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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 22, 2021 20:29:19 GMT
For instance, do you consider calling the sky blue an "objective truth"? To a lot of people the answer would be yes, but what if you ask a color blind person? They would describe it as grey, are they "objectively incorrect" or just seeing it from a different perspective? What if the human body evolved differently to the point where most people were color blind? Would calling the sky grey suddenly be "objective truth"? And before anyone asks, no I'm not a "post modernist" (I actually dunno very much about that stuff)
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jul 22, 2021 21:54:53 GMT
I do believe in objective truths.
Colours aren't one of them (unless you're going for a scientific definition of a colour (e.g. defining by it's wavelength or (I guess) by something like it's Pantone number - they're absolute). I know this for a fact because I will call something "green" and my wife will go into great detail about how it's not green but "teal" or "sage" (or some other made up colour that I've never heard of before) and she'll be very insistent about it. And I've learned that there's no way I can win that argument.
So colours are generally not an objective truth.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jul 22, 2021 22:09:04 GMT
Yes because there ar things that are objective truths.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2021 17:17:47 GMT
I consider math problems to be an objective truth like 1 + 1 = 2 since there is no other correct answer. Opinions, theories, or perspectives are all subjective.
The sky could also be black if you were to look at it during the night in its pure state when the sun isn’t out. So saying it’s blue isn’t technically correct or the only answer anyway. I don’t consider color objective just because more than one color is usually mixed together and people have different judgments which one stands out more. It makes it difficult to say which perspective is the correct one when it comes to color. We view color based on majority agreement of how’s its perceived but I wouldn’t call that objective truth.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jul 25, 2021 15:34:48 GMT
Yes.
We're all experiencing Consciousness right now, that's an objective truth.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 26, 2021 6:30:42 GMT
I do believe in objective truths. Colours aren't one of them (unless you're going for a scientific definition of a colour (e.g. defining by it's wavelength or (I guess) by something like it's Pantone number - they're absolute). I know this for a fact because I will call something "green" and my wife will go into great detail about how it's not green but "teal" or "sage" (or some other made up colour that I've never heard of before) and she'll be very insistent about it. And I've learned that there's no way I can win that argument. So colours are generally not an objective truth. I am shocked but pleased to see that someone else on this board knows what the Pantone system is. Is your wife an artist?
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jul 26, 2021 7:44:31 GMT
I do believe in objective truths. Colours aren't one of them (unless you're going for a scientific definition of a colour (e.g. defining by it's wavelength or (I guess) by something like it's Pantone number - they're absolute). I know this for a fact because I will call something "green" and my wife will go into great detail about how it's not green but "teal" or "sage" (or some other made up colour that I've never heard of before) and she'll be very insistent about it. And I've learned that there's no way I can win that argument. So colours are generally not an objective truth. I am shocked but pleased to see that someone else on this board knows what the Pantone system is. Is your wife an artist? No, she's an antique dealer. But she is very "arty". For my sins when I left uni I decided I wanted to be a desktop publisher. I already knew how to use all the software. And that's where I came across Pantones. And I was perfectly good with all the technology. But terribly at the creativity/arty side of it...
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 26, 2021 18:43:24 GMT
I am shocked but pleased to see that someone else on this board knows what the Pantone system is. Is your wife an artist? No, she's an antique dealer. But she is very "arty". For my sins when I left uni I decided I wanted to be a desktop publisher. I already knew how to use all the software. And that's where I came across Pantones. And I was perfectly good with all the technology. But terribly at the creativity/arty side of it... I am just the opposite; I was matching designer gouache to Pantone numbers to actually paint licensed characters, like Rainbow Brite and Winnie the Pooh, back before computers had even gotten started. But then, once they did, I couldn't make the leap to the technology, so I had to get a non-tech day job to make ends meet. I still am a very s l o w learner, but have sort of figured out Publisher, enough to fix errors in the newspaper I proofread. Someday I may be able to return to art as a fine artist, at least as a part-time thing.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jul 26, 2021 20:32:46 GMT
No, she's an antique dealer. But she is very "arty". For my sins when I left uni I decided I wanted to be a desktop publisher. I already knew how to use all the software. And that's where I came across Pantones. And I was perfectly good with all the technology. But terribly at the creativity/arty side of it... I am just the opposite; I was matching designer gouache to Pantone numbers to actually paint licensed characters, like Rainbow Brite and Winnie the Pooh, back before computers had even gotten started. But then, once they did, I couldn't make the leap to the technology, so I had to get a non-tech day job to make ends meet. I still am a very s l o w learner, but have sort of figured out Publisher, enough to fix errors in the newspaper I proofread. Someday I may be able to return to art as a fine artist, at least as a part-time thing. Back (in the brief period) when I was trying to do it, it was all Quark Xpress, Photoshop and Illustrator. I've not come across Publisher... But I recognised my strengths and I now write code! So I have really embraced technology and given up any pretence of being arty. The wife did study History of Art though and occasionally has artistic flourishes and gets all "creative" on me. She definitely does not "do technology" in any way! We are very much "chalk and cheese".
