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Post by goz on Jul 23, 2021 21:36:26 GMT
That is what I am thinking and I know the same can be said for every other sense as well, but the sound one seems a bit different to me for some reason. Birds can see different colors than we do, because they can perceive parts of the UV spectrum that are invisible to us. I think that's pretty incredible. Most animals have a far superior sense of smell than humans, and that's even how they identify their young. Many animals can hear sounds outside the range of human hearing. Our perception is really quite limited. I find it humbling and fascinating to ponder what we might be missing, simply because we don't have the appropriate hardware to observe it. Agreed. ...and yet it 'exists' even though we, as humans can't perceive it. To me this whole argument about the tree falling in the forest is a very humancentric and quite a silly one. A lot actually happens that we, as humans have no idea about.
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Post by mystery on Jul 23, 2021 22:21:44 GMT
Birds can see different colors than we do, because they can perceive parts of the UV spectrum that are invisible to us. I think that's pretty incredible. Most animals have a far superior sense of smell than humans, and that's even how they identify their young. Many animals can hear sounds outside the range of human hearing. Our perception is really quite limited. I find it humbling and fascinating to ponder what we might be missing, simply because we don't have the appropriate hardware to observe it. Agreed. ...and yet it 'exists' even though we, as humans can't perceive it. To me this whole argument about the tree falling in the forest is a very humancentric and quite a silly one. A lot actually happens that we, as humans have no idea about. I don't think it's silly. The purpose of the question is to help us look at things from a slightly different perspective. The initial reaction most people have is that, yes, the tree makes noise when it falls, because that seems obvious. But sound waves are merely vibrating air molecules. What we perceive as "sound" is the brain's interpretation of the effect those vibrations have on our ear drums. Do the sound waves make any noise, in and of themselves, or is the noise only in the mind of the observer? I think that's the core of the question.
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Post by goz on Jul 23, 2021 23:48:57 GMT
Agreed. ...and yet it 'exists' even though we, as humans can't perceive it. To me this whole argument about the tree falling in the forest is a very humancentric and quite a silly one. A lot actually happens that we, as humans have no idea about. I don't think it's silly. The purpose of the question is to help us look at things from a slightly different perspective. The initial reaction most people have is that, yes, the tree makes noise when it falls, because that seems obvious. But sound waves are merely vibrating air molecules. What we perceive as "sound" is the brain's interpretation of the effect those vibrations have on our ear drums. Do the sound waves make any noise, in and of themselves, or is the noise only in the mind of the observer? I think that's the core of the question. Why do you ignore physical evidence and logic? If there was a tree standing in a forest one second and then there is a tree lying on the forest floor WTF must have happened? The fact that there was no human there to heard sound or noise or whatever you want to call it, doesn't affect the fact that a tree fell according to the evidence.
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Post by mystery on Jul 24, 2021 0:47:34 GMT
I don't think it's silly. The purpose of the question is to help us look at things from a slightly different perspective. The initial reaction most people have is that, yes, the tree makes noise when it falls, because that seems obvious. But sound waves are merely vibrating air molecules. What we perceive as "sound" is the brain's interpretation of the effect those vibrations have on our ear drums. Do the sound waves make any noise, in and of themselves, or is the noise only in the mind of the observer? I think that's the core of the question. Are noise and sound the same thing? Yup.
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Post by mystery on Jul 24, 2021 0:55:35 GMT
I don't think it's silly. The purpose of the question is to help us look at things from a slightly different perspective. The initial reaction most people have is that, yes, the tree makes noise when it falls, because that seems obvious. But sound waves are merely vibrating air molecules. What we perceive as "sound" is the brain's interpretation of the effect those vibrations have on our ear drums. Do the sound waves make any noise, in and of themselves, or is the noise only in the mind of the observer? I think that's the core of the question. Why do you ignore physical evidence and logic? If there was a tree standing in a forest one second and then there is a tree lying on the forest floor WTF must have happened? The fact that there was no human there to heard sound or noise or whatever you want to call it, doesn't affect the fact that a tree fell according to the evidence. You're still missing the point. Yes, the tree fell. Yes, are molecules vibrated when the tree fell. But at what point is the sound produced? Is it when the tree falls, or is it when those vibrating air molecules are interpreted by the observer? We've all experienced loud music that you can physically feel, or a boom of thunder loud enough to make the windows shake. The essential nature of sound waves is simply motion. It's the movement of air molecules. Even deaf people can feel sound waves if they're strong enough, because they are vibrations, something physical and tactile. But the sounds we hear are not merely vibrations. It's what happens when the kinetic movement of the air molecules is translated into electrical impulses by the nervous system. If you define sound as vibrating air molecules, then the answer to the question in the OP is yes. If you define sound as the translation of kinetic energy into electrical impulses, then the answer is no. This discussion is rather like debating when a cake is made. Is it when you mix the batter, or is it when you put it in the oven and bake it? It's open to interpretation.
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Post by goz on Jul 24, 2021 1:58:17 GMT
Why do you ignore physical evidence and logic? If there was a tree standing in a forest one second and then there is a tree lying on the forest floor WTF must have happened? The fact that there was no human there to heard sound or noise or whatever you want to call it, doesn't affect the fact that a tree fell according to the evidence. You're still missing the point. Yes, the tree fell. Yes, are molecules vibrated when the tree fell. But at what point is the sound produced? Is it when the tree falls, or is it when those vibrating air molecules are interpreted by the observer? We've all experienced loud music that you can physically feel, or a boom of thunder loud enough to make the windows shake. The essential nature of sound waves is simply motion. It's the movement of air molecules. Even deaf people can feel sound waves if they're strong enough, because they are vibrations, something physical and tactile. But the sounds we hear are not merely vibrations. It's what happens when the kinetic movement of the air molecules is translated into electrical impulses by the nervous system. If you define sound as vibrating air molecules, then the answer to the question in the OP is yes. If you define sound as the translation of kinetic energy into electrical impulses, then the answer is no. This discussion is rather like debating when a cake is made. Is it when you mix the batter, or is it when you put it in the oven and bake it? It's open to interpretation. No YOU are missing the point. A tree falling has nothing to do with what sound it makes. it is either upright on lying on the ground. There is physical evidence.
