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Post by shannondegroot on Jul 24, 2021 19:06:07 GMT
possibly with their brains/selves fighting off the temptation to believe in superstitions or taking things as signs all around them as they are encountered throughout their daily lives? Or maybe their brains are wired to immediately write these things off as coincidences and bad habits that need to be shaken?
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Jul 24, 2021 23:23:55 GMT
I can't speak for all atheists, but personally I just put random events down to being "random events". I don't try to find any hidden/deeper meaning to them.
I am (however) a data analyst and a statistician. So if I notice a recurring pattern in events then I might look for any correlation and an underlying cause if I think it's significant.
A real one. Not magic. Or fairies. Or an invisible sky daddy.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jul 24, 2021 23:26:01 GMT
No
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jul 25, 2021 15:37:10 GMT
No more than anyone else.
Believing in no Gods takes as much faith as believing in a God or Gods.
One path is just more pessimistic and close-minded.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 25, 2021 16:51:29 GMT
No
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Post by Stammerhead on Jul 25, 2021 17:56:26 GMT
I’ll put this on the agenda for our next atheist support group annual meeting and will get get back to you after we have formulated the appropriate answer.
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Post by theauxphou on Jul 26, 2021 11:48:30 GMT
I think all of them do. Checkmate, atheists!
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Post by Stammerhead on Jul 26, 2021 12:34:21 GMT
No more than anyone else. Believing in no Gods takes as much faith as believing in a God or Gods. One path is just more pessimistic and close-minded. Yeah, that other path is usually the wrong path.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jul 26, 2021 17:28:43 GMT
I think all of them do. Checkmate, atheists! Game set match!!
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jul 26, 2021 17:31:59 GMT
No more than anyone else. Believing in no Gods takes as much faith as believing in a God or Gods. One path is just more pessimistic and close-minded. Yeah, that other path is usually the wrong path. Atheism is as rigid as any fundamentalism. You swap out metaphysical Gods for the God of Materialism, and worship fame and possessions instead of what inspires awe.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 26, 2021 17:41:33 GMT
Yeah, that other path is usually the wrong path. Atheism is as rigid as any fundamentalism. You swap out metaphysical Gods for the God of Materialism, and worship fame and possessions instead of what inspires awe. "Atheism is as rigid as any fundamentalism." Not really because it's not a belief system, it's a rejection of a belief system. That's like saying unemployment is a rigid as any job. A bit of a false equivalency going on. "You swap out metaphysical Gods for the God of Materialism" What's wrong with materialism? (I'm assuming you mean in the physical/metaphysical sense and not the consumerism one). You realize great advancements in science were (and still are) typically made by people who rejected supernatural explanations for the universe and look for material/natural explanations, right? "and worship fame and possessions instead of what inspires awe." I'm not sure what you mean by that. I personally don't really care about fame and in fact would prefer not to be famous (I'm rather private, introverted person). And can possessions not inspire "awe"? If I owned a luxorious mansion or Ferrari would that not inspire awe in many people? Many great artworks/architecture like the Mona Lisa, Sistine Chapel and the Great Pyramids are essentially possession as well, so again I'm not really sure what you mean by this.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jul 26, 2021 17:47:39 GMT
Atheism is as rigid as any fundamentalism. You swap out metaphysical Gods for the God of Materialism, and worship fame and possessions instead of what inspires awe. "You swap out metaphysical Gods for the God of Materialism" What's wrong with materialism? (I'm assuming you mean in the physical/metaphysical sense and the consumer one). "and worship fame and possessions instead of what inspires awe." I'm not sure what you mean by that. I personally don't really care about fame (I'm rather private, introverted person). And can possesions not inspire "awe"? If I owned a luxorious mansion or Ferrari would that not inspire awe. It leads to suffering because everything material you attempt to grasp onto, you will inevitably lose. You can see how much contentment and happiness people get from having Materialism as their fundamental underlying philosophical outlook.. Anxiety and depression are normalized. You might not care about fame and material possessions, but they are what has replaced any mysterious Gods in the average North Americans life. Maybe a cathedral or wonderfully built historical building can inspire some awe in me (and as you say art and music), but when I think of awe of think of things like the mystery of Consciousness, the Universe, quantum physics and stuff like that. (I wouldn't care about a Ferrari or fancy watch, those are just status symbols).
