not sweating it too much as it's practically a tradition for Captain America to have a lousy suit at some point. I'll be pissed if it makes it to the big screen even for a second but, for TV, it was fine. It held up in the action scenes a lot better than I thought I would. Outside of Karly, I didn't feel anything for any other Flagsmasher in the group. When evil Alferd dispenses with them, It barely registered. Some semi-attractive people with superpowers died in a van — the end. It's kind of cool that Zemo wins --- again. He accomplished the mission he set out to complete. I hope to see him at the head of the table for a Dark Avengers or Thunderbolts outing. I didn't mind the politics, but the speech at the end was overlong and clunky. The fact that the message was so muddled makes you wonder what the point of including it was. It was strange the way they had Sam relate to Karli to the very end, even after they showed her own followers questioning her. Looking forward to seeing more of Zemo (great character, better actor), but I'm curious as to why he would lead a team of superpowered beings. This isn't the comics, MCU Zemo hates them with a passion. He talked at length about it on this very show. He already tried to kill himself once, and was content to let Bucky kill him. Not sure what they could do to threaten or coerce him into doing it. Like I said, I'm all in because I want more Zemo, I just hope they can make more sense of it than they did with the Sharon Carter turn.
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Post by Skaathar on Apr 26, 2021 17:55:13 GMT
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was "political" without being "politicized." It's tough to be offended by politics that are so vague and elementary as to be equivalent to those in a YA science fiction novel series. I do not understand all of the unrest over it, but people have to be upset about something, I guess. The show is about as "political" as an installment of the Hunger Games. The problem with that aspect of the show, for me, is not that it's offensive so much as it was on the nose at times. I didn't have a problem with the political message they wanted to impart, my problem was that they sacrificed good storytelling in order to focus on the political message. Here's a few examples of what I mean: 1. They put so much effort into trying to paint Karli's cause in a sympathetic light that they failed to develop Karli as a character. They were so concerned about focusing on what the Flag Smasher's were saying that they failed to focus on the Flag Smasher's themselves. 2. MCU writing is usually fairly smart, at least in comparison to other superhero shows. Sometimes audiences might even feel that they're having trouble catching up with the discussion in MCU shows, because the shows don't slow down their lines for the audience. But when it came to the political messaging of this show, they kept repeating it multiple times throughout the show, usually in very verbose expositions in order to get the point across. It's like they didn't trust that their audience was smart enough to get the message the first time around, so they repeated it 10 more times. This resulted in some very clunky and dumbed-down dialogue, the best example of which was that final speech Falcon gave to the senators which, for lack of a better word, was some pretty on-the-nose preaching. 3. So much time and effort went into focusing on Sam's transition into Captain America that they let other storylines and character development fall to the side. Almost the entirety of episodes 5 and 6 were focused on Sam, and when your show only has 6 episodes, well, 2 episodes is a lot. Just a few examples of stuff they neglected: a. Walker went from being a murdering psychopath to tag-team partners with Bucky. We had almost zero transition or character development for Walker after he got kicked out of being Captain America. Now he's apparently back to being a hero, although diminished. b. Sharon Carter's heel turn was something we all expected but it was still way too abrupt and violent at the end. They could have taken a bit more time to flesh this side of her out. c. Karli's backstory of working for the power broker was never explored. It was something that was mentioned and then forgotten. d. Bucky's PTSD issues have been completely ignored in the last few episodes. The resolution he gets by talking to that old Asian man is completely rushed and glossed over. We get very little closure for Bucky. In fact, Bucky is given very little to do in the final episode. He talks to Karli on the phone, fights some random flag smashers, saves one truck of people... and that's about it. In comparison, Sam saves not just one but two helicopters in very climactic fashion, has a showdown with Batroc, has a showdown with Karli, saves a truckload of people again in climactic fashion, then gives his big speech in the end. I know they were focusing more on him than on Bucky, but would it really have killed them to take one of those big scenes from Sam and give it to Bucky instead and allow Bucky a bit of time to shine in the final episode of a show he supposedly co-titles in? There are others but I think I already wrote a paragraph as it is. Bottom line, the show felt a bit unbalanced for me because good storytelling was sacrificed in order to focus more on message telling.
