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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 23:21:55 GMT
If there's something he can't do, he isn't omnipotent. The contradiction need only worry those who believe in such a being. The rest of us, not being lumbered with such arcane stuff, see the illogicality of necessarily having the inscrutable do the impossible, and just move on. (Incidentally Christians who are kept up at night worrying about where the logic of such literalism leads are recommended to do a Google for the theological concept of a 'Maximal God'. EG readingreligion.org/books/maximal-god I don't worry about it, but thanks for the recommendation.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 23:23:37 GMT
I imagined a flying spaghetti monster today. That would be another QED. The FSM 'cannot really' exist and yet you say you imagined it. Blind people 'cannot really' think of a colour and yet... I am familiar with spaghetti and wings and fangs and hair and plates. Not terribly difficult to put them together in my mind, but I reckon it would be impossible if I had no prior knowledge of any of those things.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 23:24:01 GMT
The contradiction need only worry those who believe in such a being. The rest of us, not being lumbered with such arcane stuff, see the illogicality of necessarily having the inscrutable do the impossible, and just move on. (Incidentally Christians who are kept up at night worrying about where the logic of such literalism leads are recommended to do a Google for the theological concept of a 'Maximal God'. EG readingreligion.org/books/maximal-god There is also the admonition that God™ is omnipotent, but cannot break the laws of reality. SO he can create the rock, but he cant lift it because it's parameters are that it cannot be lifted by him and this does not break the logic of the argument It breaks the premise.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 7, 2021 17:18:11 GMT
You realise that is not possible right? If god can do anything but he cannot life the rock, then he cant do anything. I am not sure if you are familiar with the rock argument, it is not a meditation on the power of God, but the meaning of omnipotence. Your definition of omnipotence, based on your answer is that God™ can do anything, in this instance create a rock he cannot lift and then (because if he could not lift it he would not be omnipotent) also lift it. So your definition of omnipotence when applied to God™ is "Can do anything, including breaking natural laws and universal constants. How do you think this impacts on gods™ perfection? It's neither my claim nor my definition. It's just the premise. If God can do anything (that's the premise), then the answer to any question that begins with "Can God..." is yes, no matter how impossible it may seem to you. It's illogical to conclude that something that is unlimited has limits. You should read more about the rock argument, it's very purpose is a meditation on the definition of omnipotence, of which you seem to be ignoring is not always "God™ can do anything". There are many who would say that the integrity of both a perfect being and the basis of creation are flawed if God™ is capable of doing anything, in fact if God™ is omnipotent like that, why can't is just wipe out disease?
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Post by gadreel on Dec 7, 2021 17:18:41 GMT
There is also the admonition that God™ is omnipotent, but cannot break the laws of reality. SO he can create the rock, but he cant lift it because it's parameters are that it cannot be lifted by him and this does not break the logic of the argument It breaks the premise. It breaks YOUR premise.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 7, 2021 17:20:43 GMT
There is also the admonition that God™ is omnipotent, but cannot break the laws of reality. SO he can create the rock, but he cant lift it because it's parameters are that it cannot be lifted by him and this does not break the logic of the argument Can he pick up the Universe TM?
It depends on your definition, if God™ can do anything without limit then yes it can pick up the universe, there are a number of people who (in some form or another) equate the universe as being fundamentally part of God™ and so God™ being able to pick it up is logically impossible.
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Post by Admin on Dec 7, 2021 20:48:58 GMT
It's neither my claim nor my definition. It's just the premise. If God can do anything (that's the premise), then the answer to any question that begins with "Can God..." is yes, no matter how impossible it may seem to you. It's illogical to conclude that something that is unlimited has limits. You should read more about the rock argument, it's very purpose is a meditation on the definition of omnipotence, of which you seem to be ignoring is not always "God™ can do anything". There are many who would say that the integrity of both a perfect being and the basis of creation are flawed if God™ is capable of doing anything, in fact if God™ is omnipotent like that, why can't is just wipe out disease? As flattering as that is, I can't take credit for THE premise of THE rock argument that YOU presented in this thread. "If God can do anything, can he..." Yes.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 7, 2021 22:23:35 GMT
You should read more about the rock argument, it's very purpose is a meditation on the definition of omnipotence, of which you seem to be ignoring is not always "God™ can do anything". There are many who would say that the integrity of both a perfect being and the basis of creation are flawed if God™ is capable of doing anything, in fact if God™ is omnipotent like that, why can't is just wipe out disease? As flattering as that is, I can't take credit for THE premise of THE rock argument that YOU presented in this thread. "If God can do anything, can he..." Yes. As I say, you should read the rock argument, you are missing a fundamental truth of it.
