lune7000
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@lune7000
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Post by lune7000 on Jun 9, 2021 6:23:38 GMT
About 6 weeks ago, I decided to expand my horizons and try to watch more foreign film. Partly, this was because I noticed that so many on this forum do this and I wanted to see what I was missing. I went online and found several lists of the greatest (?) foreign films. I have watched over 100 films by now.
I have to watch the subtitles of the films I get. The effect is that I feel as though I am reading the movie, not watching it. Often, I can't read and look at facial expressions at the same time. How they actually said their words or phrased things is completely lost to me. Sometimes a movie is so emotional that it breaks through to me but often I feel somewhat distant from the material. If a movie has a simple plot with fun scenery I can get involved (Bicycle Thieves) or if a movie has lots of atmosphere (Spirit of the Beehive) or action (Seven Samurai) or symbols (Seventh Seal) I do well.
I saw the 40's French version of the Beauty and the Beast and it was one of the rare times that I felt the old way I do with an American movie- maybe it was because I knew the story and it had a lot of good music which put me in a mood of enchantment. But most films are a lot of dry reading for me and the experience feels weaker than when I watch American films.
Am I doing something wrong? How do you handle foreign films?
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Post by phantomparticle on Jun 9, 2021 8:49:19 GMT
I've always been able to handle subtitles under the visuals, although few of my friends even tolerate the idea of foreign films without dubbing. I'm a big silent film fan, where the image is interrupted by title cards without sacrificing the visual emotion, and that may have helped me bridge the problem. Slipping down to read a subtitle at least gives you both picture and text at the same time.
I've seen some of them so many times, I can actually skip subtitles here and there, concentrate on the faces and still know what they are saying (the Spanish version of Dracula, 1931, is an excellent example). It may take a bit of patience, but stick with it and soon it will be just another part of your movie experience and you won't give it a second thought.
Enjoy.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jun 9, 2021 9:50:51 GMT
Since American movies are foreign movies, or foreign language movies to most of the world, watching foreign movies is not really that big of a deal
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Post by marshamae on Jun 9, 2021 17:23:53 GMT
When I was young I gobbled up European cinema in my quest to acquire the knowledge and sophistication my home lacked. About 20 years ago I decided to make a run at Japanese and Italian classics. I made it through 3-4 Japanese films and 2 Italian classics.
I pursued , watched and loved a TV mini in Russian of the Bulgakov novel , the Master and Margarita. I read that it was the most faithful adaptation of the novel and it was very satisfying. I don’t really speak Russian but familiarity with the novel and a smattering of vocabulary allowed me to concentrate on the film , with some peeking at the text.
About five years ago on IMDB we had a very interesting conversation about French films made during the German occupation and their role as soft resistance ( though can any resistance be called soft when the consequences were so dire) . Actors were hidden in the studio, banquet scenes with lots of extras were used to feed people without ration cards. The films were fascinating.
All this to say, when I was young I was a culture vulture and that propelled me through the rigors of sub titles . Also I was viewing these films in a theater with like minded friends. The thousand distractions of home did not intrude.
Now I find I have to have another interest in the film, an actor I like, a story I’m interested in, a background I wanted to know about, for me to trudge through a sub titled film. I am just too old to do anything for any reason other than to please myself.
oddly, I love the Met Opera-and the subtitles, whether on the seat back or above the stage, are helpful without being intrusive ,as many opera mavens claim. Again Theater and live performance puts sub titles in their proper perspective.
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Post by marianne48 on Jun 9, 2021 18:18:44 GMT
Why not start slowly-some Jacques Tati or Pierre Etaix? Both filmmakers made works which depended largely on visual comedy, without a lot of dialogue.
