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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:22:42 GMT
Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. So can God™ create a rock he cannot lift? The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:23:22 GMT
Just FYI: You're applauding a refuted statement. Presuming the literal definitions of omniscience and omnipotence, there would be no such thing as "no such thing" for such an entity. You may as well as say that if God is omnipresent, he can't be in my closet. The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything.  The common philosophical view is that, besides being unable to change His nature (in which case we can assume that genocide, for instance, is part of God's nature) the omnipotent deity of one's choice can only do what can be done. For example God can only lift a rock that can be lifted, or an omniscient deity can only know that which can be known. If there's something he can't do, he isn't omnipotent.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 6, 2021 22:24:10 GMT
At worst, I can still imagine I can imagine it. Again: see how it works? See above - and back through the rest of this thread where I have spent considerable time patiently explaining the obvious. You are saying, in effect, the same as me: that if I cannot 'really' imagine such-and-such I only think, or imagine I can. That's a QED as at the end of the day it is all imagination. Thank you for playing. I'm sorry you don't understand. And I am sorry you presumably have imagination but do not use it.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:25:00 GMT
I'm sorry you don't understand. And I am sorry you presumably have imagination but do not use it. I imagined a flying spaghetti monster today.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 6, 2021 22:25:11 GMT
So can God™ create a rock he cannot lift? The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. You managed to avoid answering the question, You claim God™ is omnipotent, ie it can do anything, can it create a rock it cannot lift?
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 22:28:57 GMT
The conclusion that there's something God can't do directly defies the premise that he can do anything. You managed to avoid answering the question, You claim God™ is omnipotent, ie it can do anything, can it create a rock it cannot lift? Actually, I did indeed answer the question. I'll rephrase: If God is omnipotent, then he can create a rock so heavy he can't lift it while not compromising his omnipotence.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 6, 2021 22:33:11 GMT
You managed to avoid answering the question, You claim God™ is omnipotent, ie it can do anything, can it create a rock it cannot lift? Actually, I did indeed answer the question. I'll rephrase: If God is omnipotent, then he can create a rock so heavy he can't lift it while not compromising his omnipotence. You realise that is not possible right? If god can do anything but he cannot life the rock, then he cant do anything. I am not sure if you are familiar with the rock argument, it is not a meditation on the power of God, but the meaning of omnipotence. Your definition of omnipotence, based on your answer is that God™ can do anything, in this instance create a rock he cannot lift and then (because if he could not lift it he would not be omnipotent) also lift it. So your definition of omnipotence when applied to God™ is "Can do anything, including breaking natural laws and universal constants. How do you think this impacts on gods™ perfection?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 6, 2021 22:34:17 GMT
The common philosophical view is that, besides being unable to change His nature (in which case we can assume that genocide, for instance, is part of God's nature) the omnipotent deity of one's choice can only do what can be done. For example God can only lift a rock that can be lifted, or an omniscient deity can only know that which can be known. If there's something he can't do, he isn't omnipotent. The contradiction need only worry those who believe in such a being. The rest of us, not being lumbered with such arcane stuff, see the illogicality of necessarily having the inscrutable do the impossible, and just move on. (Incidentally Christians who are kept up at night worrying about where the logic of such literalism leads are recommended to do a Google for the theological concept of a 'Maximal God'. EG readingreligion.org/books/maximal-god
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Dec 6, 2021 22:42:25 GMT
And I am sorry you presumably have imagination but do not use it. I imagined a flying spaghetti monster today. That would be another QED. The FSM 'cannot really' exist and yet you say you imagined it. Blind people 'cannot really' think of a colour and yet...
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Post by gadreel on Dec 6, 2021 22:59:08 GMT
If there's something he can't do, he isn't omnipotent. The contradiction need only worry those who believe in such a being. The rest of us, not being lumbered with such arcane stuff, see the illogicality of necessarily having the inscrutable do the impossible, and just move on. (Incidentally Christians who are kept up at night worrying about where the logic of such literalism leads are recommended to do a Google for the theological concept of a 'Maximal God'. EG readingreligion.org/books/maximal-god There is also the admonition that God™ is omnipotent, but cannot break the laws of reality. SO he can create the rock, but he cant lift it because it's parameters are that it cannot be lifted by him and this does not break the logic of the argument
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 23:20:35 GMT
Actually, I did indeed answer the question. I'll rephrase: If God is omnipotent, then he can create a rock so heavy he can't lift it while not compromising his omnipotence. You realise that is not possible right? If god can do anything but he cannot life the rock, then he cant do anything. I am not sure if you are familiar with the rock argument, it is not a meditation on the power of God, but the meaning of omnipotence. Your definition of omnipotence, based on your answer is that God™ can do anything, in this instance create a rock he cannot lift and then (because if he could not lift it he would not be omnipotent) also lift it. So your definition of omnipotence when applied to God™ is "Can do anything, including breaking natural laws and universal constants. How do you think this impacts on gods™ perfection? It's neither my claim nor my definition. It's just the premise. If God can do anything (that's the premise), then the answer to any question that begins with "Can God..." is yes, no matter how impossible it may seem to you. It's illogical to conclude that something that is unlimited has limits.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 23:21:55 GMT
If there's something he can't do, he isn't omnipotent. The contradiction need only worry those who believe in such a being. The rest of us, not being lumbered with such arcane stuff, see the illogicality of necessarily having the inscrutable do the impossible, and just move on. (Incidentally Christians who are kept up at night worrying about where the logic of such literalism leads are recommended to do a Google for the theological concept of a 'Maximal God'. EG readingreligion.org/books/maximal-god I don't worry about it, but thanks for the recommendation.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 23:23:37 GMT
I imagined a flying spaghetti monster today. That would be another QED. The FSM 'cannot really' exist and yet you say you imagined it. Blind people 'cannot really' think of a colour and yet... I am familiar with spaghetti and wings and fangs and hair and plates. Not terribly difficult to put them together in my mind, but I reckon it would be impossible if I had no prior knowledge of any of those things.