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 26, 2021 21:16:53 GMT
I am just the opposite; I was matching designer gouache to Pantone numbers to actually paint licensed characters, like Rainbow Brite and Winnie the Pooh, back before computers had even gotten started. But then, once they did, I couldn't make the leap to the technology, so I had to get a non-tech day job to make ends meet. I still am a very s l o w learner, but have sort of figured out Publisher, enough to fix errors in the newspaper I proofread. Someday I may be able to return to art as a fine artist, at least as a part-time thing. Back (in the brief period) when I was trying to do it, it was all Quark Xpress, Photoshop and Illustrator. I've not come across Publisher... But I recognised my strengths and I now write code! So I have really embraced technology and given up any pretence of being arty. The wife did study History of Art though and occasionally has artistic flourishes and gets all "creative" on me. She definitely does not "do technology" in any way! We are very much "chalk and cheese". Ah, you two sound like me and my late husband - he was the tech nerd, going back to when computers occupied entire rooms. He had a hard time, dumbing down enough to teach me how to pay the bills online, but he very much appreciated my arty side, and encouraged me to keep going. He did, however, predict the future, when all commercial artwork would go to computers. A few years after his passing, Hallmark, the social expression company, informed all artists that they had one year to learn how to do what they did on computer. Most of the great, older artists took early retirement, and nowadays, the only hand-painted artwork on a Hallmark card is that of Marjolein Bastin, a well-known nature artist who works under contract. Another commercial illustrator, a friend and mentor of mine, made the leap to fine art and has done well (hasn't starved yet, lol) But I miss the days of watercolor washes, hand-drawing figures in action, and the fun of seeing one's work published in a children's book. I am okay, being an analog watch in a digital world, but do miss "the good, old days". I do create fiber art, or art quilting, which satisfies my hands-on self, but there is no money in it, just enjoyment of creating a piece of art. I can relate to your wife - I have long been a buyer of antiques!
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Post by rizdek on Jul 26, 2021 21:57:13 GMT
I think there is objective truth. Of course getting everyone to agree on what things/bits of informatono are objectively true might be difficult. Your example of color is a good case of people not agreeing on whether color is part of objective truth. But that's the epistemology of objective truth...determining and agreeing on what things are objectively true vs what I consider the ontology of objective truth... IE I believe that the universe supports the existence of objective truth. I believe that there is objective truth, that there are things that are true, independent of what individuals think.
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Post by mystery on Jul 30, 2021 12:18:35 GMT
Of the examples given in the OP, I would say no, those are not objective truths. This goes back to the tree falling in the woods thread, because mortal perceptions of the physical world are merely translations of external stimuli into electrical impulses by the nervous system, and that experience varies by individual and by species. Beauty (and everything else) is all in the eye and the brain of the beholder. Are there objective truths? I think I'm going to say no. Most truths actually seem to be paradoxes... but that's just my perception.
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Post by Admin on Jul 30, 2021 21:19:04 GMT
I think most believers would say that God (or Allah or whatever) is the only absolute.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 30, 2021 21:44:37 GMT
I think most believers would say that God (or Allah or whatever) is the only absolute. Since you have mentioned Allah, I am going to start a new thread about the PBS documentary about Muhammed, the legacy of the prophet.
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Post by Admin on Jul 30, 2021 21:47:49 GMT
I think most believers would say that God (or Allah or whatever) is the only absolute. Since you have mentioned Allah, I am going to start a new thread about the PBS documentary about Muhammed, the legacy of the prophet. Hey, they can't do that. Can they? Doesn't seem so long ago that people were being shot because of cartoons...
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 30, 2021 21:55:46 GMT
Since you have mentioned Allah, I am going to start a new thread about the PBS documentary about Muhammed, the legacy of the prophet. Hey, they can't do that. Can they? Doesn't seem so long ago that people were being shot because of cartoons... Actually, they did, with images of other people, but not of him, only words. That was pivotal, I think. There were plenty of illustrations of ancient art from the era, and video of modern day scholars, but no image of him.
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Post by Admin on Jul 30, 2021 22:31:05 GMT
Hey, they can't do that. Can they? Doesn't seem so long ago that people were being shot because of cartoons... Actually, they did, with images of other people, but not of him, only words. That was pivotal, I think. There were plenty of illustrations of ancient art from the era, and video of modern day scholars, but no image of him. Are we forbidden to draw an image of him because he has no image?
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Post by Admin on Jul 31, 2021 0:58:17 GMT
Are we forbidden to draw an image of him because he has no image? No. Ancient Middle Eastern cultures often practiced iconoclasm. And if you'll recall, the Hebrews, as well as the modern Jews have the same proscription against imagery. Like, you never see an image of God within a religious Jewish setting. It is forbidden to do so and some Christians do like it either. About the same time as Islam was forming, Christianity experienced a spurt of iconoclasm occurred during the Byzantine Empire. However, other non-Semitic Muslims have depicted Mohammad. I daresay the proscription against Mohammad imagery springs from ancient the Near East custom rather than a specific religion. And Islam is a fundamentalist religion, so they think anything they believe is God's will and should be forced on everyone. Doesn't seem like it could be very accurate in any case. After all, if one imagines a physical image of God, one is probably wrong. lol. Thanks.
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Post by mystery on Jul 31, 2021 1:01:09 GMT
When I was in India, I talked to a number of Muslims who disparaged the Hindus for idolatry, and they said that was why they don't worship images of Mohammed. I have to admit, I strongly prefer Islamic art to Hindu art. Hinduism is a fascinating religion, but Islamic art and architecture has an elegance and timeless that I find absolutely stunning. Some religious iconography in other religions can be a little over the top.
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Post by Admin on Jul 31, 2021 1:07:29 GMT
When I was in India, I talked to a number of Muslims who disparaged the Hindus for idolatry, and they said that was why they don't worship images of Mohammed. I have to admit, I strongly prefer Islamic art to Hindu art. Hinduism is a fascinating religion, but Islamic art and architecture has an elegance and timeless that I find absolutely stunning. Some religious iconography in other religions can be a little over the top. I don't think it has as much to do with worshiping the images as it does the mere existence of the images themselves. Nobody got shot because they were kneeling before a cartoon.
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