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Post by Power Ranger on May 25, 2021 0:10:05 GMT
Granted, I’ve not seen many spaghetti westerns. I like American westerns particularly of the 70s and late 60s.
* Italian filmmakers were notorious dubbers. Even many celebrated Italian directors of past generations didn’t use any sound recording equipment during filming. In the US, only a small amount of dialogue was recorded in post production. This inevitably effects the performances greatly.
* From my (admittedly limited) experience with spaghetti westerns, the stories were more likely to be cartoonish, focussing heavily on tropes of the westerns with a focus on gunplay. American westerns were often taken from literature.
* Spaghetti westerns had a general inauthentic feel. I can spot the Italian actors a mile away. And they all seem to have some Italians in the cast. These actors just can’t compete with the American character actors, many of whom speak in near exact dialects from the 19th century (which is proven, we have audio recordings of people who lived in the 19th century). Even if American voices are used to dub the English translations (which already greatly compromises the theatricality compared to sound recording during production BTW), they didn’t use the top quality actors for the dubbing that American filmmakers had at their disposal. Sure, spaghetti westerns often had top quality American actors in lead roles, even in cameos, but ultimately some American actors who dubbed the parts that Italians played were no-name actors. If they got Slim Pickens or Chills Wills or guys like that to dub the Italian actors it would be better but they didn’t.
* The dialogue. Westerns had a very rich dialogue at their disposal. Spaghetti westerns were made for international markets. Thus they were intended to be dubbed into many languages. Anyone who thinks that such rich dialogue can be 100% communicated into a dub are kidding themselves. There is always a compromise in a dub. Little nuances are going to be missed. American westerns however were intended primarily for English speaking audiences. The dialogue was supposed be spoken exactly as the script intended. Most spaghetti westerns weren’t even written by English speakers, let alone guys who had an excellent command of English and that of the west.
I like the idea of spaghetti westerns. They were obviously made by people who admired westerns and the old west. But they face too many disadvantages compared to their American counterparts.
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Post by moviemouth on May 25, 2021 0:25:28 GMT
I much prefer American westerns to Spaghetti westerns overall, though The Good, the Bad and the Ugly is among my all-time favorite westerns. This a case where all 3 main characters are played by American actors, but many spaghetti westerns have American actors in a major role speaking with their real voice.
I like them less for many of the same reasons that you list.
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Post by Fox in the Snow on May 25, 2021 0:26:50 GMT
I wish they'd call them Italian westerns
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Post by moviemouth on May 25, 2021 0:30:22 GMT
I wish they'd call them Italian westerns According to veteran Spaghetti Western actor Aldo Sambrell, the phrase "Spaghetti Western" was coined by Spanish journalist Alfonso Sánchez.
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Post by moviemouth on May 25, 2021 0:36:10 GMT
Granted, I’ve not seen many spaghetti westerns. I like American westerns particularly of the 70s and late 60s.This is where we differ. I like the pre-1965 American westerns the most. I am actually not that big of a fan of 1970's American westerns. I just found it funny that we both like American westerns more, but my favorite era of American westerns ends where yours begins. I also haven't seen a lot of spaghetti westerns, but I have seen enough to get the idea. I have seen 15 probably.