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Post by Admin on Dec 7, 2021 23:59:25 GMT
As flattering as that is, I can't take credit for THE premise of THE rock argument that YOU presented in this thread. "If God can do anything, can he..." Yes. As I say, you should read the rock argument, you are missing a fundamental truth of it. Does it explain how something that "can do anything" can't do something?
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 8, 2021 21:30:56 GMT
Just FYI: You're applauding a refuted statement. Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. Nonsense. You're trying to re-write what I'm applauding. If god is omnipotent and omnipresent, then that means he also already knows what we are going to do, and how he's going to react to it. we don't really have free will, if he already knows how it's all going to turn out and what the outcome of it will be. Its like programing a robot to walk only one way, and then call it free will when it walks that way! And worse, we send it to hell for having the audacity to do so! Even though WE PROGRAMED IT TO DO SO! If god exists according to those rules then he's a bi-polar jerk! I am much more calmed by the thought that such a bi-polar jerk with all the power of existence at his finger tips does NOT exist. Because if he did we would all be at the whims of an all powerful mad man! You're refuted statement has been un-futed.
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Post by Admin on Dec 9, 2021 0:18:22 GMT
Just FYI: You're applauding a refuted statement. Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. Nonsense. You're trying to re-write what I'm applauding. If god is omnipotent and omnipresent, then that means he also already knows what we are going to do, and how he's going to react to it. we don't really have free will, if he already knows how it's all going to turn out and what the outcome of it will be. Its like programing a robot to walk only one way, and then call it free will when it walks that way! And worse, we send it to hell for having the audacity to do so! Even though WE PROGRAMED IT TO DO SO! If god exists according to those rules then he's a bi-polar jerk! I am much more calmed by the thought that such a bi-polar jerk with all the power of existence at his finger tips does NOT exist. Because if he did we would all be at the whims of an all powerful mad man! You're refuted statement has been un-futed. "If god is omnipotent and omnipresent, then that means he also already knows what we are going to do, and how he's going to react to it. we don't really have free will, if he already knows how it's all going to turn out and what the outcome of it will be."Surely you aren't saying something that can do anything can't predestine its creations without compromising their free will.
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Post by Admin on Dec 10, 2021 4:22:51 GMT
"If god is omnipotent and omnipresent, then that means he also already knows what we are going to do, and how he's going to react to it. we don't really have free will, if he already knows how it's all going to turn out and what the outcome of it will be."Surely you aren't saying something that can do anything can't predestine its creations without compromising their free will. As far as God is concerned, every moment of ever single human in history has already occurred and he knows our fate. So, from instant you were conceived, the fact of your reward or punishment was locked in. It was locked before your parents met or grand parents were born and at the first single cell life appeared on Planet Earth. Even before he created the Earth, at the Big Bang, where you ended up after death was set in stone. And since God does not exist in time, but Is, your future self is either in Heaven or Hell. You can pray to God to change your fate, to save you, but if he knows you’re in Hell, there’s nothing he can do for you because it’s already done. Is this free will? Also, do you think other intelligent creatures in Universe worry about this stuff? Did God send his son to save them too or just certain people? God can do anything, but he can't do that?
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Post by Admin on Dec 10, 2021 4:55:22 GMT
God can do anything, but he can't do that? If it’s already done, why should he make an exception for you and back it back to beginning and start over, Job? Like I said, the fate of universe is closed because past, present, future are human conceptions of linear space-time. God says, I Be.This is an argument from Calvinist theology, though I don’t think most nowadays Presbyterians worry about it like the Puritans did. If there’s a God, he a fuzzy one that doesn’t have much control beyond the quantum woo. If the premise is that God can do anything, then the conclusion can't be that there's something he can't do. Whether or not he should is irrelevant.
