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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 2:42:12 GMT
I agree with all of that. I should have been more specific. The reason I no longer believe a God exists is because of how much time in my life I have spent thinking about it. I don't know why all other atheists no longer believe that God exists. I was speculating too much. A misconception among hardcore religionists is atheists are rejecting a God they deep down believe in but don’t want to follow his codified morality so they can sin without guilt. I think it is a mix of misconception and other more dishonest things. How many people that claim to be theists "sin" as much (if not more than) atheists? In my experience...most.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 2:42:41 GMT
Keep in mind an atheist is not always someone who rejects all supernatural, paranormal, or metaphysical explanations. It’s that we ideally approach the subjects with skepticism. Empiricism should be front and center to any claims of facts. All revelatory information like the Bible is hearsay and should be treated as such by the non-adherents of that faith. But skepticism is not the same as being close-minded. Religionists are far more close-minded than atheists. I actually remember the first line of thinking that made me skeptical. How could an all loving God punish me for not believing something I am incapable of believing? Theists have all sorts of unconvincing responses to this. You have to have "faith" is the one I heard most. I had always found that kind of faith to be nonsense. The response I hear most often is that isn't a punishment, per se, but more of a consequence - if God is love, where would you be without it?
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 2:49:59 GMT
I actually remember the first line of thinking that made me skeptical. How could an all loving God punish me for not believing something I am incapable of believing? Theists have all sorts of unconvincing responses to this. You have to have "faith" is the one I heard most. I had always found that kind of faith to be nonsense. The response I hear most often is that isn't a punishment, per se, but more of a consequence - if God is love, where would you be without it? The fact that I can't even make sense of that proves my point.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 2:50:39 GMT
I actually remember the first line of thinking that made me skeptical. How could an all loving God punish me for not believing something I am incapable of believing? Theists have all sorts of unconvincing responses to this. You have to have "faith" is the one I heard most. I had always found that kind of faith to be nonsense. The “have to have faith” generally means do not question it. Ever hear of a trust fall? It doesn't work without faith in the one catching you no matter how much you question it.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 2:51:24 GMT
I actually remember the first line of thinking that made me skeptical. How could an all loving God punish me for not believing something I am incapable of believing? Theists have all sorts of unconvincing responses to this. You have to have "faith" is the one I heard most. I had always found that kind of faith to be nonsense. The “have to have faith” generally means do not question it. My point exactly. The only way you can actually believe any of it is to try not to make sense of it and just run with it.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 2:52:38 GMT
The response I hear most often is that isn't a punishment, per se, but more of a consequence - if God is love, where would you be without it? The fact that I can't even make sense of that proves my point. Love is good stuff. Take all the good stuff out of your life and you might call it hell. Personally, I think if there is a typical heaven and hell, it's likely the exact same place.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 2:55:15 GMT
The “have to have faith” generally means do not question it. Ever hear of a trust fall? It doesn't work without faith in the one catching you no matter how much you question it. That isn't the same thing as the faith I hear many theists talk about. We have proof that most people will not just let a person fall, especially if it is a experiment with people watching.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 2:59:04 GMT
The fact that I can't even make sense of that proves my point. Love is good stuff. Take all the good stuff out of your life and you might call it hell. Personally, I think if there is a typical heaven and hell, it's likely the exact same place. I agree with that, but that isn't the same as God is LOVE. If God is the totality of everything than God is LOVE and HATE and GOOD and EVIL and everything else. When you have something you can stretch any way you like you can confuse people into believing it.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 3:08:43 GMT
I think it is a mix of misconception and other more dishonest things. How many people that claim to be theists "sin" as much (if not more than) atheists? In my experience...most. They will answer because as weak humans cannot help but sin, therefore we need God’s forgiveness that we must accept to be true humans. And yet, most sin is simply human survival behavior. Humans beings began in nature as prey animals who over time evolved via natural selection into the top predators. We preyed on nature and each other to survive long enough to produce healthy offspring. So our “sin” is the means of our survival as a species. And who's fault would that be? God's. It shows God is a twisted being that set us up to sin so that we would turn to his forgiveness. What kind of sick shit is that? That is a God that likes to play mind games and fuck with people's immortal soul. God obviously knew Adam and Eve would disobey and arguably before they knew that disobeying was wrong. That would be like me deciding to have a child knowing the child is going to disobey me at some point and then saying "You better ask for my forgiveness or I am going to kill you." That is the opposite of loving and therefor God doesn't exist if he is love.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 3:19:56 GMT
Ever hear of a trust fall? It doesn't work without faith in the one catching you no matter how much you question it. That isn't the same thing as the faith I hear many theists talk about. We have proof that most people will not just let a person fall, especially if it is a experiment with people watching. But you don't have proof that you will be caught. If you let yourself fall, you are having faith in someone to catch you. Or maybe you're a masochist and you're hoping they won't. lol. Is there a difference between trust and faith?