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Post by Power Ranger on May 25, 2021 0:43:09 GMT
Granted, I’ve not seen many spaghetti westerns. I like American westerns particularly of the 70s and late 60s.This is where we differ. I like the pre-1960's American westerns the most. I am actually not that big of a fan of 1970's westerns. I also haven't seen a lot of spaghetti westerns, but I have seen enough to get the idea. I have seen 15 probably. I like the Peckinpah films, the Monte Hellman films, even (I’ll be criticised for this) the Michael Winner ones. But also those made by one-off western directors- McCabe and Mrs Miller, The Hired Hand, The Wild Rovers. I love 70s cinema in general and find 70s westerns of the same quality. Most directors wanted to make a western and even though the genre was far from its peak regarding output I find the ones that were made were superlative. |
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Post by moviemouth on May 25, 2021 0:48:13 GMT
This is where we differ. I like the pre-1960's American westerns the most. I am actually not that big of a fan of 1970's westerns. I also haven't seen a lot of spaghetti westerns, but I have seen enough to get the idea. I have seen 15 probably. I like the Peckinpah films, the Monte Hellman films, even (I’ll be criticised for this) the Michael Winner ones. But also those made by one-off western directors- McCabe and Mrs Miller, The Hired Hand, The Wild Rovers. I love 70s cinema in general and find 70s westerns of the same quality. Most directors wanted to make a western and even though the genre was far from its peak regarding output I find the ones that were made were superlative. I love the 1970s era of movies, but to me westerns from that period are nowhere near at the same level of the other movies being made. I respect Peckinpah more than I actually like his movies. They are good, but not anything I would watch again. Michael Winner is one of the most bland directors I have ever watched movies from. I don't think I like any of the movies I have seen from him. As for Hellman I like The Shooting and dislike Ride the Whirlwind. My favorite western from that period is probably Lawman. I am more a fan of John Ford and Anthony Mann and a lot of the one-off from the earlier eras.
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Post by moviemouth on May 25, 2021 0:56:34 GMT
This is where we differ. I like the pre-1960's American westerns the most. I am actually not that big of a fan of 1970's westerns. I also haven't seen a lot of spaghetti westerns, but I have seen enough to get the idea. I have seen 15 probably. I like the Peckinpah films, the Monte Hellman films, even (I’ll be criticised for this) the Michael Winner ones. But also those made by one-off western directors- McCabe and Mrs Miller, The Hired Hand, The Wild Rovers. I love 70s cinema in general and find 70s westerns of the same quality. Most directors wanted to make a western and even though the genre was far from its peak regarding output I find the ones that were made were superlative. I take back one thing about what I said and it is quite ironic actually. Michael Winner I usually find very dull, but my favorite western from the 1970s is probably Chato's Land. I also forgot about The Ballad of Cable Hogue, which is one of my favorite westerns and my favorite Sam Peckinpah movie.
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Post by mikef6 on May 25, 2021 0:57:04 GMT
Granted, I’ve not seen many spaghetti westerns. I like American westerns particularly of the 70s and late 60s.This is where we differ. I like the pre-1965 American westerns the most. I am actually not that big of a fan of 1970's American westerns. I just found it funny that we both like American westerns more, but my favorite era of American westerns ends where yours begins. I also haven't seen a lot of spaghetti westerns, but I have seen enough to get the idea. I have seen 15 probably. I'm with you there. Starting in the late 1960s the pasta based westerns began pushing out the traditional American oater. To compete, many of the Hollywood late-'60s westerns were heavily influenced by the European imports (“Five Man Army,” “A Man Called Sledge” with James Garner). Even formally successful western actors like Audie Murphy saw a shrinking audience for their films so some of Murph’s late features had elements like Audie drawing against 3 outlaws and by fanning the hammer kills them all. That film, "The Texican" (1966) was itself shot (along with the bad guys) in Spain for budget reasons. Murphy and Broderick Crawford were the only English speaking actors in the cast. "The Wild Bunch" (1969) is the American masterpiece created in the image of the Italian western.
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Post by moviemouth on May 25, 2021 0:59:42 GMT
This is where we differ. I like the pre-1965 American westerns the most. I am actually not that big of a fan of 1970's American westerns. I just found it funny that we both like American westerns more, but my favorite era of American westerns ends where yours begins. I also haven't seen a lot of spaghetti westerns, but I have seen enough to get the idea. I have seen 15 probably. I'm with you there. Starting in the late 1960s the pasta based westerns began pushing out the traditional American oater. To compete, many of the Hollywood late-'60s westerns were heavily influenced by the European imports (“Five Man Army,” “A Man Called Sledge” with James Garner). Even formally successful western actors like Audie Murphy saw a shrinking audience for their films so some of Murph’s late features had elements like Audie drawing against 3 outlaws and by fanning the hammer kills them all. That film, "The Texican" (1966) was itself shot (along with the bad guys) in Spain for budget reasons. Murphy and Broderick Crawford were the only English speaking actors in the cast. "The Wild Bunch" (1969) is the American masterpiece created in the image of the Italian western. I like The Wild Bunch, but it isn't even close to one of my favorite westerns.