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lune7000
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@lune7000
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Post by lune7000 on Jun 9, 2021 18:43:34 GMT
Why not start slowly-some Jacques Tati or Pierre Etaix? Both filmmakers made works which depended largely on visual comedy, without a lot of dialogue. thanks for the tip- I really don't know where to start
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Post by london777 on Jun 10, 2021 0:54:45 GMT
I assume you drive a car? Think of the trouble many people have to pass a driving test. And not surprising when you list all the different actions you have to perform simultaneously, or nearly so. But after three weeks, or three months (it varies), you are driving instinctively without consciously thinking about the separate actions you are taking.
Well, watching a film with sub-titles, you only have two actions to perform. As phantomparticle writes above, it soon becomes instinctive if you persist for a few months. Most literate people have at least a smattering of the main European languages, French, Spanish, Italian, German, etc. Probably not enough to understand continuous dialog, but enough to make us feel that we are not in a hostile alien environment and to pick up a few aural clues to ease our way.
I have been watching a lot of Chinese, Korean and Japanese movies lately and I miss that help. But, and I could be mistaken here, it seems that their culture is not to cram in masses of dialog. Less is more. And that makes it easier to flicker between the screen and the titles without missing anything. And I suspect that Altmanish scenes of characters talking across each other would be considered plain rude.
I have been exasperated lately by a number of American DVDs of praised movies where the choice of subtitles may typically include Spanish and French subtitles, but not English. American is a foreign language to many English-speakers as well, especially in modern films with fast cutting, multi-layered soundtracks, and actors who have barely, if at all, been trained to enunciate. Method mumbling and street vernacular can be very effective in presenting realism, but spare a thought for us poor non-American English speakers. The cost of adding English subtitles must be minimal as no translation is required and they already have the script to copy from.
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Post by london777 on Jun 10, 2021 0:59:53 GMT
... few of my friends even tolerate the idea of foreign films without dubbing. Get some new friends!
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Post by london777 on Jun 10, 2021 4:13:22 GMT
As phantomparticle writes above, it soon becomes instinctive if you persist for a few months. I forgot to add that, these days, thinking back to movies I have very recently watched, I sometimes cannot immediately remember whether or not they were subtitled, so instinctive does it become.
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Post by jeffersoncody on Jun 10, 2021 4:56:41 GMT
I have never ever been bothered by subtitles, and will always choose subtitles over dubbing.
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Post by Fox in the Snow on Jun 10, 2021 10:30:34 GMT
I watch a lot of Non-English language films, probably more than I do English language. Outside of the occasional particularly wordy sequence, you get used to it.
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Post by Fox in the Snow on Jun 10, 2021 10:33:11 GMT
I have never ever been bothered by subtitles, and will always choose subtitles over dubbing. Outside of anime and older genre films (spaghetti westerns, martial arts, etc.) is dubbing even an option. I've never seen a Tarkovsky or Bergman film or anything like that with a dubbed option, not that I'd use it if it was available.
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Post by mikef6 on Jun 10, 2021 15:02:24 GMT
I even watch English language movies with subtitles if they are available. I usually do my movie watching in the evenings when other household members are reading or sleeping so I have to keep the volume low. I like to think that my hearing is not degrading as the years pass but I find myself increasingly thankful for subtitles on any movie I watch.
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Post by marshamae on Jun 10, 2021 15:47:39 GMT
I have never ever been bothered by subtitles, and will always choose subtitles over dubbing. Outside of anime and older genre films (spaghetti westerns, martial arts, etc.) is dubbing even an option. I've never seen a Tarkovsky or Bergman film or anything like that with a dubbed option, not that I'd use it if it was available. I am pretty sure I have seen Bergman films dubbed. I would never choose a dubbed Bergman film because I really appreciate his actors and want to see how they performed. With dubbing half of that is gone.
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Post by teleadm on Jun 10, 2021 18:15:31 GMT
I've seen a lot of French and Italian movies lately, both crime and drama movies, and maybe I've been very lucky with most of them, since many of the directors seems to know not to use too much dialogue and still with the help of movements tell their story, and usually they have turned out to be really good movies, using subtitles.