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gw
Junior Member
@gw
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Post by gw on Jun 25, 2021 3:23:45 GMT
No matter what any supposedly all powerful god does, one person can only experience reality one way. True, a god could do multiple realities and they're not restricted to only having one reality but no matter what a god does, I as a mortal person can only experience reality one way and thus a god is limited when it comes to choosing the experience of a lesser being. Sure a god could make other similar mortal beings that experience life differently but there is no getting around the singular experience of a mortal being. So a god could theoretically do anything but can't break past the barrier of having to choose one reality over another, at least for the being living it. The last sentence is just a rephrasing of the one I quoted in my previous response to you, so I'll rephrase my response: If any given entity (real, imaginary, abstract, or otherwise) can do anything, there are no "buts." Seems like a bait and switch. An omniscient, omnipotent being is being advertised, but what I'm being sold is something that has limits. The way I see omnipotence, however, is that a god could do not just anything but everything. And if a god can't do everything, then either we say that god can do anything and plenty of paradoxes show that that can't be true either. To bottom line it, a god has to make decisions and thus can't do everything or for that matter can't do absolutely anything. If a god could do anything, then why wouldn't they, say, turn everything the color blue in this universe, or if there is a multiverse, in several other universes too? Let me ask you this: If a being is all powerful, then how would they get around how a person can only live one life experience? And could they do so without making concretely different realities? The only way I can see a god can keep making different choices is to make different realities for each decision. So what it comes down to, is the closest a god could get to being all powerful is creating different realities where 'such and such event' is possible because there will always be some place where something can't be done. I don't know if I can explain it any better than that.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 3:27:23 GMT
That isn't the same thing as the faith I hear many theists talk about. We have proof that most people will not just let a person fall, especially if it is a experiment with people watching. But you don't have proof that you will be caught. If you let yourself fall, you are having faith in someone to catch you. Or maybe you're a masochist and you're hoping they won't. lol. Is there a difference between trust and faith? Yes there is a difference between trust and the faith that God exists. That is the one I hear most often. I believe because I believe. I have noticed that different theists use the word "faith" in different ways. One of them is equal to trust, the other is "Faith is belief without good evidence." The latter would be me "trusting" in the experiment without any good reason to believe that the person will catch me. That is when you crack your head open falling to the floor. We have proof that most people don't want to see someone crack their head open and will do the right thing, especially if they are being watched by other people.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 3:28:32 GMT
Love is good stuff. Take all the good stuff out of your life and you might call it hell. Personally, I think if there is a typical heaven and hell, it's likely the exact same place. I agree with that, but that isn't the same as God is LOVE. If God is the totality of everything than God is LOVE and HATE and GOOD and EVIL and everything else.
When you have something you can stretch any way you like you can confuse people into believing it. According to the bible: "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8) Also according to the bible: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) To recap... According to the bible, God did not know where Adam was hiding, he is love, and he is responsible for the existence of light, darkness, peace, and evil. Oh, and he's also in hell: "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." (Psalm 139:8) So, who got it wrong?
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 3:36:13 GMT
I agree with that, but that isn't the same as God is LOVE. If God is the totality of everything than God is LOVE and HATE and GOOD and EVIL and everything else.
When you have something you can stretch any way you like you can confuse people into believing it. According to the bible: "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8) Also according to the bible: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) To recap... According to the bible, God did not know where Adam was hiding, he is love, and he is responsible for the existence of light, darkness, peace, and evil. Oh, and he's also in hell: "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." (Psalm 139:8) So, who got it wrong? God didn't know where Adam was hiding? Hmm. Yet he knew a bunch of stuff that would happen in the future ala prophecy, but he didn't know that? Is this the all-knowing all-logically powerful perfect God that I hear most theists talk about? The God you are talking about sounds like the God of mistakes and evil, but then lies and tells us he is love, for...reasons and stuff. This is also the God that killed every person and animal on the planet accept for one family and 2 pairs of some animals. I see you are doing a comedy act now though.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 3:43:45 GMT
And who's fault would that be? God's. It shows God is a twisted being that set us up to sin so that we would turn to his forgiveness. What kind of sick shit is that? That is a God that likes to play mind games and fuck with people's immortal soul. God obviously knew Adam and Eve would disobey and arguably before they knew that disobeying was wrong. That is the opposite of loving and therefor God doesn't exist if he is love. That is the problem if indeed God is exactly who the religionist say he is. This works for orthodox Christianity, Judaism, or Islam and what religionists must jump through hoops to explain and remain true to their belief God is all good, all powerful, etc. Other religions get around this paradox by imaging a God who is both creator and destroyer. The old pagan god Yahweh, who inhabits much of the earlier, more mythical parts of the Hebrew Bible, is such a God. No apologies are made for Yahweh’s own foolishness as witnessed by Moses calling him out when He wants to destroy all the Hebrews who built a Golden Calf to worship after they thought Yahweh had let them down. He is an asshole to Adam and Eve because he himself deceived about the Nature of the Garden. I do love the Hebrew myths and recognize their power as these myths, along with others, are still controlling the world and just might bring about a self-fulfilling prophecy the original, ancient myths didn’t pretend: the End. Yes, of course there are ways to get around that paradox. That still leaves the more important aspect - what reason do I have to believe such a being exists? That is the one that is most important. If not for that, God might as well be Lord Voldemort.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 3:57:16 GMT