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Post by Admin on Dec 10, 2021 5:32:55 GMT
If the premise is that God can do anything, then the conclusion can't be that there's something he can't do. Whether or not he should is irrelevant. It’s not that he can or cannot; it’s that he will not. His will be done. He done did it. We’re just catching up inside the space-time dimension. We exist in time where free will is hilly nilly, He does not exist in spacetime. Anything he can do he’s done because he set the perimeters of weights and measures that apply to us not him at the moment of the Big Bang…if that theory is correct. So, the question about the rock is a paradox because it makes no rational sense. Nonsense is something God should be vexed with. How unsearchable are his ways; it’s a mystery. No... If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?The question does not address his will. "Nonsense remains nonsense even when we speak it of God." -CS Lewis
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Post by Admin on Dec 10, 2021 6:26:38 GMT
No... If God can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?The question does not address his will. "Nonsense remains nonsense even when we speak it of God." -CS Lewis CS Lewis doesn’t know what’s in God head anymore than Job did and look what happened to him…and Job didn’t even ask for it. Name one passage in the Holy Scripture God entertains illogical nonsense. If Moses had asked G-d to create a rock too heavy for even Him to lift, he’d dropped the saving of Israelites right then and there. “Nope, better find another tribe to reveal myself to, saith the LORD…hmm, maybe the Greeks.” Actually the Hebrews, went out of all the other tribes of their day to eliminate nonsense, aka magic. No magical incantations work with Yahweh. He wills. However, their religious philosophy stops right there for a while. That quote seemed to agree with you. Guess not. Anyway, there's no need to bring the bible into this. It's a simple question. If there is anything omnipotence can't do, it isn't omnipotence in the sense of being able to "do anything" as the question has us presume. Calling it God doesn't change that.
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Post by Admin on Dec 10, 2021 7:25:15 GMT
That quote seemed to agree with you. Guess not. Anyway, there's no need to bring the bible into this. It's a simple question. If there is anything omnipotence can't do, it isn't omnipotence in the sense of being able to "do anything" as the question has us presume. Calling it God doesn't change that. I’m still arguing from the determinist playbook in Calvinism because this is the religion board and the person in question is…you know, God. I understood it to mean God creates nonsense too, which I guess he does since he the created positive, negative, and neutral forces. Once again, I argue from different POVs sometimes as a mental exercise for myself to help form new concepts in my interests. Maybe this question is best left in neutral, like a Japanese koan. But here’s another, if God can lift anything he created and he created the whole universe, where does he stand? Nonsense, right? The premise of the question is that God can do anything. Period. Full stop. Given that premise, if the conclusion is that there's something God can't do (such as being unable to lift the rock without compromising his omnipotence), then something went wrong along the way because it directly defies the premise. Maybe the full quote would help you with this nonsense: "His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say, ‘God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,’ you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words, 'God can.' It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God." In other words, omnipotence doesn't mean the ability to do the impossible. If it did, there would be no paradoxes for an omnipotent entity. So the irony of the rock question is that while it intends to create a no-win situation for the conclusion, it actually creates a no-lose situation for the premise.
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Post by Isapop on Dec 10, 2021 15:43:14 GMT
"His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. I'll just toss in this thought, for what (if anything) it's worth: "If God can make a rock that he can't lift, then he's not omnipotent, right?" "Only if he actually makes that rock. As long as he doesn't make that rock, he remains omnipotent."
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Dec 10, 2021 20:03:20 GMT
Nonsense. You're trying to re-write what I'm applauding. If god is omnipotent and omnipresent, then that means he also already knows what we are going to do, and how he's going to react to it. we don't really have free will, if he already knows how it's all going to turn out and what the outcome of it will be. Its like programing a robot to walk only one way, and then call it free will when it walks that way! And worse, we send it to hell for having the audacity to do so! Even though WE PROGRAMED IT TO DO SO! If god exists according to those rules then he's a bi-polar jerk! I am much more calmed by the thought that such a bi-polar jerk with all the power of existence at his finger tips does NOT exist. Because if he did we would all be at the whims of an all powerful mad man! You're refuted statement has been un-futed. "If god is omnipotent and omnipresent, then that means he also already knows what we are going to do, and how he's going to react to it. we don't really have free will, if he already knows how it's all going to turn out and what the outcome of it will be."Surely you aren't saying something that can do anything can't predestine its creations without compromising their free will. Oh, he can do it, but it doesn't make sense, unless god is insane. If you're okay with an insane god then have it.
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Post by Admin on Dec 10, 2021 21:35:56 GMT
"If god is omnipotent and omnipresent, then that means he also already knows what we are going to do, and how he's going to react to it. we don't really have free will, if he already knows how it's all going to turn out and what the outcome of it will be."Surely you aren't saying something that can do anything can't predestine its creations without compromising their free will. Oh, he can do it, but it doesn't make sense, unless god is insane. If you're okay with an insane god then have it. So now he can’t do it while making sense? You continue to ascribe limits to an entity that is presumed to have none.
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Post by Admin on Dec 10, 2021 23:08:18 GMT
"His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. I'll just toss in this thought, for what (if anything) it's worth: "If God can make a rock that he can't lift, then he's not omnipotent, right?" "Only if he actually makes that rock. As long as he doesn't make that rock, he remains omnipotent." Ok, but the question isn't whether or not God can lift a rock that someone else made. Man, the lengths some people will go to to avoid simplicity. Who said that, anyway?
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