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Post by Marv on May 25, 2021 1:07:32 GMT
I like both. Im generally a fan of that time and era of history.
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Post by Power Ranger on May 25, 2021 1:07:50 GMT
This is where we differ. I like the pre-1965 American westerns the most. I am actually not that big of a fan of 1970's American westerns. I just found it funny that we both like American westerns more, but my favorite era of American westerns ends where yours begins. I also haven't seen a lot of spaghetti westerns, but I have seen enough to get the idea. I have seen 15 probably. I'm with you there. Starting in the late 1960s the pasta based westerns began pushing out the traditional American oater. To compete, many of the Hollywood late-'60s westerns were heavily influenced by the European imports (“Five Man Army,” “A Man Called Sledge” with James Garner). Even formally successful western actors like Audie Murphy saw a shrinking audience for their films so some of Murph’s late features had elements like Audie drawing against 3 outlaws and by fanning the hammer kills them all. That film, "The Texican" (1966) was itself shot (along with the bad guys) in Spain for budget reasons. Murphy and Broderick Crawford were the only English speaking actors in the cast. "The Wild Bunch" (1969) is the American masterpiece created in the image of the Italian western. I don’t know that The Wild Bunch was influenced by spaghetti westerns. I’ve heard it said but it’s also thought to be a homage to earlier American westerns in many ways. |
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Post by vegalyra on May 25, 2021 1:11:52 GMT
I'm not a fan of spaghetti westerns either. I love the old gladiator films made in Italy and many of those directors went on to doing the spaghetti westerns but something was lost in their transition to a different type of film. Most of the gladiator films have a solid, typically non-ambivalent hero and a diabolical bad guy (or woman). The "hero" of the spaghetti westerns was definitely not that type of character. I guess lots of folks liked that, especially during the latter half of the 1960s and early 1970s.
I enjoy American westerns, mostly from the 1950's up to the mid 1960's. Stewart, Cooper, Wayne, Scott, Widmark, Taylor, Parker, and many others did some very fine films and the genre was at its peak in those years.
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Post by moviemouth on May 25, 2021 1:12:30 GMT
I don’t know that The Wild Bunch was influenced by spaghetti westerns. I’ve heard it said but it’s also thought to be a homage to earlier American westerns in many ways. Probably a combination of both and that is probably part of the reason it is often considered so great. I just have mixed feelings about Sam Peckinpah's style. With that being said, The Wild Bunch is my second favorite Peckinpah movie.
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Post by Prime etc. on May 25, 2021 1:21:11 GMT
I am not a fan of westerns in general--the Valley of Gwangi is my favorite, however I have watched a lot of them in recent years.
I had seen few American ones and those I had, I didn't care for them.
I didn't care for SHANE or HIGH NOON (on the other hand I did watch Maverick and the Rifleman and Have Gun, Will Travel).
I liked the spaghetti westerns better than the American ones because they could be kind of operatic and poetic and I liked that desert locations. They pick really rough looking people--they aren't as glamorous as the US versions.
I understand someone who doesn't like them. i.e. the Leone ones.
They have great style and music but they are simplistic in dialogue and someone might find that cartoonish. Very few of the ones I have seen have sympathetic characters--there are some but in general all the characters are stabbing the other in the back or treacherous.
I really like FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE, DJANGO, THE BIG GUNDOWN, THE RUTHLESS FOUR, FACE TO FACE, THE BELLE STARR STORY, CEMETERY WITHOUT CROSSES.
I wasn't crazy about RIO BRAVO. I don't find the character banter all that fun. I thought the deputy sidekick in EL DORADO was a lot better.
I really liked STAGECOACH though. THE BIG COUNTRY, NIGHT OF THE GRIZZLY, CHUKA I liked.