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Post by Admin on Dec 6, 2021 23:24:01 GMT
The contradiction need only worry those who believe in such a being. The rest of us, not being lumbered with such arcane stuff, see the illogicality of necessarily having the inscrutable do the impossible, and just move on. (Incidentally Christians who are kept up at night worrying about where the logic of such literalism leads are recommended to do a Google for the theological concept of a 'Maximal God'. EG readingreligion.org/books/maximal-god There is also the admonition that God™ is omnipotent, but cannot break the laws of reality. SO he can create the rock, but he cant lift it because it's parameters are that it cannot be lifted by him and this does not break the logic of the argument It breaks the premise.
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Post by Dirty Santa PaulsLaugh on Dec 7, 2021 0:00:28 GMT
The contradiction need only worry those who believe in such a being. The rest of us, not being lumbered with such arcane stuff, see the illogicality of necessarily having the inscrutable do the impossible, and just move on. (Incidentally Christians who are kept up at night worrying about where the logic of such literalism leads are recommended to do a Google for the theological concept of a 'Maximal God'. EG readingreligion.org/books/maximal-god There is also the admonition that God™ is omnipotent, but cannot break the laws of reality. SO he can create the rock, but he cant lift it because it's parameters are that it cannot be lifted by him and this does not break the logic of the argument Can he pick up the Universe TM?
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Post by gadreel on Dec 7, 2021 17:18:11 GMT
You realise that is not possible right? If god can do anything but he cannot life the rock, then he cant do anything. I am not sure if you are familiar with the rock argument, it is not a meditation on the power of God, but the meaning of omnipotence. Your definition of omnipotence, based on your answer is that God™ can do anything, in this instance create a rock he cannot lift and then (because if he could not lift it he would not be omnipotent) also lift it. So your definition of omnipotence when applied to God™ is "Can do anything, including breaking natural laws and universal constants. How do you think this impacts on gods™ perfection? It's neither my claim nor my definition. It's just the premise. If God can do anything (that's the premise), then the answer to any question that begins with "Can God..." is yes, no matter how impossible it may seem to you. It's illogical to conclude that something that is unlimited has limits. You should read more about the rock argument, it's very purpose is a meditation on the definition of omnipotence, of which you seem to be ignoring is not always "God™ can do anything". There are many who would say that the integrity of both a perfect being and the basis of creation are flawed if God™ is capable of doing anything, in fact if God™ is omnipotent like that, why can't is just wipe out disease?
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Post by gadreel on Dec 7, 2021 17:18:41 GMT
There is also the admonition that God™ is omnipotent, but cannot break the laws of reality. SO he can create the rock, but he cant lift it because it's parameters are that it cannot be lifted by him and this does not break the logic of the argument It breaks the premise. It breaks YOUR premise.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 7, 2021 17:20:43 GMT
There is also the admonition that God™ is omnipotent, but cannot break the laws of reality. SO he can create the rock, but he cant lift it because it's parameters are that it cannot be lifted by him and this does not break the logic of the argument Can he pick up the Universe TM?
It depends on your definition, if God™ can do anything without limit then yes it can pick up the universe, there are a number of people who (in some form or another) equate the universe as being fundamentally part of God™ and so God™ being able to pick it up is logically impossible.
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Post by Admin on Dec 7, 2021 20:48:58 GMT
It's neither my claim nor my definition. It's just the premise. If God can do anything (that's the premise), then the answer to any question that begins with "Can God..." is yes, no matter how impossible it may seem to you. It's illogical to conclude that something that is unlimited has limits. You should read more about the rock argument, it's very purpose is a meditation on the definition of omnipotence, of which you seem to be ignoring is not always "God™ can do anything". There are many who would say that the integrity of both a perfect being and the basis of creation are flawed if God™ is capable of doing anything, in fact if God™ is omnipotent like that, why can't is just wipe out disease? As flattering as that is, I can't take credit for THE premise of THE rock argument that YOU presented in this thread. "If God can do anything, can he..." Yes.
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Post by gadreel on Dec 7, 2021 22:23:35 GMT
You should read more about the rock argument, it's very purpose is a meditation on the definition of omnipotence, of which you seem to be ignoring is not always "God™ can do anything". There are many who would say that the integrity of both a perfect being and the basis of creation are flawed if God™ is capable of doing anything, in fact if God™ is omnipotent like that, why can't is just wipe out disease? As flattering as that is, I can't take credit for THE premise of THE rock argument that YOU presented in this thread. "If God can do anything, can he..." Yes. As I say, you should read the rock argument, you are missing a fundamental truth of it.
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