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 26, 2021 17:57:17 GMT
"You swap out metaphysical Gods for the God of Materialism" What's wrong with materialism? (I'm assuming you mean in the physical/metaphysical sense and the consumer one). "and worship fame and possessions instead of what inspires awe." I'm not sure what you mean by that. I personally don't really care about fame (I'm rather private, introverted person). And can possesions not inspire "awe"? If I owned a luxorious mansion or Ferrari would that not inspire awe. It leads to suffering because everything material you attempt to grasp onto, you will inevitably lose. You can see how much contentment and happiness people get from having Materialism as their fundamental underlying philosophical outlook.. Anxiety and depression are normalized. You might not care about fame and material possessions, but they are what has replaced any mysterious Gods in the average North Americans life. Maybe a cathedral or wonderfully built historical building can inspire some awe in me (and as you say art and music), but when I think of awe of think of things like the mystery of Consciousness, the Universe, quantum physics and stuff like that. "It leads to suffering because everything material you attempt to grasp onto, you will inevitably lose." I dunno what you mean by that, give examples. "You can see how much contentment and happiness people get from having Materialism as their fundamental underlying philosophical outlook.. Anxiety and depression are normalized." Do you have any data/studies to back that up? You realize some of the happiest countries are ones with high irreligiosity/atheist rates and by proxy more likely to embrace materialism (Norway, Sweden, Finland all have higher happiness indexes that the rest of the world despite embracing "materialism") "You might not care about fame and material possessions, but they are what has replaced any mysterious Gods in the average North Americans life. " Again do you have any data/studies to back that up? In my country devout Christians overwhelmingly tend to vote for right wing/libertarian economic policies (ie policies that benefit corporations, greedy CEOs, crass consumerism, etc) "Maybe a cathedral or wonderfully built historical building can inspire some awe in me (and as you say art and music), but when I think of awe of think of things like the mystery of Consciousness, the Universe, quantum physics and stuff like that." So then you agree certain material possessions can cause "awe"?
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jul 26, 2021 18:16:29 GMT
It leads to suffering because everything material you attempt to grasp onto, you will inevitably lose. You can see how much contentment and happiness people get from having Materialism as their fundamental underlying philosophical outlook.. Anxiety and depression are normalized. You might not care about fame and material possessions, but they are what has replaced any mysterious Gods in the average North Americans life. Maybe a cathedral or wonderfully built historical building can inspire some awe in me (and as you say art and music), but when I think of awe of think of things like the mystery of Consciousness, the Universe, quantum physics and stuff like that. "It leads to suffering because everything material you attempt to grasp onto, you will inevitably lose." I dunno what you mean by that, give examples."You can see how much contentment and happiness people get from having Materialism as their fundamental underlying philosophical outlook.. Anxiety and depression are normalized." Do you have any data/studies to back that up? You realize some of the happiest countries are ones with high irreligiosity/atheist rates and by proxy more likely to embrace materialism (Norway, Sweden, Finland all have higher happiness indexes that the rest of the world despite embracing "materialism") "You might not care about fame and material possessions, but they are what has replaced any mysterious Gods in the average North Americans life. " Again do you have any data/studies to back that up? In my country devout Christians overwhelmingly tend to vote for right wing/libertarian economic policies (ie policies that benefit corporations, greedy CEOs, crass consumerism, etc) "Maybe a cathedral or wonderfully built historical building can inspire some awe in me (and as you say art and music), but when I think of awe of think of things like the mystery of Consciousness, the Universe, quantum physics and stuff like that." So then you agree material possession can cause "awe"? Everything you own, every person you love, you lose when you die. Everything material will fall from your grasp. You own nothing, you only borrow. You need examples? Name any possession you covet or any person you love. If you read the basic life story of Gautama Buddha, that would explain it best. I don't care about who labels themselves Christians, it doesn't mean they're not going to be materialists too. You don't see too many 'straw hat monks' these days. And yes, I think many paintings and pieces of music can definitely inspire awe, but for me that's because they have some sort of hint of the divine in them. An ancient cathedral or temple or work of Nature will likely inspire more awe than a shopping mall, no matter how well designed the shopping mall. If someone would buy the Mona Lisa and treat it just as a private possession, locked away where only they could see it, it would be in a way sacrilegious. However, even the rich person who bought it would be kidding themselves if they imagined death wasn't going to easily take it away from them... and hence they're only borrowing it for a time.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jul 26, 2021 18:31:43 GMT
"It leads to suffering because everything material you attempt to grasp onto, you will inevitably lose." I dunno what you mean by that, give examples."You can see how much contentment and happiness people get from having Materialism as their fundamental underlying philosophical outlook.. Anxiety and depression are normalized." Do you have any data/studies to back that up? You realize some of the happiest countries are ones with high irreligiosity/atheist rates and by proxy more likely to embrace materialism (Norway, Sweden, Finland all have higher happiness indexes that the rest of the world despite embracing "materialism") "You might not care about fame and material possessions, but they are what has replaced any mysterious Gods in the average North Americans life. " Again do you have any data/studies to back that up? In my country devout Christians overwhelmingly tend to vote for right wing/libertarian economic policies (ie policies that benefit corporations, greedy CEOs, crass consumerism, etc) "Maybe a cathedral or wonderfully built historical building can inspire some awe in me (and as