I did like SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL SHERIFF a lot too. That reminds me, the sequel's 50th anniversary is on my birthday.
The Italian western tends to regard the Old West as a time of criminals and lawlessness and individual focus--there's no concern for the town or the overall community in them usually--depending on the film, the American ones are concentrated on the idea of pioneer virtue and perseverance.
STAGECOACH is all about the idea that it took all kinds of people with different backgrounds and classes and frailties to form the West.
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Post by moviemouth on May 25, 2021 1:25:25 GMT
Some of my favorite early westerns.
The Big Country
Man of the West
Warlock
Day of the Outlaw
Red River
The Westerner
The Naked Spur
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Post by Power Ranger on May 25, 2021 1:50:47 GMT
I don’t know that The Wild Bunch was influenced by spaghetti westerns. I’ve heard it said but it’s also thought to be a homage to earlier American westerns in many ways. Probably a combination of both and that is probably part of the reason it is often considered so great. I just have mixed feelings about Sam Peckinpah's style. With that being said, The Wild Bunch is my second favorite Peckinpah movie. I really love Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid as one of my, if not my favourite film. I encourage you to re-evaluate it. |
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mgmarshall
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@mgmarshall
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Post by mgmarshall on May 25, 2021 1:52:58 GMT
Don't get me wrong when I say this- I love a good John Ford or Howard Hawks western- but most pre-60's Hollywood westerns feel vastly more inauthentic to me than the Spaghetti westerns ever do. Everybody's clothes always look too clean, the colors are too vibrant, they look freshly washed and shaved. It just looks phony to me. Compare this with a Spaghetti western- especially the Leone ones- where the people really do look sweaty and grimy and dust-caked. It's not a measure of quality necessarily, but they do feel more real to me, even with the dubbing. After Peckinpah, Hollywood would finally get the message, and a lot of the Hollywood westerns made post-Wild Bunch again feel a lot more authentic to the era than your average John Wayne movie.
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Post by sdrew13163 on May 25, 2021 1:53:35 GMT
I have not watched nearly enough to make a real decision one way or the other, but I probably prefer Spaghetti westerns as of now.
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Post by Power Ranger on May 25, 2021 1:55:24 GMT
I am not a fan of westerns in general--the Valley of Gwangi is my favorite, however I have watched a lot of them in recent years. I had seen few American ones and those I had, I didn't care for them. I didn't care for SHANE or HIGH NOON (on the other hand I did watch Maverick and the Rifleman and Have Gun, Will Travel). I liked the spaghetti westerns better than the American ones because they could be kind of operatic and poetic and I liked that desert locations. They pick really rough looking people--they aren't as glamorous as the US versions. I understand someone who doesn't like them. i.e. the Leone ones. They have great style and music but they are simplistic in dialogue and someone might find that cartoonish. Very few of the ones I have seen have sympathetic characters--there are some but in general all the characters are stabbing the other in the back or treacherous. I really like FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE, DJANGO, THE BIG GUNDOWN, THE RUTHLESS FOUR, FACE TO FACE, THE BELLE STARR STORY, CEMETERY WITHOUT CROSSES. I wasn't crazy about RIO BRAVO. I don't find the character banter all that fun. I thought the deputy sidekick in EL DORADO was a lot better. I really liked STAGECOACH though. THE BIG COUNTRY, NIGHT OF THE GRIZZLY, CHUKA I liked. I did like SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL SHERIFF a lot too. That reminds me, the sequel's 50th anniversary is on my birthday. The Italian western tends to regard the Old West as a time of criminals and lawlessness and individual focus--there's no concern for the town or the overall community in them usually--depending on the film, the American ones are concentrated on the idea of pioneer virtue and perseverance. STAGECOACH is all about the idea that it took all kinds of people with different backgrounds and classes and frailties to form the West. My opinion is that what popular opinion says about westerns isn’t true. You have to judge them yourself. I don’t care for many of ones that are considered classics. Popular culture gets most things wrong anyway. Fifty years from now a retrospective of sci-fi films of the early 21st century will feature such classics as Avatar! and The Avengers! |
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