Some comedies, especially Italian, seems to rely too much on dialogue, and that makes some impossible to follow with sub-titles since I tend to read more than actually watch the movie.
Since English is foreign to me too, I can usually follow them without subtitles, but sometimes I wish I had them, like English cockney or American South, there is a lot that is lost on me.
The Grass Harp 1995, sadly a lot of dialogue was impossible for me to understand, and there was no subtitles.
This Happy Breed 1944, some dialogue was impossible for me to understand, but on this movie there thankfully was subtitles.
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Post by Prime etc. on Jun 10, 2021 19:44:56 GMT
I did finally watch the Seven Samurai which I did find more emotionally impactful than the Magnificent Seven.
I liked the Japanese version of Godzilla 1954 better than the US-release.
I am not crazy about subbtitles if there's a lot of dialogue because people will speak over each other and you cannot follow what they are saying and also watch their faces Maybe subtitles should be above the heads.
I will take a dubbed one if its available. However-not all dubbing is equal. I have been watching some krimis and the dubbing is terrible. They don't use voices that match the character-instead, someone pretends to speak in a different voice which sounds amateur and it adversely affects the viewing experience.
Plus how can we be sure the translation accurately conveys the ideas. I have watched Italian movies alongside an English dub which changed the nature of the scene and character interaction.
I guess the best answer is to learn the language.
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Post by mstreepsucks on Jun 10, 2021 20:36:03 GMT
Since American movies are foreign movies, or foreign language movies to most of the world, watching foreign movies is not really that big of a deal Well no because american films aren't foreign, there's normal films because: Technically here's the definition :
"A foreign language film is defined as a feature-length motion picture (defined as over 40 minutes) produced outside the United States of America with a predominantly non-English dialogue track. Animated and documentary feature films are permitted."
Are british films considered foreign? No.
"Because it is a foreign country. ... As such, the use of the term foreign film for films produced in the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, Canada or other English-speaking countries would be uncommon within other English-speaking countries. So technically no."
So therefore if made in the U.s. it wouldn't technically be foreign film. Unless it is david lynch maybe. He makes foreign films in his Own country.
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lune7000
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@lune7000
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Post by lune7000 on Jun 10, 2021 21:28:35 GMT
The problem with subtitles is that an awful lot is conveyed by how someone says something. Words have emotion- even a slight pause before saying a word changes the feeling. Inflection, articulation-these are all lost in subtitles.
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Post by london777 on Jun 10, 2021 21:45:38 GMT
Since American movies are foreign movies, or foreign language movies to most of the world, watching foreign movies is not really that big of a deal Well no because american films aren't foreign, there's normal films because: Technically here's the definition :
"A foreign language film is defined as a feature-length motion picture (defined as over 40 minutes) produced outside the United States of America with a predominantly non-English dialogue track. Animated and documentary feature films are permitted."
Are british films considered foreign? No.
"Because it is a foreign country. ... As such, the use of the term foreign film for films produced in the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, Canada or other English-speaking countries would be uncommon within other English-speaking countries. So technically no."
So therefore if made in the U.s. it wouldn't technically be foreign film.
That may be the case for you because you are, presumably (?) an American. But Americans only comprise approximately 4% of the total world population, so Feologild Oakes' comment remains valid for the other 96%.
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Post by london777 on Jun 10, 2021 21:54:43 GMT
The problem with subtitles is that an awful lot is conveyed by how someone says something. Words have emotion- even a slight pause before saying a word changes the feeling. Inflection, articulation-these are all lost in subtitles. No-one would suggest that watching a film and relying on subtitles can equal being fluent in the language of its dialogue. We always miss out, sometimes a lot, sometimes not so much. But the question is, would you rather spend your time watching a great or very good film imperfectly and losing out on 10% of its value, or watching a movie in your own language that is not 50% as good in the first place? Although I do not always agree with you, lune7000, I do appreciate your posts which often raise issues to make us think.
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