you say art and music), but when I think of awe of think of things like the mystery of Consciousness, the Universe, quantum physics and stuff like that." So then you agree material possession can cause "awe"? Everything you own, every person you love, you lose when you die. Everything material will fall from your grasp. You own nothing, you only borrow. You need examples? Name any possession you covet or any person you love. If you read the basic life story of Gautama Buddha, that would explain it best. I don't care about who labels themselves Christians, it doesn't mean they're not going to be materialists too. You don't see too many 'straw hat monks' these days. And yes, I think many paintings and pieces of music can definitely inspire awe, but for me that's because they have some sort of hint of the divine in them. An ancient cathedral or temple or work of Nature will likely inspire more awe than a shopping mall, no matter how well designed the shopping mall. If someone would buy the Mona Lisa and treat it just as a private possession, locked away where only they could see it, it would be in a way sacrilegious. However, even the rich person who bought it would be kidding themselves if they imagined death wasn't going to easily take it away from them... and hence they're only borrowing it for a time. "Everything you own, every person you love, you lose when you die. Everything material will fall from your grasp. You own nothing, you only borrow." That will happen regardless if I embrace "materialism" or not. Again you need to clarify your terms, by materialism are you talking in the physical sense or the consumer sense? You seem to be using the two interchangeably (they're not the same thing). "If you read the basic life story of Gautama Buddha, that would explain it best." Actually I have read Siddartha ( a long time ago). I don't really think that speaks to the broader point though. People are generally happier when they have a certain amount of wealth and materials possessions (if you're referging to consumerism, which is what I suppose you're getting). Studies have shown people are generally happiest when they make about $70,000 a year (levels off after that), so obviously materialism can you make happy (up to a certain point anyways) "And yes, I think many paintings and pieces of music can definitely inspire awe, but for me that's because they have some sort of hint of the divine in them" Perhaps now you see them as having "divinity" in them, most likely because of their historical importance, but at one point they were essentially no more than mere possession for the wealthy (the Pyramids were essentially just large opulent status symbols for wealth farrows, essentially the equivalent of a large mansion)
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 26, 2021 18:33:25 GMT
possibly with their brains/selves fighting off the temptation to believe in superstitions or taking things as signs all around them as they are encountered throughout their daily lives? Or maybe their brains are wired to immediately write these things off as coincidences and bad habits that need to be shaken? Most people of any community (theist, atheist) believe in some form of superstition or other. Most people even know subconsciously that superstitions they believe in are not true but sill believe anyway. Airlines like Lufthansa and Cathay Pacific do not have a 13th row. The fact that atheists claim (or theists think that atheists claim) not to believe in one specific unproven entity (God) doesn't mean atheists are not a believer of superstition. Superstitious beliefs reportedly helps in reducing anxiety and hence humans are superstitious. They will continue to do so even in the future. Although superstitions that directly harm many innocent people will get called out in modern times (witchcraft for one).
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Post by Stammerhead on Jul 26, 2021 18:43:56 GMT
Yeah, that other path is usually the wrong path. Atheism is as rigid as any fundamentalism. You swap out metaphysical Gods for the God of Materialism, and worship fame and possessions instead of what inspires awe. It’s a good thing you’re not closed minded but haven’t you heard of this awe inspiring thing called nature?
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jul 27, 2021 5:39:18 GMT
Atheism is as rigid as any fundamentalism. You swap out metaphysical Gods for the God of Materialism, and worship fame and possessions instead of what inspires awe. It’s a good thing you’re not closed minded but haven’t you heard of this awe inspiring thing called nature? I don't separate nature from the divine.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jul 27, 2021 5:46:15 GMT
Everything you own, every person you love, you lose when you die. Everything material will fall from your grasp. You own nothing, you only borrow. You need examples? Name any possession you covet or any person you love. If you read the basic life story of Gautama Buddha, that would explain it best. I don't care about who labels themselves Christians, it doesn't mean they're not going to be materialists too. You don't see too many 'straw hat monks' these days. And yes, I think many paintings and pieces of music can definitely inspire awe, but for me that's because they have some sort of hint of the divine in them. An ancient cathedral or temple or work of Nature will likely inspire more awe than a shopping mall, no matter how well designed the shopping mall. If someone would buy the Mona Lisa and treat it just as a private possession, locked away where only they could see it, it would be in a way sacrilegious. However, even the rich person who bought it would be kidding themselves if they imagined death wasn't going to easily take it away from them... and hence they're only borrowing it for a time. Again you need to clarify your terms, by materialism are you talking in the physical sense or the consumer sense? You seem to be using the two interchangeably (they're not the same thing). I don't need to do anything of the sort. I'm using the basic definition of Materialism.
I don't make any distinction between 'physical materialism' and 'consumer materialism', that seems absurd. All materialism is 'physical materialism'. Materialism isn't a spiritual thing, it's physical.
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Post by Stammerhead on Jul 27, 2021 7:35:38 GMT
It’s a good thing you’re not closed minded but haven’t you heard of this awe inspiring thing called nature? I don't separate nature from the divine. I realise that but people can still feel awe without divinity being attached. For me how this was all created is still a wonderful mystery that befuddles my mind when I actually take time away from my day-to-day activities of worshipping wealth and fame.
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