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Post by Lord Death Man on Apr 26, 2021 18:06:45 GMT
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier was "political" without being "politicized." It's tough to be offended by politics that are so vague and elementary as to be equivalent to those in a YA science fiction novel series. I do not understand all of the unrest over it, but people have to be upset about something, I guess. The show is about as "political" as an installment of the Hunger Games. The problem with that aspect of the show is not that it's not offensive so much as it could be on the nose at times. I didn't mind Sharon's heel turn, but I did think it was way too abrupt. They needed to show (and not just tell) some of what causes her to go from respected SHIELD agent to Madripoor's top crime boss. The transition is so abrupt; it leads me to believe that she might be a member of a certain alien species known for shape-changing. The suit is not the best work to come out of Wakanda for sure, but it is strikingly comic-book accurate. That I can respect. I'm not sweating it too much as it's practically a tradition for Captain America to have a lousy suit at some point. I'll be pissed if it makes it to the big screen even for a second but, for TV, it was fine. It held up in the action scenes a lot better than I thought I would. Outside of Karly, I didn't feel anything for any other Flagsmasher in the group. When evil Alferd dispenses with them, It barely registered. Some semi-attractive people with superpowers died in a van — the end. It's kind of cool that Zemo wins --- again. He accomplished the mission he set out to complete. I hope to see him at the head of the table for a Dark Avengers or Thunderbolts outing. I didn't mind the politics, but the speech at the end was overlong and clunky. The fact that the message was so muddled makes you wonder what the point of including it was. It was strange the way they had Sam relate to Karli to the very end, even after they showed her own followers questioning her. Looking forward to seeing more of Zemo (great character, better actor), but I'm curious as to why he would lead a team of superpowered beings. This isn't the comics, MCU Zemo hates them with a passion. He talked at length about it on this very show. He already tried to kill himself once, and was content to let Bucky kill him. Not sure what they could do to threaten or coerce him into doing it. Like I said, I'm all in because I want more Zemo, I just hope they can make more sense of it than they did with the Sharon Carter turn. I don't know; I thought there were one or two bright spots in Sam's speech. It wasn't all bad for me, but you're right in that it does lose coherence at multiple moments. The writing could have been crisper. I could empathize with Karli to the degree that had she been motivated in a more positive and constructive direction, she'd have actually been an asset to the people she was trying to help. While I agree that the Carter turn was somewhat sloppy, as a pure piece of entertainment, I like the idea that an "all American" has sort of been disenfranchised and turned to cohesion and organized crime. It shows that anyone, no matter how privileged or respected, is just "one bad day" away from embracing anarchy. There's a story there that they need to tell, and I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think Zemo would head a group of enhanced if it meant taking out a larger group of the same or a very strategic target that lined up with his world view. He's an opportunist at his core. At the very least, I think he'd do it just to be released from prison to plan a more permanent escape.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 26, 2021 18:29:19 GMT
I didn't mind the politics, but the speech at the end was overlong and clunky. The fact that the message was so muddled makes you wonder what the point of including it was. It was strange the way they had Sam relate to Karli to the very end, even after they showed her own followers questioning her. Looking forward to seeing more of Zemo (great character, better actor), but I'm curious as to why he would lead a team of superpowered beings. This isn't the comics, MCU Zemo hates them with a passion. He talked at length about it on this very show. He already tried to kill himself once, and was content to let Bucky kill him. Not sure what they could do to threaten or coerce him into doing it. Like I said, I'm all in because I want more Zemo, I just hope they can make more sense of it than they did with the Sharon Carter turn. I don't know; I thought there were one or two bright spots in Sam's speech. It wasn't all bad for me, but you're right in that it does lose coherence at multiple moments. The writing could have been crisper. I could empathize with Karli to the degree that had she been motivated in a more positive and constructive direction, she'd have actually been an asset to the people she was trying to help. While I agree that the Carter turn was somewhat sloppy, as a pure piece of entertainment, I like the idea that an "all American" has sort of been disenfranchised and turned to cohesion and organized crime. It shows that anyone, no matter how privileged or respected, is just "one bad day" away from embracing anarchy. There's a story there that they need to tell, and I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think Zemo would head a group of enhanced if it meant taking out a larger group of the same or a very strategic target that lined up with his world view. He's an opportunist at his core. At the very least, I think he'd do it just to be released from prison to plan a more permanent escape. What I did like about the speech is that Sam acknowledged there are no easy answers. That aspect of the story is too complex to wrap up with some dialog, it's an issue that this world will be dealing with for a while. As you said earlier about the Carter turn, it needed more time to be fleshed out. I don't buy it without seeing how she got there. (But she's totally skrull. I don't think the MCU wants to ruin the Carter family reputation in the long run.) You know what would make a great Zemo story? Him leading a team of evil (or at least morally compromised) superhumans, turning on them (or getting them to turn on each other) and making his escape. That could be fun, and very much in character.
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Downey
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Post by Downey on Apr 26, 2021 19:08:43 GMT
I finally saw all episodes on Sunday in a binge watch. Overall, it is pretty satisfying. No complaints on the action sequences, all are well done and there is plenty of it. The preachy ending kinda falls flat. I’m guessing this is due to the production being interrupted and influenced by Covid-19. I hate the new Falcon/Capt America’s costume. It looks awful. Can’t they put a helmet on the dude? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that Falcon costume if you liked the previous Falcon costume what the fuck is the problem.
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Post by Skaathar on Apr 26, 2021 19:24:40 GMT
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that Falcon costume if you liked the previous Falcon costume what the fuck is the problem. It is ugly and the half mask looks like his head is cut-off. I keep thinking Ray Liotta in Hannibal. In that costume with the wrap around sunglasses, he looks like an Avenger Pimp. But if you like, that's okay. I'll take his wrap-around goggles over the US Agent's helmet.
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Downey
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Post by Downey on Apr 26, 2021 19:26:18 GMT
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that Falcon costume if you liked the previous Falcon costume what the fuck is the problem. It is ugly and the half mask looks like his head is cut-off. I keep thinking Ray Liotta in Hannibal. In that costume with the wrap around sunglasses, he looks like an Avenger Pimp. But if you like, that's okay. Are you talking about only the head part?
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Downey
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Post by Downey on Apr 26, 2021 19:32:08 GMT
Are you talking about only the head part? With the half-white cowl. Ugh. What would you prefer be done with the cowl?
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