Yes, of course there are ways to get around that paradox. That still leaves the more important aspect - what reason do I have to believe such a being exists? That is the one that is most important. If not for that, God might as well be Lord Voldemort. None. How about God is the universe? Cool, someone has now defined God into existence. I remember when I first heard about Pantheists. I was like "What?!!" I love the Deists and the Pantheists. They are at least fun. They are silly, but mostly harmless. I can get on board with place-filler God, just as long as every time the place gets filled that God gets moved further and further back. Then he just becomes meaningless. Even if we found all the answers to "everything" and God wasn't in them, there would still be a place for the Deist God. He would be pushed back to the, "How do we know that we know everything?" We can't, and that is where God would then reside.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 4:21:00 GMT
The last sentence is just a rephrasing of the one I quoted in my previous response to you, so I'll rephrase my response: If any given entity (real, imaginary, abstract, or otherwise) can do anything, there are no "buts." Seems like a bait and switch. An omniscient, omnipotent being is being advertised, but what I'm being sold is something that has limits. The way I see omnipotence, however, is that a god could do not just anything but everything. And if a god can't do everything, then either we say that god can do anything and plenty of paradoxes show that that can't be true either. To bottom line it, a god has to make decisions and thus can't do everything or for that matter can't do absolutely anything. If a god could do anything, then why wouldn't they, say, turn everything the color blue in this universe, or if there is a multiverse, in several other universes too? Let me ask you this: If a being is all powerful, then how would they get around how a person can only live one life experience? And could they do so without making concretely different realities? The only way I can see a god can keep making different choices is to make different realities for each decision. So what it comes down to, is the closest a god could get to being all powerful is creating different realities where 'such and such event' is possible because there will always be some place where something can't be done. I don't know if I can explain it any better than that. I'm not so arrogant as to say that something can't be done simply because I don't know how to do it, but I can speculate what would happen if he turned everything blue: you would ask why he did that. lol As for multi-universes, there can't be more than one because "universe" literally means "everything that exists anywhere." So if than one "bubble" exists, those bubbles collectively would be the universe. Getting back to the point for the sake of Occam's Razor, if the premise is that there's nothing God can't do, then the conclusion cannot be that there's something he can't do. And to presume that he does or doesn't do something because he's an asshole is to fall face first into a big steaming pile of subjectivity.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 4:25:47 GMT
According to the bible: "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John 4:8) Also according to the bible: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7) To recap... According to the bible, God did not know where Adam was hiding, he is love, and he is responsible for the existence of light, darkness, peace, and evil. Oh, and he's also in hell: "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." (Psalm 139:8) So, who got it wrong? God didn't know where Adam was hiding? Hmm. Yet he knew a bunch of stuff that would happen in the future ala prophecy, but he didn't know that? Is this the all-knowing all-logically powerful perfect God that I hear most theists talk about? The God you are talking about sounds like the God of mistakes and evil, but then lies and tells us he is love, for...reasons and stuff. This is also the God that killed every person and animal on the planet accept for one family and 2 pairs of some animals. I see you are doing a comedy act now though. I'm holding an apple. If I drop it, I know it will fall to the ground. Am I a prophet? Yes, I suppose most theists will tell you that God is unlimited in every way. When a Christian says it, show him those verses for a good time. Are you going to get personal now? Sigh.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2021 4:27:50 GMT
How about God is the universe? Cool, someone has now defined God into existence. I remember when I first heard about Pantheists. I was like "What?!!" I love the Deists and the Pantheists. They are at least fun. They are silly, but mostly harmless. I can get on board with place-filler God, just as long as every time the place gets filled that God gets moved further and further back. Then he just becomes meaningless. Even if we found all the answers to "everything" and God wasn't in them, there would still be a place for the Deist God. He would be pushed back to the, "How do we know that we know everything?" We can't, and that is where God would then reside. You could start with the classic First Cause argument. The bookends are: You exist, therefore God.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 25, 2021 4:32:53 GMT
How about God is the universe? Cool, someone has now defined God into existence. I remember when I first heard about Pantheists. I was like "What?!!" I love the Deists and the Pantheists. They are at least fun. They are silly, but mostly harmless. I can get on board with place-filler God, just as long as every time the place gets filled that God gets moved further and further back. Then he just becomes meaningless. Even if we found all the answers to "everything" and God wasn't in them, there would still be a place for the Deist God. He would be pushed back to the, "How do we know that we know everything?" We can't, and that is where God would then reside. You could start with the classic First Cause argument. The bookends are: You exist, therefore God. Yes, you sure could. It would get you nowhere with me fast, but you could do it.
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