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Post by mystery on Jul 24, 2021 2:20:26 GMT
You're still missing the point. Yes, the tree fell. Yes, are molecules vibrated when the tree fell. But at what point is the sound produced? Is it when the tree falls, or is it when those vibrating air molecules are interpreted by the observer? We've all experienced loud music that you can physically feel, or a boom of thunder loud enough to make the windows shake. The essential nature of sound waves is simply motion. It's the movement of air molecules. Even deaf people can feel sound waves if they're strong enough, because they are vibrations, something physical and tactile. But the sounds we hear are not merely vibrations. It's what happens when the kinetic movement of the air molecules is translated into electrical impulses by the nervous system. If you define sound as vibrating air molecules, then the answer to the question in the OP is yes. If you define sound as the translation of kinetic energy into electrical impulses, then the answer is no. This discussion is rather like debating when a cake is made. Is it when you mix the batter, or is it when you put it in the oven and bake it? It's open to interpretation. No YOU are missing the point. A tree falling has nothing to do with what sound it makes. it is either upright on lying on the ground. There is physical evidence. Are you debating whether or not the tree fell? The question in the OP is whether the falling tree made a sound if no one was around to hear it. Maybe that's where we're having a misunderstanding.
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Post by mystery on Jul 24, 2021 2:23:37 GMT
Because I said so? I used noise in place of sound because I used the term "sound waves" in the same sentence, and I thought it was a bit confusing. I was just using the terms interchangeably. How would you differentiate them?
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Post by mystery on Jul 24, 2021 2:50:58 GMT
Because I said so? I used noise in place of sound because I used the term "sound waves" in the same sentence, and I thought it was a bit confusing. I was just using the terms interchangeably. How would you differentiate them? Noise does not need to be acoustical, while the tree fall theory supposes without an ear, no sound can be heard. But the tree still makes noise. Noise is not acoustic? Can you explain that?
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Post by mystery on Jul 24, 2021 12:17:32 GMT
So, you're equating noise with sound waves? The reason we can't hear the sound of the sun is because space is a vacuum, and sound waves can't travel through a vacuum. They need some physical substance to move through, like air, water, etc. Sound waves are the vibration of molecules. It's kinetic motion, whether that's from the explosions on the sun, or the tree falling in the woods. The physics involved is all the same. It sounds like scientists recorded the vibrations within the sun's atmosphere in the videos you linked to. Those vibrations can't reach earth, because there is no material in space for the sound waves to vibrate. Make sense?
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Post by mystery on Jul 24, 2021 21:13:07 GMT
So, you're equating noise with sound waves? The reason we can't hear the sound of the sun is because space is a vacuum, and sound waves can't travel through a vacuum. They need some physical substance to move through, like air, water, etc. Sound waves are the vibration of molecules. It's kinetic motion, whether that's from the explosions on the sun, or the tree falling in the woods. The physics involved is all the same. It sounds like scientists recorded the vibrations within the sun's atmosphere in the videos you linked to. Those vibrations can't reach earth, because there is no material in space for the sound waves to vibrate. Make sense? And yet you just heard the Sun. A signal travels through space that is “heard” by the instrumentation. Not sound waves for sure, but the noise is there. I'm afraid not. From the National Science Foundation website: Sound is motion. There is nothing to vibrate in space, so sound waves can't travel through space. The scientists didn't simply hit record. The sound was interpreted from visible vibrations on the surface of the sun, and translated into sound waves after the fact. It's actually crazy what they can extrapolate from visual vibrations. A while back, I heard on NPR that before the raid to kill Bin Laden, they knew exactly how many people were in the house by analyzing the vibrations in the glass of the windows. The different voices would make the glass vibrate a different frequencies. That kind of freaked me out, honestly.
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Post by mystery on Jul 24, 2021 21:49:15 GMT
I'm afraid not. From the National Science Foundation website: Sound is motion. There is nothing to vibrate in space, so sound waves can't travel through space. The scientists didn't simply hit record. The sound was interpreted from visible vibrations on the surface of the sun, and translated into sound waves after the fact. It's actually crazy what they can extrapolate from visual vibrations. A while back, I heard on NPR that before the raid to kill Bin Laden, they knew exactly how many people were in the house by analyzing the vibrations in the glass of the windows. The different voices would make the glass vibrate a different frequencies. That kind of freaked me out, honestly. I guess it’s impossible now to ponder if the trees in the forest can hear its brethren collapse. And sound is also information. The information of the tree falling is still recorded or “heard.” If you consider vibration to be information, then I agree. I don't mean to bum you out. I'm one of the unusual people who can be both deeply spiritual and a huge science nerd. I've always enjoyed physics. I find physics far more fascinating than biology, because it's basically trying to figure out how the universe works. Cool stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2021 11:25:04 GMT
If a man is both prisoner and his own prison guard, and he forgets who he is..is he free or a captive still?
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Post by Stammerhead on Jul 26, 2021 12:36:32 GMT
I think an unpopular tree fell down.
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